Poling Family to Receive $1.5 Million from Vaccine Court

No such a generous settlement. Estimates for caring for an autistic child over a life time are MUCH higher than that.

The heartbreak and stress of the family ….no amount of money would ever be enough. Just the thought of my daughter and her husband at some point dying and leaving their child alone drives them into depression and high anxiety. And concerning the cost of further testing to hopefully lessen the chance of causing autism: in my opinion, the cost is impractical ONLY if YOUR child is not in danger. The chance is there whether you are aware or not. As any parent, grandparent or other family member of an autistic child if the cost is too impractical.

I believe many will suggest that nine antigens in one day is a lot, and I do know that manufacturers have combined mmr+varicella, and dtap+hib, then polio by itself would
make nine vaccines yet three shots, and in my experience that isn’t outside of the norm. In fact that one, dtap+hib was off and on the vaccine schedule for awhile because of it’s history of more than normal reactions. Offit’s harmful vaccine propaganda has suggested 100’s would be safe at one time, and in truth, even the strongest believers in vaccine safety should take a deep breath and think about this man and his influence on medical care.

Is Hanah’s case a rare one? Likely for reasons not connected to the shots and autism. What makes her case rare is simply her postion of having a neurologist as her father and his ability to force the truth. Events as they are called are considered rare because the pharmaceutical companies have lobbied to make them rare “on the books”. Mitochondrial events can be transient, I’ve experienced this myself with my chemical sensitivity, the mechanisms of cause and effect are not well understood. The action of taking a spring walk and being exposed to a chemical such as a phenoxy can set up a transient mitochondrial poisoning that disrupts the basic atp energy systems. I do doubt if the chemicals in vaccines have been measured against the possibility of creating “transient mitochondrial disruption”. I ,because of my own MCS, know that in my case there is no underlying diagnosible mitochondrial disease, I’ve always doubted that testing for one before vaccines would be very helpful.

continued…
I could guess that within the vaccines there is something that is poison to some, but possibly something that is only poison in the presence of existing transient mitochondrial disruption, or perhaps disruption brought about by the accumulation of vaccine ingredients over time, or more rarely an existing genetic mitochondrial disease. The process of birth with all of the chemicals involved may be a bad time to introduce a birth shot, as well. However rare Hanah’s case may seem ,I see it as the hope for uncovering some of these more transient mitochondrial disruptions and understanding the dangers of vaccines a bit better.

re: “Unlike the Polings, the Cedillos were a test case for the Vaccine Court, so that their loss (based on theories related to injuries from the MMR vaccine) had and continues to have a broad impact.”

If I recall correctly, Hannah Poling started out as one of the test cases, but her case was conceded before actually going before a judge, thus avoiding setting a precedent. (It appears that for determination of the amount to be awarded the case did subsequently go before judges.)

The rationalizations one often hears are amazing:
- She does not have autism, just features of autism? As Lisa pointed out, autism is defined by it’s characteristics.
- She had pre-existing mitochondrial disorder? There is no evidence that this disorder existed before the vaccines, or that it would have caused a mental handicap without the vaccines.
- It was crazy to allow so many vaccines at once? That is just standard. Look at the CDC schedule:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2010/10_0-6yrs-schedule-bw.pdf
Routine recommendation of multiple vaccines. And check out the catch-up schedule here:
h t t p : / / w w w . cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2010/10_catchup-schedule-pr.pdf
Caution in giving multiple vaccines should be part of the recommendations to parents and practitioners. Just the other day I spoke with a pediatrician who said there is no increased risk in giving multiple vaccines. Crazy. You don’t have to be “anti-vaccine” to be concerned about giving 4, 6, 8 vaccines at once.
- The vaccines did not cause autism but just resulted in autism? Sheesh.

Michelle Cedillo’s trial was a pig circus. She never had a chance of winning!

The family could probably care less for the wealth, which it won’t actually be when all is said and done. The government settled the case to keep it under the radar, and the parents knew that the case would drag on if they did not settle it. I only rejoice that the family found some victory in one part of the battle, and realize how much it represents only a small piece of what they will continue to experience over a lifetime.

I have to disagree with you Lisa Jo. Having ‘features of autism’ is *not* the same as ‘autism’. If they were the same, then the description of Hannah Poling having ‘autism’ would’ve been made.

Lets also recall that the phrase ‘features of autism’ was originally made by Hannah’s doctor Andrew Zimmerman, not the gvmt or the vaccine court.

They had to say ‘features of autism’ *because* Hannah Poling did not get autism as a result of her vaccines. This can be checked by reading the Case Study that her father co-authored and listing out the ‘features’ or ’symptoms’ that the vaccine was adjudged to have caused in Hannah.

fever to 38.9°C
inconsolable crying
irritability
lethargy
refused to walk
waking up multiple times in the night
having episodes of opisthotonus
no longer normally climb stairs
Low-grade intermittent fever
generalized erythematous macular rash
spinning
gaze avoidance
disrupted sleep/wake cycle
perseveration
expressive language was lost
chronic yellow watery diarrhea
appetite remained poor for 6 months
body weight did not increase
decline on a standard growth chart
atopic dermatitis
slow hair growth
generalized mild hypotonia
toe walking
normal tendon reflexes.

On that list, three, possibly four symptoms could be found or incorporated into the DSM IV autism checklist. Certainly not enough to say that the vaccine caused autism but enough to say that some of the features of autism were caused.

Thats my take anyway.

Kev – clearly Hannah has physical issues as well as those that would be included in an ASD evaluation/dx.

But having interviewed some major diagnosticians (Drs. James Coplan and Susan Levy, both of whom are VERY mainstream), I’m told that an autism diagnosis is made simply on the basis of having the right symptoms at the right age. That is, the dx has nothing to do with the REASONS for the symptoms.

I would imagine that, depending upon the evaluations and evaluators, the various symptoms you mention (perseveration, lack of eye contact, speech/communication delays, etc.) might or might not be sufficient for a straight “autism” diagnosis… my strong guess is that they (along with the related associated developmental issues) would certainly be enough for a PDD-NOS dx, which is solidly on the autism spectrum.

Lisa

This is the first time I saw the “generalized erythematous rash”, my son continues to occasionally get this rash since that time over 8 yrs ago. Sadly my friend’s baby had most of the symptoms the day he died ,five days after his dpt at age seven months, rash included. “the exceptions concern walking and motor skills.. he hadn’t lived to reach those milestones” When my friend took him to the doc the day after the shot, he said, “normal reaction, don’t be so worried”, the next day back in he said, a cold and maybe you fed him something that caused stomach upset, the fifth day when she took him to Hopkins, they said, just a virus, later that day at the docs office she was told to drive him immediately to University Hospital, where he died. No Vaers report was ever filed! Hopkins settled with her quietly. Diagnosis, atypical Kawasaki…yep five days after his round of shots.

But Lisa Jo, Andrew Zimmerman *is* an autism specialist and diagnostician. You’re extrapolating a few ‘maybes’ away from something that actually DID happen – Andrew Zimmerman failed to give Hannah a diagnosis of ASD. He gave her a diagnosis of ‘features of autism’ and he was the diagnostician ‘on the ground’ so to speak.

Lets also not forget that the same Case Study was co-authored by one Jon Poling – Hannah’s dad. Taken together surely this has to be awarded more weight than what any other diagnostician *might* have done in the same circumstances?

Kev and Lisa Jo, Autsim or “autism like symptoms” don’t really matter. Who cares! Autism is simply a term from the psychiatric DSM-IV manual. It’s nothing but a smokescreen. It provides an alibi for the drug companies who added mercury to vaccines at levels 250 times higher than hazardous waste levels (based on toxicity characteristics). It provides an alibi for the CDC, FDA, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the other drug company cronies who are responsible for the safety of our children. It provides an alibi for the pediatricians who administered this poison. It provides an alibi for health insurance companies so they don’t have to pay for treatment for these sick kids. It provides an alibi for psychiatrists so they can force powerfull anti-psychotic drugs on these kids who are already terribly confused.

There will never be an identifiable cause for autism. There are though 19 published papers which identify the underlying medical condition of autism as neuroinflammatory disease. My favorite is ‘ Neuroglial activation and Neuroinflammation in the Brain of Patients with Autism’. This also was published by John Hopkins University. Now, do you want to debate whether mercury, a known neurotoxin, added to childhood vaccines at levels 250 times higher than what the EPA identifies as hazardous waste, causes neuroinflammatory disease? Do you want to debate whether brain damaged kids behave in a way so that some psychiatrist can label them as somewhere on the ’spectrum’?

Addressing the issue of definition, the DSV-IV excludes autism “if specific causation can better explain the condition” and goes on to mention various physical conditions.

However — DSM-V is likely to include this line from the ICD-10:

In some cases the disorder can be shown to be due to some associated encephalopathy but the diagnosis should be made on the behavioural features.

So, the DSM-V will consider a diagnosis of “autism” even with other underlying causation bringing the DSM into alignment with the ICD.

In other words, after the update, the “exclusionary” nature of an autism diagnosis (you aren’t supposed to diagnose autism with other impairments affecting mental performance under the DSM-IV), to which few clinicians have adhered in the last five years anyways, will be a thing of the past.

This is similar to the debate about IQ and autism, when it was decided to remove the requirement of an impaired IQ for an official diagnosis.

Encephalopathy and other conditions caused by dangerously high fevers definitely result in neurological impairment. The debate is simply if something with a known etiology is the same as those cases for which the etiology is unknown.

Personally, I would call it “encephalopathic autism” (et cetera) because it is specific and identifiable. Mixing everything together as “autism” is akin to grouping all “cancer” together — good for generalization, but not helpful when seeking treatments, cures, or supports.

Well at least one of your so called experts talks rubbish. Hannah Poling may or may not be autistic according to with which high flown terminology she is described but I would say ten of the symptoms listed are commonly found in autism, they certainly are in the 200 or so that I know.

Surely Boyd Haley showed the track for this condition, combine mercury with elevated testosterone and get a toxin many times more powerful that destroys/damages neurons and harms the CNS that could open the way to autism. Baron-Cohen and John Thomas Manning showed that testosterone flows through autism familes and is the single biggest anomaly found in amniotic fluid taken from mothers whose children became autistic.

Incidentally my claim that there are no unvaccinated autistic people in Britain grows stronger every day. Every day over fourteen years during which no one (not one) has come forward to rebut this claim.

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.

” having the right symptoms at the right age. That is, the dx has nothing to do with the REASONS for the symptoms.”
Autism symptoms is not the same as having autism. They didn’t say “met all the autism criteria”. And it does make a difference. Lead poisoning has very close to the same ’symptoms’ as autism and it’s be very important to know it wasn’t autism but lead poisoning and where the exposure is coming from. But as long as that child presents with symptoms and before a certain age, doctors diagnose it as autism?
I also disagree with “(1) Hannah did indeed develop an autism spectrum disorder as a result of vaccinations in combination with an underlying disorder and that” It’s the underlining hereditary disorder that worsened after vaccines that resulted in autism-like symptoms. Had there not been the mitochondrial disorder, Hanah probably wouldn’t be vaccine injured.

Hannah Poling received 5 shots to protect against 9 diseases on a single day. She developed fever following that series of vaccines. Because she has an existing encephalopathy (presumably on the basis of a mitochondrial enzyme defect) and because worsening of an existing encephalopathy following measles-containing vaccine is a compensible injury, Hannah Poling was compensated.

Thanks for your comment, Alison, but now I’m really confused.

You say she had an existing encephalopathy that was exacerbated by the vaccines? But wouldn’t something like that have symptoms that would have been identifiable prior to the vaccinations? Or is it the case that brain injury was asymptomatic prior to the vaccines? My understanding was that the pre-existing condition was mitochondrial disorder?

Meanwhile – if the vaccines caused Hannah’s condition to deteriorate to the point where the symptoms could reasonably be diagnosed as, say, PDD-NOS – how is this different from saying “the vaccines worsened Hannah’s condition such that she was now diagnosable with an autism spectrum disorder?”

Lisa

My understanding is that this is fairly typical for mitochondrial enzyme defects, in that she worsened during the second year of life. This would have happened independent of whether she had received vaccines that caused fever or had ear infections that caused fever or never had fever. One could argue that the stress of fever (from whatever cause) allowed her symptoms to first manifest, but they would have manifested at some time. Samuel Berkovic has similarly shown that children with sodium channel transport defects are more likely to manifest their first seizure if they got a vaccine that caused fever. But if you look at the children who did and those who didn’t have their first seizure with vaccines, there is no difference in neurological outcome.

Don’t forget, there was no *ruling* in this case — it was settled and only the dollar amount was decided via judicial special master. There was no legal finding, only a settlement.

Not a rare thing in medical cases. Without a legal ruling, people can read into this mess whatever they want.

Good point, CS.

Hannah Poling did have symptom’s prior to those vaccines, but most parents or doctors don’t always do genetic testing unless those symptom’s present as very severe. And like the show Mystery Diagnosis, diagnosis sometimes takes a while to get.

Encephalopathy causes can be a few things, one of them mitochondrial dysfunction.

I never read where she had symptoms before her shots, can someone point me to that info. Thanks!

Hi Lisa,

I have really enjoyed many of the recent blog entries, but I think you really missed the boat on this one.

Just a reminder, autism diagnosis requires a minimum of 6 behaviors and each of them must be beyond a minimum threshold of severity.

Here are the concession and the damages award:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/the-vaccineautism-court-d_b_88558.html

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/CAMPBELLSMITH.%20DOE77082710.pdf

Please note that the entire case is about encephalopathy. Encephalopathies are in no way related to autism; different parts of the brain are affected, the diagnosis, prognosis and treatments are entirely different.

Like a great many other diseases or injuries to the brain, encephalopathies can cause some behaviors similar to autism—but this in no way suggests they are in anyway related to autism.

The wording in the decision is very clear. The concession was for an encephalopathy and the encephalopathy resulted in the seizure disorder.

Please note that the court was very careful each time to use the clinicians’ exact wording “features” of autism.

The word features is a vague, undefined word that has no diagnostic meaning. This simply refers to encephalopathy caused behaviors that are similar to those seen in autism. At the time of the concession, none of the documented behaviors had reached the severity threshold required for autism.

The claim that the Poling case was an award for autism is simply not true.

W&N

Hi Lisa,

Just to tidy up a couple of details:

According to the records she received 5 vaccines.

The statement that vaccines “resulted” in the autism doesn’t exist in any of the documents and is an outright fabrication.

The Mito disorder was congenital–the exact mutation that caused it was identified.

The court didn’t determine that there was an injury–encephalopathy is a table injury. So the family automatically “won”. Thus the claim that this case is proof of anything is really absurd.

And DVIC has corrected the error and explicitly explained that the case wasn’t about autism

W&N

Hi Kev,

You wrote: ” Lets also not forget that the same Case Study was co-authored by one Jon Poling”

You mean this Jon Poling right?
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/23/9/1090.full.pdf+html

The situation has become completely surreal.

We have this long history of completely bogus character assassination of legitimate scientists.

On the other hand, we have a long list of the most egregious moral failings on the part of the vaccine critics which we are suppose to ignore.

So Dr. Poling acted unethically and flagrantly dishonestly to his co-works and his editor.

His apology (http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/23/9/1090.full.pdf+html) is a remarkable read.

1. his excuse is the forgot he was suing.

2. He complains about third-parties divulging his child’s identity. Wouldn’t that be Mr. Kirby acting completely unethically by publishing without permission a minor’s confidential medical information?

3. Just to set the record 100% straight, Dr. Poling tells us exactly what the concession was: encephalopathy. Not autism.

No wonder none of the vaccine critics want to bring up these facts.

W&N

Anyone can look at the vaccine schedule that Twyla provided and look at the vaccines Hannah Poling had that day. There are no vaccines scheduled for 19 mths of age and the MMR and Varicella certainly were not recommended at 19 mths of age. This goes along with previous interviews that those vaccines were catch-up vaccines, which were late due to Hannah being ill. Other than the fact of the age of the vaccines which is pretty important, the reason for that could be mistaken since the CBC writer Sharyl Attkisson had a few things wrong such as the case was never ‘cealed’, any information in any article could be incorrect as well.
One also has to look at each of the vaccines Poling had.
MMR 12-15 months
Polio 6-18 months
Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis 15-18 months
Varicella 12-15 months
Haemophilus influenzae 12-15 months

A child could have the Polio at 6 months, Varicella at 12 months, and the MMR at 15 and so on but Hannah Poling had them all at 19 months and yes, one has to and should ask why. Hannah Polings case is rare just for the fact the vaccine schedule wasn’t followed.

Even my fully vaccinated children weren’t vaccinated on “schedule”.
When my nephew, birth year 1992 “became autistic” and suffered regression, the doc let this fly out of his mouth..”it appears to be a toxic encephalopathy” at the same time diagnosing my sister with “toxic neuropathy” …and that was just a guess he did not examine her..as it turns out she did have neuropathy ,her nervous system was not sending messages to her gi tract and she spent that summer on tpn. I don’t take diagnosis to have much value , like any other field it’s an educated guess until more facts are in. Maybe he was right, maybe he was wrong. The next diagnosis was MR, then one was certain he was fragilex and did the testing ..both of these docs were at Kennedy Kreiger, finally the same institution said, pdd-nos, then settled in on autism. She was told he should be institutionalized that as he got older she wouldn’t be able to “handle him”, he bolted, spun, growled , lashed out,held his ears, used side vision..he was quite the mess. He goes to community college now, shops at the mall, plays football with his brothers, and can dress and cook for himself. What would have happened if she believed in the medical profession? I used all of my sisters expensive evaluations to my benefit, I pretty much leave mine alone. The only things that I believe were helpful were the magnesium, vit d, and b12 shots. I don’t believe anyone has a real handle on fixing this, they are getting close, but sadly as these kids become adults they herd them with thimerosal laden flu shots in the ready. Are they attempting to keep them from healing?

Alison Singer, it is completely speculative to say “This would have happened independent of whether she had received vaccines that caused fever or had ear infections that caused fever or never had fever.” How can you claim to be so pro-science and yet make a statement like that which has absolutely no basis in fact?

One often hears that if vaccines can cause encephalitis etc., then so could natural infections and fevers. It is true that natural infection with viruses such as measles has some risk of encephalitis. (And this actually lends credence to the reports of encephalitis arising from vaccines.) But, when I was a child before these vaccinations existed, everyone came down with measles, mumps, etc., and the autism rate was much much lower than today.

Hannah’s vaccine reaction was quite evident, and she was never the same after that. To say this would have happened anyways is just plain stupid. I’m not saying that you’re stupid; clearly you are an intelligent woman; but that is a stupid thing to say. And you are completely ignoring that many vaccine ingredients are known to cause inflammation, and that there is a lack of research on the effects of mutliple vaccine given together.

W&N said, “Just to tidy up a couple of details: According to the records she received 5 vaccines.” Yes, but two of the vaccines were three-in-ones (MMR and either DPT or DTaP), so that comes to nine vaccines.

Sandy, on the routine CDC vaccine schedule I linked to you can count:

7 vaccines at two months, or 8 if the Hep B is also received.

7 vaccines at four months

6 vaccines at six months, or 9 if the flu shot & HepB & polio are received

10 vaccines at 12 months if all are received at that visit

13 vaccines at 15 months if all are received at that visit

7 vaccines at 18 months if all are received at that visit

Yes, it does not say 9 vaccines at 19 months. The point is, the routine schedule recommends giving many vaccines at once.

The CDC advises “Simultaneously administering all vaccines for which a person is eligible is critical, including for childhood vaccination programs, because simultaneous administration increases the probability that a child will be vaccinated fully at the appropriate age (1). A study conducted during a measles outbreak demonstrated that approximately one third of measles cases among unvaccinated but vaccine-eligible preschool children could have been prevented if MMR had been administered at the same visit when another vaccine was administered (12)…

“Depending on vaccines administered in the first year of life, children aged 12–15 months might receive up to nine injections during a single visit (MMR, varicella, Hib, pneumococcal conjugate, diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis [DTaP], IPV, hepatitis A, HepB, and influenza [seasonal] vaccines). ..”
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5515a1.htm

Yes, people have a choice on when to get vaccines and whether to spread them out. And these days with the internet and all the vaccine-safety activism, average parents are more likely to think twice before accepting 9 vaccines at once. But back when we had complete trust in the CDC, we just followed the recommendations. These recommendations are irresponsible and causing some children serious harm.

barbaraj said, “I never read where she had symptoms before her shots, can someone point me to that info.” My understanding is that she was an exceptionally bright and sociable girl. But she was somewhat sickly. As her shots began in infancy, it is quite possible that there was a cumulative effect on her immune system and mitochondria, which crested when she received those 5 shots containing 9 vaccines.

I like this article by John Gilmore, from Spectrum Magazine:
http://www.devdelay.org/newsletter/articles/pdf/403-annalyzing-hannah-poling.pdf

From the list written by Hannah’s father, which Kev provided in his comment above:

“spinning, gaze avoidance, perseveration, expressive language was lost” – all key autism characteristics

“fever, rash, disrupted sleep, diarrhea” – not part of the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria, but very common in autism – and interesting to note that these are consistent with health issues listed on Lisa Jo’s recent questionnaire “fevers, skin disorders, sleep issues, gastrointestinal issues” — all of which received significant response from readers. And Hannah had/has seizures, also common with autism and listed in Lisa’s survey.

Hannah Poling’s case is an obvious case of vaccines causing autism. I can understand people arguing about whether or not vaccines cause most autism, whether or not vaccines benefit most children, whether or not vaccines create a risk of health issues for most children — but to argue that Hannah Poling did not become autistic due to vaccines requires all sorts of convoluted arguments which basically don’t make sense.

Twyla, you’re speculating on the vaccine ranges. Depending on what vaccine you look at, there’s a 3, 6 to 12 months range to give the vaccine; there is no set month. At 6 months old you can nor count the IPV since that has a range of 6 months to 18 months. You’re speculating children always get that vaccine at age 6 months.
The point is Hannah Poling’s vaccines were not following the recommended schedule.
And about that trust of the CDC and activism? My mother did all that prior to internet. It had nothing to do with the CDC or activism. It shouldn’t had taken the internet for parents to become pro active in their children’s medical care. The year 2000 was not all that log ago, either and by that time Wakefield and the MMR connection was already there.

It’s also speculation that any vaccine caused her health issues prior, and that is wasn’t due to being born with mitochondria disorder. There’s many written area’s where it’s stated Hannah was delayed on learning to walk and previous to all those vaccines, she had a below 18 month age vocabulary. It’s also written due to all her illnesses, the parents chose to delay her vaccines.
Mitochondrial –encephalopathy also known as maternal inheritance. Unfortunate and very sad, this disorder is very dangerous and what
Alison said could be very true and not stupid at all. She wasn’t talking about encephalitis and I’m not sure why you brought that into it.

This case is unlike all the others and may one day help to diagnose Mitochondrial disorders prior, but the evidence out there is the out come is grim regardless of vaccine or not.

– Alison Singer, it is completely speculative to say “This would have happened independent of whether she had received vaccines that caused fever or had ear infections that caused fever or never had fever.” How can you claim to be so pro-science and yet make a statement like that which has absolutely no basis in fact? –

– My understanding is that she was an exceptionally bright and sociable girl. But she was somewhat sickly. As her shots began in infancy, it is quite possible that there was a cumulative effect on her immune system and mitochondria, which crested when she received those 5 shots containing 9 vaccines. –

You shouldn’t be so quick to to question one’s statements without any basis of facts and then turn around and do the same

Anyway, I think we’re all in agreement… it was a lot of vaccines, but there was an underlying problem which was either triggered or exacerbated by the vaccines.

She was awarded a settlement based on that, no actual ‘ruling’ was made either which way however and moving forward, nothing changes.

That’s about the jist of it?

With mito, a child could have the disorder and be apparently quite healthy – but an insult to the system (either a natural form of an illness OR a vaccination) could “set it off,” leading to major symptoms. When Alison says that Hannah would have developed symptoms with or without vaccinations, she could well be right, though we’ll never know.

Here’s the issue, though: IF, as I am told by the top diagnostician at Children’s Hospital in Philadelphia, the REASONS for autistic symptoms have nothing to do with the validity of a diagnosis, then IF Hannah has the symptoms of an autism spectrum disorder THEN she has an autism spectrum disorder. Period.

I don’t believe that we’re in the midst of an autism epidemic caused by vaccines! But in this case, I am troubled by what looks like an awful lot of word play intended to separate Hannah Poling’s symptoms from “autism spectrum disorder.”

From what I can figure out, the child had an undiagnosed mitochondrial disorder which led to a terrible vaccine reaction. The reaction involved the development of symptoms which, in any other child, would lead to an autism spectrum diagnosis. You can mince words all you like, but I’ll bet you money that if Hannah were NOT Jon Poling’s daughter, and the vaccine court had not been involved, she would certainly wind up receiving services on the basis of an ASD diagnosis.

We know vaccines can cause reactions. We know many of those reactions are neurological. We know that neurological problems in a very young child can manifest as symptoms of a constructed disorder presently called “ASD.” It seems self-evident that at least a few kids have vaccine reactions that lead to neurological injury that looks like autism… and if the Powers That Be work this hard to suggest that such an outcome is impossible, it creates nothing but Fear Uncertainty and Doubt among parents!

Lisa

Mitochondrial is a general term for many disorders. Mitochondrial –encephalopathy affects mainly the brain and nervous system, and most times will present while the child is very young regardless. You probably should expand your experts than just basing off of Philadelphia. A child with lead poisoning then would have autism, and that child wouldn’t. That child would have the affects of lead exposure. We are in the midst of an autism epidemic caused by some doctors obviously not caring about the cause of symptom’s, they simply just hand out a diagnosis based on behaviors they see. This would mean if vaccines were a cause, they wouldn’t care to investigate that or a brain tumor.
Regardless of who the child is, services for many disorders are pretty much the same. Her IEP probably wouldn’t have the primary of autism, either. It’s probably be listed as OHI and she’d get O.T and Speech just as a child would who had lead poisoning or Down Syndrome. Symptoms of autism does not mean autism, sensory disorder is a diagnosis all to itself aside from autism. You can have sensory disorder and not have autism, but still have some autism-like symptoms due to SD.

The fact is due to Mitochondrial –encephalopathy, Hannah Poling did have a vaccine reaction that made the affects of Mitochondrial –encephalopathy, mainly the brain and nervous system, worse. Maybe if Hannah had the vaccines at the recommended ages the vaccines wouldn’t had triggered a reaction, but it’s still unclear if another child with the same genetic disorder would have the same reaction as Hannah did. In the medical world, Mitochondrial –encephalopathy discovery is relatively new at only 26 years. Look up Mitochondrial -encephalopathy, it’s scary. It’s progressive and fatal and there really isn’t any known treatment for it but to treat affects area’s at the time they present, like vaccine reaction.
This really is only good news for the Polings, maybe those who suspect Mitochondrial –encephalopathy but it doesn’t do much for the autism community as a whole.

Hannah developed autism after getting vaccines. Unfortunately it is likely that she represents at least a certain proportion of other autistic children also. A quick search of google scholar showed a study of 120 kids daignosed with autism. Over 7% also had mitochondrial dysfunction.

If you look at the “genetic” autism research, you will find that what comes up again and again is links with chromosomes that effect mitochondria.

Then there is the problem that environmental mercury exposure can damage the mitochondria as well.

Sandy, I think you may be wrong about Hannahs’ diagnosis. Encephalitis means brain inflamation of any cause. Anyone who has had brain inflammation has had encephalitis. Hannah has a mild mitochondrail disorder. She has also has had encephalitis caused by a vaccine reaction. She is not dying as far as I know any more than any other child with autism, 7% of whom may well have mitochondrial dysfunction as well.

I have heard that she and her mother share the same mild mitochondrial disorder, but the mother, who of course did not get as many shots, never developed autism, but is in fact a highly functioning professional.

And the idea that shots in combo are as safe as individual shots has of course never been tested..

Are Hannahs’ records sealed? if not where are they available/to whom have they been released?
Sealing records is behavior you expect from big companies anxious to protect their bottom line, not a government agency supposed to be dedicated to peoples’ health. Perhaps we should also seal the record of the next place that gets salmonella in their eggs. It might put people off eating eggs after all..

Stuart Duncan said, ” I think we’re all in agreement… it was a lot of vaccines, but there was an underlying problem which was either triggered or exacerbated by the vaccines.” There is no evidence that this mitochondrial condition would have existed without the vaccines. If it did exist, there is no evidence that it would have caused her significant problems without the vaccines.

SD also said, “She was awarded a settlement based on that, no actual ‘ruling’ was made either which way…” A concession was made based on review by the medical staff. This is significant.

Encephalopathy- Encephalitis does not equal the same thing. Encephalopathy can have different causes however in this case, we know it’s genetic passed from the mother to the child.
Mitochondrail disorder is a vague term which encompasses many disorders, it’s a general statement so when there’s a study stating 7 percent may have mitochondrail dysfunction is not telling you what exact disfunction it is.

The government did not seal the case, it’s standard procedure to keep this information confidential until the settlement is completed. They were in the process of completing the settlement when someone leaked the information to the press, and one wonders just who that might had been.

This mitochondrial condition did exist prior to vaccines, we already know it was passed down from the mother. Mothers pass it to their children regardless of gender, but if a male is born with it, they later do not pass it to the child. Vaccines did not cause this child’s mitochondrial condition. There is however no evidence that had the child had the vaccine schedule that this could had been avoided. One vaccine that day could had resulted in no reaction at all. This case is all based on the fever that was triggered by vaccines which is a common side effect, but also a common side effect with the common cold or flu.

RE: Lisa at 6:29 a.m. Excellent comment! I actually do believe that “we’re in the midst of an autism epidemic caused by vaccines” but I respect your having a different opinion, and I really appreciate your acknowledging that vaccine reactions resulting in autism do happen, even if neither of us (nor our government) can say how often this occurs. I really appreciate your statements that “in this case, I am troubled by what looks like an awful lot of word play intended to separate Hannah Poling’s symptoms from ‘autism spectrum disorder,’” and “You can mince words all you like, but I’ll bet you money that if Hannah were NOT Jon Poling’s daughter, and the vaccine court had not been involved, she would certainly wind up receiving services on the basis of an ASD diagnosis.” I believe I have read that Dr. Poling says his daughter was indeed diagnosed with autism, but I can’t put my fingers on that quote.

re: “We know vaccines can cause reactions. We know many of those reactions are neurological. We know that neurological problems in a very young child can manifest as symptoms of a constructed disorder presently called ‘ASD.’ It seems self-evident that at least a few kids have vaccine reactions that lead to neurological injury that looks like autism… and if the Powers That Be work this hard to suggest that such an outcome is impossible, it creates nothing but Fear Uncertainty and Doubt among parents!”
Very well said!

re Sandy: “we already know it was passed down from the mother”. If we know this, then as Hera pointed out, consider the fact that her mother fully functioning. She is a professional nurse and lawyer, speaks in full sentences, fell in love and got married and takes care of her children, and as far as I have heard is in good health. Her mother did not receive the number of vaccines that babies/children receive today, and presumably came down with the usual illnesses and fevers that are typical in childhood.

re: W&N “Encephalopathies are in no way related to autism; different parts of the brain are affected, the diagnosis, prognosis and treatments are entirely different.”

Actually, “encephalopathy” is a broad term with many categories. Per the NIH:

“What is Encephalopathy?
“Encephalopathy is a term for any diffuse disease of the brain that alters brain function or structure. Encephalopathy may be caused by infectious agent (bacteria, virus, or prion), metabolic or mitochondrial dysfunction, brain tumor or increased pressure in the skull, prolonged exposure to toxic elements (including solvents, drugs, radiation, paints, industrial chemicals, and certain metals), chronic progressive trauma, poor nutrition, or lack of oxygen or blood flow to the brain. The hallmark of encephalopathy is an altered mental state.”
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/encephalopathy/encephalopathy.htm

It doesn’t make sense to say that such a broadly defined word does not apply to autism.

As Sandy pointed out, encephalitis is not the same as encephalopathy:

Per h t t p : / / w w w .nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/encephalitis.html

Encephalitis is an inflammation of the brain. The usual cause is a viral infection, but bacteria can also cause it. Cases can range from mild to severe. For mild cases, you could have flu-like symptoms. Serious cases can cause

•Severe headache
•Sudden fever
•Drowsiness
•Vomiting
•Confusion
•Seizures

IMO, the question is no longer whether vaccines can and sometimes do cause autism. Some of the questions are: how often this happens, why and how this happens, what are susceptibility factors, how can our vaccine program be made safer, do the benefits outweigh the risks for each vaccine on the schedule at such an early age, how can vaccine injuries be prevented, how can vaccine injuries best be treated, what are the longterm effects of giving so many vaccines in relation to the many immune system disorders which have dramatically increased during the past 25 years such as diabetes, asthma, severe allergies, IBD, autoimmune disorders — as well as cognitive disorders which may well be related to neuroinflammation.

That’s a whole lot of questions which appear to be placed on hold while our government agencies and medical organizations stubbornly deny the problems.

At a National Autism Association (NAA) conference in 2008 Dr. Poling spoke about mitochondrial dysfunction. During the talk he read off a list of symptoms associated with mitochondrial dysfunction. He asked for a show of hands from parents if their child exhibited these symptoms. Close to 90% of attendees raised their hands for almost every symptom of mitochondrial dysfunction. This is not rare at all for children with the autism label.

Encephalopathy can be broad term, and have different causes, one being mitochondrial dysfunction = mitochondrial encephalopathy = passed down from the mother. You’d have to do a little scientific research to figure out why the mother suffers no ill effects, at least apparent to the publics eye. No one really knows how it affects the mother and it really doesn’t matter. Many people with disabilities including autism become professional nurses and lawyers, speaks in full sentences, fell in love and got married and takes care of their children. Recently over this case I’ve read Hannah is speaking very well and doing great regardless of her mitochondrial encephalopathy and vaccines.
People want to imply this is all caused by and the result of vaccines, yet the child had uncommon vaccines at an uncommon age, had an existing disorder which a trigger to make that disorder worse can probably be many things, will affect that child’s life all her life and if she has children, can pass it onto them. Instead of the focus being on autism, it should be on specific mitochondrial disorders.

Mitochondrial -encephalomyopathy includes the 22 symptoms
Developmental delay <– autism symptom
Neurological problems <– autism symptom
Deafness
Exercise intolerance
Lactic acidosis
Increased level of amino acids in plasma
Muscle wasting
Reduced reflexes
Ataxia
Poorly muscled build
Small head
Mental retardation <– autism symptom
Abnormal nerve conduction
Seizures
Short stature
Droopy eyelids
Impaired vision
Calcification inside skull
Hearing impairment
Behavioral problems <– autism symptom
Dilated cerebral ventricles
Increased body hair

Hi Lisa,

There is lots of noise and miss-direction surrounding this story, but it comes down to one simple question: what was the concession?

Answer: encephalopathy.

This is what all the court documents say.

This is what Dr. Poling has written.

However, this very simple fact has been continually misrepresented by the vaccine critics.

DVIC corrected this error 2.5 years ago in a letter written to Mr. Kirby about the Poling case:

“DVIC has reviewed the scientific information concerning the allegation that vaccines cause autism and has found no credible evidence to support the claim. Accordingly, in every case under the Vaccine Act, DVIC has maintained the position that vaccines do not cause autism, and has never concluded in any case that autism was caused by vaccination.”

There is no way around it. The award was not for autism and claims to the contrary are not true.

Finally, you wrote:
“…and two years ago the court determined that Hannah was, indeed, vaccine injured.”

Please review how table injuries work.

Everyone agreed the child had an encephalopathy. Encephalopathy is listed in the table and so the family wins an award.

But in no way can that be argued as a valid determination of an actual vaccine injury.

Despite the harsh rhetoric, the vaccine court is incredibly loop-sided in the sense that it is grossly rigged in the families’ favor.

W&N

Hi Twyla,

Your 11:00pm post is fascinating.

Big picture here, the vaccines-cause-autism crowd have miss-represented the Poling case for more than 2.5 years and fabricated statements they claimed to be in the rulings… and you choose to give this a pass.

Instead you decided to comment on the number of vaccines. You are simply wrong.

MMR is by definition one vaccine. Claiming otherwise is both contrary to the meaning of the word vaccine and biologically speaking nonsense.

If the fact that your side hasn’t even been able to figure out what the word vaccine means, doesn’t give you pause to consider that maybe all of their arguments have been rejected because they are wrong, then I suppose you never will consider this possibility.

W&N

Hi Twyla,

A wise person wrote:

“Encephalopathies are in no way related to autism; different parts of the brain are affected, the diagnosis, prognosis and treatments are entirely different.”

You can feel free to Google diagnosis or prognosis and compare what you find with autism.

W&N

W&N – I think this has become a battle of words.

IMO, one way or another, a small number of kids are vaccine injured each year, and the injuries result in symptoms.

I simply can’t believe that those symptoms are NEVER sufficient or specific enough to warrant an ASD diagnosis.

I don’t know the Polings, and I haven’t pored over Hannah’s records. But from everything I’ve read so far, it seems clear that the child has symptoms that can reasonably be understood to look an awful lot like an ASD.

We can battle over words (encephalopathy versus neurological symptoms versus “features of autism, etc.). But my bottom line concern is the insistence that no child could possibly develop “autism like symptoms” (aka a diagnosable ASD) as the result of a vaccine injury. I just don’t believe it – and if I (who am NOT a believer in a vaccine-initiated autism epidemic) can’t believe it, I’m guessing there are plenty of others who can’t.

Lisa

Lisa, I’m not sure where insistence that no child could possibly develop “autism like symptoms” is coming from, but you cant base a vaccine autism link off the Poling case to begin with. This is no typical run of the mill case, nor does it match much of the other thousands of cases waiting for the same court. The Poling child had a pre existing condition, and she didn’t have routine vaccines no matter what anyone says otherwise. An MMR is not given at 19 months and neither is the Varicella and
Haemophilus influenzae. You wont even be able to find accurate statistics since the age of the child wasn’t routine however you could locate children who may have had close to that same combo and see how many never had vaccine side effects as a result. I looked up my child’s vaccines and what he had. It doesn’t match the Poling’s child.
In this case, not so much the vaccines, but one should question the doctor who gave them to her. I at least wonder of her medical history made public, why that wasn’t considered prior to injecting so many vaccines.

Now any other case could be discussed what is vaccine injury, does it really cause autism, or a feature that results in autism-like behaviors? Such as seizures. After a routine vaccine, a child has their first seizure, which can cause brain damage. Is that autism? Or the affects of the seizure? Was the vaccine solely the trigger or the cause of the seizure?

re: “the child had uncommon vaccines at an uncommon age”. This is false. She had the routine vaccines. She had them at age 19 months, instead of at age 15 or 18 months. You think this makes a big difference? They would not have harmed her at age 15 or 18 months? Again, the CDC’s current advice says: “Simultaneously administering all vaccines for which a person is eligible is critical, including for childhood vaccination programs, because simultaneous administration increases the probability that a child will be vaccinated fully at the appropriate age… Depending on vaccines administered in the first year of life, children aged 12–15 months might receive up to nine injections during a single visit (MMR, varicella, Hib, pneumococcal conjugate, diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis [DTaP], IPV, hepatitis A, HepB, and influenza [seasonal] vaccines). ” But you’re saying that because she got these vaccines at age 19 months this is totally different?

W&N, there is no point arguing about whether the word “vaccine” means “shot” (in which case the DPT/DTaP and MMR are each just one vaccine), or whether these are each three vaccines because they are each vaccinating against three illnesses. I’m happy to say that Hannah received 5 shots vaccinating against 9 illnesses. This does not change anything about what happened.

And, I did Google encephalopathy. I posted part of what I found. The word has a very broad meaning, encompassing encephalitis (brain inflammation) and other forms of brain injury causing effects on cognition (such as brain tumors). Encephalopathy does not exclude autism.

Twyla- or at age 6 months or 12 months- I am not saying anything is totally different. I was suggesting you nor me knows if it would had made a difference. There is no way you nor I can depict for sure what each child’s vaccines were per the age range of vaccines. We simply cant assume on a might have had. 5 vaccines equalling against 9 diseases is not typical. And that wording does also make a difference to the general public and how they perceive what a vaccine is. 9 vaccines to anyone means 9 actual jabs.
Hannah did not have a typical vaccine schedule, there is no arguing that fact.
You cant just look up the broad term encephalopathy, with Hannah, we know exactly which she has. It does make a difference.

People win in vaccine court all the time. This case means little to the autism community, other than for those children who also were born with the same thing as Hannah and even then, Hannah isn’t the only person with that and had vaccines.

I’d like to point out that Sharyl Attkisson at CBS News in an update of her story reported that the real award for Hannah Poling could provide $20 million for lifetime care. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20015982-10391695.html

The government is making less and less sense in its adamant denials about autism and vaccines.

On Aug 3, 2010, at a hearing by U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Children’s Health, we learned that the numbers are really exploding and that environmental toxins are the trigger.

This is followed by the award given to Hannah Poling for the vaccine damage she suffered resulting in her autism.

The public isn’t going to buy the denials. There are thousands of parents with the same story as Hannah’s: My child was normal; my child became autistic after being vaccinated.
That is enough to make any parent scared to vaccinate.

It’s never been just about the science. It’s also about who will be held responsible if it’s clearly recognized that an unsafe, unchecked vaccine schedule has given us a generation of children with autism. Officials have everything at stake in this fight. No matter how much evidence piles up, the denials will only continue.

And this brings up the really big question: How are we ever going to pay of the lifetime care of almost a million autistic children when they reach adulthood and become dependent on the taxpayers to provide for their support?

Anne Dachel
Media editor: Age of Autism

And you’re right, the Cedillos lost. Their beautiful daughter Michelle is severely disabled. This happened directly following routine vaccinations. Where is justice for her and for hundreds of thousands of autistic children like her?

Anne Dachel
Media editor: Age of Autism

“There are thousands of parents with the same story as Hannah’s: My child was normal; my child became autistic after being vaccinated.
That is enough to make any parent scared to vaccinate”
This is not true, Hannah had been previously ill which resulted in those odd vaccines, and those ‘thousands’ also do not have Mitochondrial -encephalomyopathy which was passed from mother to child. If they all do, then it’s not the vaccines fault, but the fault of what the child was born with which when add a fever, the disorder gets worse. You do not need a vaccine to have a fever. The idea also isn’t to ’scare’ anyone to vaccinate except of the agenda of some. In 2008 that wasn’t the result and no settlement will result in scaring the public, either. The public will be more ’scared’ of fevers than vaccines.
Also, no one can predict a million children with autism will all need taxpayers to support them. Those million with autism are also not all the result of vaccines. Much of the public knows children with autism are making great progress than those who think those children will rely on taxpayers as adults. If that was the case, why bother with ABA, speech and so on if in the end the child will always be dependent? That’s just not the way it is.

Thanks Lisa, I really think you’ve opened up on this one.
BTW–remember out on Sept 14 in bookstores-
The Age of Autism—Mercury, Medicine,and A Man-Made epidemic by Dan Olmsted and Mark Blaxill
It promises to be an eye-opener.

Just to clarify: I haven’t changed my point of view.

That is to say, I am still quite certain that vaccines are not the cause of an epidemic of autism. In fact, the whole idea that there IS an epidemic of autism, IMO, remains highly questionable. What’s more, I certainly do not believe that the US Government has intentionally injured our children and then covered up the evidence so as to ensure a steady income from Big Pharma.

Nevertheless, I am know that some children are, in fact, injured by vaccines (hence the existence of the Vaccine Court). In this case, the vaccine court and others seem to be working awfully hard to reassure the public that vaccines couldn’t possibly have caused damage leading to symptoms diagnosable as an ASD. And so far as I can tell from information made publicly available, Hannah Poling’s symptoms are as similar to an ASD as “coughs, sneezes and related symptoms of the upper respiratory system” are to the common cold.

By carefully wording decisions to avoid the “A word,” I really do think the vaccine court and others are asking for increased public fear, uncertainty and doubt. And that, certainly, goes against the public interest.

Lisa

Sandy, Hannah had previously been ill with minor illnesses such as ear infections, but was meeting her developmental milestones, playful, social, and intelligent. She did not suffer from seizures, diarrhea, disrupted sleep, perseveration, loss of language, lethargy, chronic fevers, dermatitis, and more – until she had those 9 vaccines at once – or, if you prefer, call it 5 shots vaccinating her against 9 diseases.

I just found a good article, from 2008 full test version. I find it interesting that ear infections are now considered minor when they’re said to also be related to vaccines, but in the full text, it is noted to be severe and significant enough due to CHILD’s otitis media, her mother did not allow CHILD to receive the standard 12 and 15 month childhood immunizations. It’s also interesting that it was concluded that CHILD’s complex partial seizure disorder, with an onset of almost six years after her July 19, 2000 vaccinations, is not related to a vaccine-injury, meaning this child six years later is still suffering from the disorder she was born with, and the symptoms that go along with it.
This whole case makes it more interesting just due to the recent study of which many genes was located, and how many unknown genes may be out there that parents have yet to learn about.

“But, when I was a child before these vaccinations existed, everyone came down with measles, mumps, etc., and the autism rate was much much lower than today.”

No it wasn’t.

With the Poling case, one cant even pin-point a single vaccine as being the culprit. It could had been the theory of the MMR, or the popular theory of the DTaP, or the less talked about polio or varicella. Or was it all the vaccines combined at one time. Almost all vaccines can result with a fever, and 2 of the vaccines can result in a rash.

Aside from everyone coming down with childhood disease, most people didn’t keep the viruses or bacteria to themselves. I’m sure people didn’t intentionally spread germs, but just the same with rubella, the result was 11,000 miscarriages or therapeutic abortions and 20,000 cases of congenital rubella syndrome. Of these, 2,100 died as neonates, 12,000 were deaf, 3,580 were blind and 1,800 were mentally retarded. A child with other health issues and young can and do die from contracting the measles. We know healthy babies die from pertussis.

Nature have published the following blog entry that represents the confusion on this site and many others:

http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2010/09/us_vaccine_payout_provokes_con.html

Because there was no ruling, but a settlement, expect this to get messier and messier.

And, for what it is worth, my “autism” diagnosis included the statement I had developed “the traits of autism” following birth trauma. The official diagnosis is “traits of” but not “autism.” It is incredibly confusing for parents, certainly, and the cause of many debates between clinicians, researchers, and medical practitioners. Some would argue I am not “autistic” but have “traits” (a DSM-IV standard) while others would use the symptoms-based standard of the ICD-10 and consider me “autistic.” Both are valid, and contradictory.

I am “autistic” in Minnesota, but not California. Go figure. Does it really matter? My brain was affected by a complex arrival into this world. I don’t care what you call it — I know the cause and I know the symptoms.

From the Hannah Poling ruling:

“Respondent has conceded that petitioners are entitled to compensation due to the significant aggravation of Child Doc/77’s pre-existing mitochondrial disorder based on an MMR vaccine Table presumptive injury of encephalopathy, which eventually manifested as a chronic encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder and a complex partial seizure disorder as a sequel.

“Based on the persuasive factors supporting petitioner’s vaccine claim and respondent’s election not to challenge petitioner’s claim, the undersigned finds that petitioner is entitled to compensation under the Vaccine Program. Accordingly, a determination of damages is appropriate.”

From the Bailey Banks ruling:

“On 26 June 2002, the Petitioner filed a petition for compensation under the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 (Vaccine Act or Act)2 alleging that, as a result of the MMR vaccination received on 14 March 2000, his child, Bailey, suffered a seizure and Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis (“ADEM”),3 which led to Pervasive Developmental Delay (“PDD”),4 a condition from which he continues to suffer (the “Petition”)…

The Court found, supra, that Bailey’s ADEM was both caused-in-fact and proximately caused by his vaccination. It is well-understood that the vaccination at issue can cause ADEM, and the Court found, based upon a full reading and hearing of the pertinent facts in this case, that it did actually cause the ADEM. Furthermore, Bailey’s ADEM was severe enough to cause lasting, residual damage, and retarded his developmental progress, which fits under the generalized heading of Pervasive Developmental Delay, or PDD. The Court found that Bailey would not have suffered this delay but for the administration of the MMR vaccine, and that this chain of causation was not too remote, but was rather a proximate sequence of cause and effect leading inexorably from vaccination to Pervasive Developmental Delay.”
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/BANKS_CASE.pdf

I believe, as well, that we are in the midst of a vaccine induced epidemic. It’s possible, that we haven’t “hit” upon the actual cause because we are looking at too many things as separate entities, instead of consideration being given to the possible synergy involved. While the mmr, a longtime suspect would make good sense, given the live rubella content, the fact that we have never had a good animal model for rubella,and much of what we have learned has been a mix of anecdotal and the scientific in combo, the truth remains “it should remain a suspect”.If it were to be circulating rubella in a vaccinated mom or in a newly vaccinated child, why only some? That WHY could well be something else that is compromising the immune systems of” some” , perhaps the thimerosal, perhaps the early introduction of hepb, perhaps mom’s own circulating combo of antigens and heavy metals. Maybe it’s as simple as that, some children can’t clear their bodies of unwanted antigens because their immune systems are altered. I know one of my children was kept out of school for three weeks following her mmr because she developed neutropenia. How did I find out, when many, many are likely undiagnosed? Because she started shortly after that vaccine with infection after infection and I insisted she have a blood test. Why would I do that? Because she had Kawasaki shortly after her first mmr. How common and how ignored is this immune deficiency that I KNOW can occur after vaccine? Somewhere is this mix of vaccines and their effects I’m pretty certain lies the answer to autism.

The Nature article linked to by C.S. Wyatt above says, “the payment does not acknowledge a vaccine-autism link,” and Dr. Paul Offit says in this same article, “It’s a complicated story,” and Hannah’s symptoms which a doctor later used to diagnose her with autism “were part of a global encephalopathy,” which could have been caused by vaccines or fevers due to illness, and “whether or not vaccines cause autism is a scientific issue it therefore can be addressed in a scientific manner, and I think it has been”. All of this is just an attempt to throw up a smoke screen. He says that there is confusion, but he is trying to create confusion. This man, whose departmental chair is funded by Merck, and who made millions from developing a vaccine for rotavirus, has a vested interest in defending vaccines.

Both of the above cited cases – Hannah Poling and Bailey Banks – are cases where a child did not have autism until after an acknowledged vaccine reaction occurred. Both cases demonstrate specific autism etiologies, one involving mitochondrial disorder and the other demyelination. The decision on Bailey Banks specifically says this resulted in PDD, which most agree is on the autism spectrum (and yes we could debate this forever).

Autism is defined by behaviors, not etiology. These rulings focus on the specific etiology, and so some say that they do not prove autism causation. This is basically wordplay, made possible by the fact that no specific causes for autism have been officially accepted by mainstream medicine. Autism is still referred to as such a mystery, with no known cause, no known medical treatment – even though many parents and practitioners have witnessed causation and effective treatment.

The term “Encephalopathy” does not rule out autism. Encephalopathy is a broad category meaning “Any of various diseases of the brain,” “non-specific brain syndrome” or “Degenerative diseases of the brain”. According to http://www.medicinenet.com/encephalopathy/page2.htm , there are numerous kinds of encephalopathy, with various causes and symptoms, but “Despite the numerous and varied causes of encephalopathy, at least one symptom present in all cases is an altered mental state.” Bottom line is, the government acknowledges in both the Poling and Banks cases that vaccines can cause brain injuries with long-term affects.

Dr. Offit’s statement that “whether or not vaccines cause autism is a scientific issue it therefore can be addressed in a scientific manner, and I think it has been.” A few flawed epidemiological studies mostly done by people with vested interest is not a full investigation of these issues. As Sharyl Attkisson (CBS News reporter) and Dr. Bernardine Healy (former head of the NIH) have said, the government has not done basic research needed to answer this question, including study of the allegedly injured children, and a study comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children. H t t p : / / w w w . cbsnews.com/8301-500803_162-4090144-500803.html

But in the Poling and Banks cases two types of autism etiology are indeed addressed scientifically for two individual children on the spectrum. Yes, these cases do not address the issue of how prevalent are these conditions in the general population and among people with autism, which are also important questions. But looking at individuals is how to really examine the biological mechanisms.

A study by Laura Hewitson from the University of Pittsburgh comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated monkeys is currently underway, and will provided additional information of great interest to those concerned about autism and vaccines.

P.S. to C.S. Wyatt – My argument is only with Dr. Offit, not with what you posted. I appreciate your comment and all that you have to say about your experiences.

Hard to say where CBS obtained that document, considering there’s inconsistencies within the article to begin with. One would and should question the document since seizures were mentioned.

‘In sum, DVIC has concluded that the facts of this case meet the statutory criteria for demonstrating that the vaccinations CHILD received on July 19, 2000, significantly aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which predisposed her to deficits in cellular energy metabolism, and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder. Therefore, respondent recommends that compensation be awarded to petitioners in accordance with 42 U.S.C. § 300aa-11(c)(1)(C)(ii).
DVIC has concluded that CHILD’s complex partial seizure disorder, with an onset of almost six years after her July 19, 2000 vaccinations, is not related to a vaccine-injury.’

‘

Per a 2/25/2008 article by David Kirby on Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/government-concedes-vacci_b_88323.html

“Seven months after vaccination, the patient was diagnosed by Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, a leading neurologist at the Kennedy Krieger Children’s Hospital Neurology Clinic, with ‘regressive encephalopathy (brain disease) with features consistent with autistic spectrum disorder, following normal development.’ The girl also met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) official criteria for autism.”

Interesting article — discusses many aspects of this case and its implications.

I have read that mercury can cause mitochondrial disorders. Some of Hannah Poling’s vaccines contained mercury in the preservative thimerosal. Whether she would have had a mitochondrial disorder without this mercury exposure is unknown.

There are a few references to studies about mercury and mitochondria here:
http://www.safeminds.org/research/science-autism-mitochondria-mercury.html

Further studies can be found with a quick Google search on Mitochondria and Mercury.

Reagardless of what anyone has read or tries to insinuate towards vaccines, we already know the fact of which mitochondrial disorder Hannah has and it is hereditary. Vaccines had nothing to do with it.

Here’s a good read-
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2010/09/sharyl-attkisson-blogs-the-hannah-poling-settlement/

I asked Murphy and he said: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong, only vaccines are exception. Vaccines are safe.

Oops, slight correction to my comment about Dr. Paul Offit. It’s not a department chair — it’s a research chair. Per Sharyl Attkisson of CBS News:

“Then there’s Paul Offit, perhaps the most widely-quoted defender of vaccine safety.

“He’s gone so far as to say babies can tolerate ‘10,000 vaccines at once.’

“This is how Offit described himself in a previous interview: ‘I’m the chief of infectious disease at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia and a professor of pediatrics at Penn’s medical school,’ he said.

“Offit was not willing to be interviewed on this subject but like others in this CBS News investigation, he has strong industry ties. In fact, he’s a vaccine industry insider.

“Offit holds in a $1.5 million dollar research chair at Children’s Hospital, funded by Merck. He holds the patent on an anti-diarrhea vaccine he developed with Merck, Rotateq, which has prevented thousands of hospitalizations.

“And future royalties for the vaccine were just sold for $182 million cash. Dr. Offit’s share of vaccine profits? Unknown.

“There’s nothing illegal about the financial relationships, but to critics, they pose a serious risk for conflicts of interest. As one member of Congress put it, money from the pharmaceutical industry can shape the practices of those who hold themselves out to be ‘independent.’

“The American Academy of Pediatrics, Every Child By Two and Dr. Offit would not agree to interviews, but all told us they’re up front about the money they receive, and it doesn’t sway their opinions.

“Today’s immunization schedule now calls for kids to get 55 doses of vaccines by age 6.

“Ideally, it makes for a healthier society. But critics worry that industry ties could impact the advice given to the public about all those vaccines.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/25/cbsnews_investigates/main4296175.shtml

DanK, that’s a good one.

DanK

Yes, Twyla, mercury fungicides have been found to induce mitochondrial disease . I have a friend, who contacted me when she heard my son had erythema multiforme and suggested to me that it was mercury poisoning, this was prior to any consideration of autism, this lady’s husband had died of Toxic Epidermal Necrolysis after playing a round of golf on a “mercury fungicide” treated golf course.

re: Sandy’s comment 9/12 2:01 p.m.

Initially in 11/2007 the Division of Vaccine Injury Compensation of DHHS did not concede the seizure disorder, but subsequently on 2/21/2008 they reversed this and recommended “compensation for Hannah’s seizure disorder as sequela of her vaccine injury”.

Note on the second page of the recent decision:
“Respondent has conceded that petitioners are entitled to compensation due to the significant aggravation of Child Doc/77’s pre-existing mitochondrial disorder based on an MMR vaccine Table presumptive injury of encephalopathy, which eventually manifested as a chronic encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder and a complex partial seizure disorder as a sequela”.
http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/CAMPBELLSMITH.%20DOE77082710.pdf

A good video – the Poling family on Good Morning America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5Ru-Tp27AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15869795

Neurotoxicology. 2005 Jun;26(3):407-16.

Mitochondrial mediated thimerosal-induced apoptosis in a human neuroblastoma cell line (SK-N-SH).
Humphrey ML, Cole MP, Pendergrass JC, Kiningham KK.

Department of Pharmacology, Joan C. Edwards School of Medicine, Marshall University, Huntington, WV 25704-9388, USA.

Abstract
Environmental exposure to mercurials continues to be a public health issue due to their deleterious effects on immune, renal and neurological function. Recently the safety of thimerosal, an ethyl mercury-containing preservative used in vaccines, has been questioned due to exposure of infants during immunization. Mercurials have been reported to cause apoptosis in cultured neurons; however, the signaling pathways resulting in cell death have not been well characterized. Therefore, the objective of this study was to identify the mode of cell death in an in vitro model of thimerosal-induced neurotoxicity, and more specifically, to elucidate signaling pathways which might serve as pharmacological targets. Within 2 h of thimerosal exposure (5 microM) to the human neuroblastoma cell line, SK-N-SH, morphological changes, including membrane alterations and cell shrinkage, were observed. Cell viability, assessed by measurement of lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) activity in the medium, as well as the 3-[4,5-dimethylthiazol-2-yl]-2,5-diphenyltetrazolium bromide (MTT) assay, showed a time- and concentration-dependent decrease in cell survival upon thimerosal exposure…

…In cells treated for 24 h with thimerosal, fluorescence microscopy indicated cells undergoing both apoptosis and oncosis/necrosis. To identify the apoptotic pathway associated with thimerosal-mediated cell death, we first evaluated the mitochondrial cascade, as both inorganic and organic mercurials have been reported to accumulate in the organelle. Cytochrome c was shown to leak from the mitochondria, followed by caspase 9 cleavage within 8 h of treatment. In addition, poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase (PARP) was cleaved to form a 85 kDa fragment following maximal caspase 3 activation at 24 h. Taken together these findings suggest deleterious effects on the cytoarchitecture by thimerosal and initiation of mitochondrial-mediated apoptosis.

Ok Twyla, lets go with seizure complication which occured ‘6′ years after the fact of vaccines, and to be compensated. You’re then suggesting anything under the sun medical-wise can be blamed on vaccines and not the condition she was born with which also results in seizures. The public is really going to love that tid bit, and many are smarter than me to catch it.
Unfortunately, with this one case, the ’settlement’ in no way is an acknowledgment by the government that vaccines can cause autism or seizures. Sharyl Attkisson attempted that with her article, and many just know better. This case is far beyond a simple vaccine issue.

I feel bad that the settlement probably only covered legal expenses and cost of researching details and will do nothing to care for this child over her lifetime.

Sandy, I live in fear that my son may “start” with seizures, it’s not uncommon ,from what I understand, for autistic children to have this delayed part of the illness start at puberty. I don’t have the stats in front of my, yet I remember something perhaps in the 25% range. I don’t think Hannah’s delayed seizures are rare, girls these days start puberty at 8 or 9 about 2 to 3 years before menstruation, and for some reason, early puberty has been noted in autistic children ,as well. While we think science is on board with the mitochondrial conditions in relation to autism, I think there is much more to be uncovered . We don’t really understand the mutations, the dna breaks, the fact that they can occur both pre and post- natally, there needs to be more study to light shed on some of these genetic conditions and their origin . Do I change my child’s genetics when I introduce dna from vaccine? I can’t answer this.

Barbara, I’m not following your comment.

Autism, as it is understood and described in the diagnostic literature, is not a disease that “starts” with one set of symptoms and then progresses. In fact, it’s not a “disease” at all, nor is it progressive. Some kids with autism do develop mood or seizure disorders, but it’s by no means clear that the seizures or mood disorders come from the same source as the developmental delays (whatever that source may be).

Meanwhile, I REALLY don’t understand your question about DNA and vaccines. Are you suggesting that vaccines that include, for example, portions of a virus would somehow change a child’s DNA such that they are now part virus and part person? Or…??

Sorry, not getting the inferences here.

Lisa

This message pertains specifically to Alison Singer. Every once in a while something is sent to me that really just burns me up.

There is NOTHING more irritating than people who pretend that they have some sort of inside information that makes what they say meaningful on a topic. You, Alison Singer, appear to be one of those people…at least when it comes to my daughter, Hannah Poling.

While you may feel that your daughter was destined to be autistic, I would never pretend to know the first thing about why your daughter has the issues that she does. And you would do well to stop acting as though you have ANY credible knowledge about my child.

Nothing makes you look more like a puppet on a string than to spill out the garbage about Hannah having an encephalopathy PRIOR to the July 19, 2000 vaccines. The ONLY person ever saying that has been PAUL OFFIT, your employer. And, this is only his wishful thinking. Paul needs to use his MD to practice medicine. I think he forgot and thinks it stands for marketing director.

Thank you Terry! Right now I am giving you a standing ovation! NO ONE should presume anything about anyone else’s child. If someone in the media would like the truth laid out meticulously and accurately, they should interview the Polings, not the Offit/Singer/Synderman spin doctor’s.

I’m tired of Paul Offit trying to convince my Pediatrician that he must have missed something or failed or that regression “just happens”, and then convinced him not to believe anything I say that happens medically. Offit personally has made treating my son difficult by his arm chair diagnosing. He has absolutely no clue what autism is, how to treat it nor should have any opinions whatsoever to do with autism.

Hannah’s seizures are listed as part of her pre existing disorder, period. That’s sort of why occurred 6 years later….. they are not delayed seizures. They are not rare seizures. They sort of were expected seizures if anything. They’re part of her disorder which is not part of autism.

Regardless of science and mitochondrial conditions, don’t add autism to it. Science already discovered what Hannah has came from her mother. We already know that much about that mitochondrial disorder. Mitochondrial conditions/ disorder is a general term, most have actual medical names these days. Genetic is genetic, some do testing prior to having children but that goes along with only wanting to have children if they’re going to be perfect. DNA is every where. It can be tested of the smallest of things, and it’s also in the food we eat. If you’re suggesting vaccines can alter ones DNA, then I’m suggesting we’re doing that daily 24/7.

Seizures can occur for many different reasons. A certain percentage of children all over the word have seizures, and there’s different types of those as well as they can start at different ages. I’m sorry you have such fears about seizures, but it’s kind of like worrying about a child being hit by a car. You can do what you can to be proactive but there’s no way to stop it, if it does happen.

Hi, Teri, and welcome to Autism at About.com. I certainly appreciate your perspective, and would very much appreciate any light you can shed on the questions that are raised here. There seem to be a number of different stories about your daughter’s health overall, and we are all a bit confused about about the distinction (if any!) between “ecephalopathy,” “features of autism,” and “autism spectrum disorder.”

I just want to note, though, that I ask commenters on this site to refrain from making personal remarks to one another, since it takes away from the content of the conversation overall.

All the best,

Lisa

Hmmm, and this is why moderation is needed on this site. It really makes people think twice about having a conversation on any topic.

Terry Poling~ Alison Singer never attacked anyone, and it seems many people seem to be experts. No one deserves a direct personal attack as that.

“Alison Singer never attacked anyone…”
No, she simply spread untruthful information.
Which, if I were the parent, I’d construe as an attack.

Lisa “Autism, as it is understood and described in the diagnostic literature, is not a disease that “starts” with one set of symptoms and then progresses. In fact, it’s not a “disease” at all, nor is it progressive”

I don’t agree, I had a robust ,healthy , happy baby, that did slowly start to look ill, with a disease that “progressed” over time ,leaving him unable to speak, hug, play, one that gave him eczema, erythema multiforme, gi troubles, fevers. Did it stop , I don’t think so, as exampled by Friday, his school had a social, they played a little background music, he “HAD” to leave, he couldn’t stand the sounds, we went outside, a boy came up to him and said, we are playing football, you can’t play with us. ( yes I will take issue with that, I don’t pay this much money to have him treated poorly and in his four years at this school this is the first issue of this kind that I have witnessed) I saw the pain in his eyes, and surely I felt it in my heart.
Perhaps it’s a hit and run illness, perhaps it’s an ongoing process, I don’t know, and I don’t think anyone does, so I offer my opinion, that this is a whole body disease. I hear and read of recoveries, and I see others with their disease progressing into seizures and more issues, and while my son learned again to speak, I see other issues that seem worse than when he was little. The digestion issues for example, he is almost afraid to eat , so I see him eating things that he knows won’t bother him and eating them compulsively.
My dna comment was just that, a comment, I don’t know what disease is circulating, or what modifications could have been made to his genetic makeup, or if there is a heavy metal causing ongoing assaults, I don’t know that anyone knows.

Barbara – I don’t dispute your statements about your own child’s physical health! But as of the present time the DSM IV does not describe autism as a progressive disease, and the symptoms you’re seeing in your child are not a part of the disorder described in the DSM IV.

Eczema, erythema multiforme, Gi issues and fevers are shared by many children and adults that don’t have autism. One has to look at them as a separate medical issue and not lump them into one autism diagnosis.

When looking just at autism, it isn’t a progressive disease or a disease, at least not as of today it isn’t. A DSM IV doesn’t generally ever include such medical issues, either. People with Bi-Polar could have Eczema, erythema multiforme, Gi issues and fevers, those with ADHD too; if one looks just at the list of DSM’s, there’s a ton, you’re going to find many with other medical disorder’s.

If Teri Polling wants to end speculation about her daughter’s medical history, then she needs to make Hannah’s medical records available to third patty investigators. It’s too late to complain about the public’s interest in her family, given that Teri and her husband went public with their story.

While you are correct Lisa, the current diagnoses do not match what I believe, I don’t think I, and many others,am wrong, when we see illness in our children that culminates eventually into what is labeled autism. Autism IMO is just a label that means nothing. It means nothing because it only represents the psychiatric aspects. I had a well child first, then a sick one, I think this story rings true of most involved in the current epidemic. What in the illness affected the brain, I don’t know, but I know it happened I saw it with my own eyes. Maybe those that believe the gi inflammation somehow crossed some barrier to the brain are correct, I really don’t know. Maybe it is an autoimmune disease, I don’t know that either, however, I am alert to those around me, and while so many are physically suffering, and continually sick , I too , wonder why some aren’t, then I think of the possibility that some are somehow “underimmune” which makes some sense to me, that in all the immune system is affected in some strange way.
I remember a five year old that I had to sleep with because I had to change his underwear several times during the night. He was potty trained early, and didn’t want to revert to diapers, so I didn’t make him. Instead we changed underwear. I just thought, oh no, he’s going to have crohn’s like his big brother, but no, this was to be far worse. I’m struck this week by his horrible reaction to sounds, he will be ten this month and had somewhat adjusted to sound, this is a sad yet interesting set back. Interesting because everyone seems to think they become autistic, then they either improve or they don’t, I see it as ongoing illness with symptoms that come and go. We are entering puberty and yes I’m very concerned. The meltdowns are less, that’s a plus, but what’s ahead I don’t know, that’s the worst part.

I think many people have different beliefs about autism and different experiences. But we also need to be careful about stating as fact that our own experiences or beliefs define a disorder.

For purposes of this site, which is medically reviewed, I stick to the definitions of autism that are in the medical literature. Of course, I also write about associated issues – but at this point, for example, SI issues are not included in the diagnostic criteria, nor are GI issues. When I write about those issues, therefore, I am careful to note that while they appear to be common among people with autism they do not constitute an official “symptom of autism.”

More important than all that, though: your perception of autism as a progressive disease is really not something I’ve ever seen or heard of in any of the literature. Yes, people with autism can develop additional problems – but the idea that autism itself is degenerative is simply incorrect.

Lisa

Thanks Lisa for your explanation, it gave me a better understanding of your position.
While I completely understand that autism is not considered a degenerative disorder, I am not quite understanding of it not qualifying as an “illness”. Then again, the semantics will likely be adjusted as time exposes the underpinnings of this “disorder”. I think of Jett Travolta and many of the boys like him that suffer from increasingly dangerous seizures, and wonder if we should be getting them more help or assuring the family that this “disorder” is not progressing, not to worry. So, as I agree to understand your position, I can’t agree that the definition of this “disorder” is or has ever been correct. It wasn’t in too far of a distant past that it was an illness caused by cold hearted moms, and that definition held for decades.

The “refrigerator mother” hypothesis was based largely on anecdote. There’s no data to support the idea that a woman’s emotive styles can cause autism in her child. The hypothesis that vaccines cause autism is largely based on anecdotes. There’s no data to support the idea that vaccines are associated with autism.

Lab work on vaccine-induced regressive autism is abundant.
Vaccine-strain measles biopsied from kids’ GI lesions.
Antibodies to myelin basic protein.
Check out the Autism Research Institute website.
And countless parents’ before-and-after videos.

Jett Travolta possibly had autism, but he also had a seizure disorder. They are not one in the same. Jett’s seizures were not under control and if I remember correctly, they were trying to do a med change when he died. Autism itself does not cause death. Jett’s seizures didn’t necessarily progressively get worse, either and other than the seizure the child was reported to be pretty healthy.
My personal opinion is autism will not be identified ever as a progressive illness. “Refrigerator mother” hypothesis was that it didn’t cause an illness anyway, what they thought it caused was lack of bonding, the result being autism and even then it wasn’t considered a progressive ‘illness’ and the mother’s themselves weren’t considered physically ill. Sensory disorder is a separate dx. You can have SI and not autism, have autism and not SI. We already have names of illnesses, and some of them cause issues that can appear like autism such as celiac. But the fix for that is far easier and the delays it cause isn’t long term or life long.

I can understand confusion about DSM’s and so forth but at the same time, people can not lump every medical disorder to autism. Many people have a difficult time with just looking at the autism a child has, and not try to link everything else they have as a ‘result’ of autism. And many people go with ‘vaccines cause autism, and GI issues, allergies…’ trying to create a new unnamed disorder.
It’s not Lisa’a position, it’s the medical definition that’s been around since 1912 and it’s confusing to anyone when others try to change the meaning of it.

The DSM definition is simply a diagnositc tool. It is not an all-encompassing description and should not be used to limit what is considered to be part of autism. Yes, there needs to be a lot more research on what percentage of people with autism have certain characteristics. But just like I cannot say, for example, “X% of people with autism have inflammatory bowel disease,” it would also be inaccurate to say, “Inflammatory bowel disease is simply a co-existing condition which is not related to autism because it is not in the DSM definition.”

Twyla – if we discount the DSM description of autism, we’re undermining all attempts to quantify or understand the condition. How do we know that researchers are actually working with children with an ASD dx if we don’t go by the DSM? How do we know whether numbers are rising/falling? How do make sense of “ASD” as a known entity if we don’t stick with the existing criteria?

As you know, there have been and will be plenty of changes a-coming to the criteria. But for the time being, if we open the doors to any description of ASD that fits a particular person, we’re talking about an amoeba-like, ever-growing blob of symptoms that can’t be described, understood or researched!

Lisa

ANB, Terry Poling did not “complain about the public’s interest in her family”. She complained about “people who pretend that they have some sort of inside information that makes what they say meaningful on a topic.” Her comment was right on the mark. Allison Singer’s comment was based on pure speculation, but spoken as if she had some type of certainty. Yes, the tone of Terry Poling’s comment was angry. I would be angry too in her shoes.

And, there is a lot of science supporting vaccines causing autism. There would be more science if our government was not afraid of doing the studies that would demonstrate this.

Alison Singer’s “inside knowledge” comes directly from the concession document. The real inside information comes from what David Kirby leaked. Yes, Mrs. Poling is obviously angry, but it’s a selective anger which doesn’t do her credibility any favors.

Just what does a diagnostic tool mean, exactly? One has to meet all it’s criteria in order to have that diagnosis, tool or no tool.
At the present time, since any current co-existing medical condition is also presently seen with in the non autism population (which is where the medical conditions generated from to begin with, non autism population, It’s not as if these things appeared out of the blue once autism started to rise) it would be accurate to say other medical conditions is simply a co-existing condition and any child autism or not can have them. And actually, that currently is a very accurate statement.

People tend to take things personally when others are merely speaking about the general topic/ disorder/ case. Of any vaccine court, it’s going to happen and much if it isn’t speculation. There’s public court records and information about other disorders.

Teri Poling could had come here for the first time and explained what she considered inaccurate, however I loose alot of respect when people name-call and attack others directly and it’s clear someone sent the info to her to anger Teri. Many places on the web have this topic going. Is someone sending it all to her with the intent to anger her? Rather than angrily attacking people which is never justified,
Hold a calm press conference.

Lisa,

As you may imagine, there is much I could say…but I won’t. I apologize if I did not play by the sandbox rules…

I do not usually comment as both sides do an incredible job on their own with this topic.

We all have opinions and that is what makes us interesting. So be it. My own personal sandbox rule however is…when a person abuses their position by bullying, buying or selling their self-serving (and false) opinion (later cited as fact) to the public or medical profession and it involves me or my family, I will fight back. While I may say nothing, I keep track of everything.

Keeping track of everything is made easier by the internet. Here’s an example:

In Sept., 2001, you wrote “Our geneticist at Johns Hopkins said in his view it was the pertussus on the DPT that hurt Hannah.”

Is that why you will not release Dr. Zimmerman to speak?

Teri – You say you’ve been bullied, etc., and that may well be the case, but it’s certainly not happening on this site. While I welcome all points of view, I have to draw the line at personal attacks.

If you’d like accurate information to be known and shared, I invite you to us know what the truth is behind Hannah’s story. If there’s something you feel we should know about the decision, or about Hannah’s health, this is the time and place to share it. I’d particularly like to provide readers with information that would be useful to them as they make decisions about their own children.

Lisa

Cant seem to find any where in which anyone ‘bullying, buying or selling their self-serving (and false) opinion’ let alone Alison Singer and had anyone done that, Lisa generally steps in. This blog by far is the most calmest and respectful one out there on this topic alone. This topic any where else is far worse. I’m sure no one intended to upset anyone while making comments on this blog.
Just what post number of Alison’s displays that?

Ms Poling,

How is it that you have not allowed Andrew Zimmerman to comment publicly on what happened to Hannah? A lot of questions could be cleared up very quickly if you would allow that. I thought you believed in exposing the truth?

This must be my last comment.

A third person/entity will not be addressing our child’s medical records.

Query: WHY? Well gee, the opposing counsel CONCEDED my child’s case and some people are not satisfied. Things that make you go hmmmmm…

In the absence of full disclosure, few conclusions can reasonably and reliably be drawn from the Poling case.

I hope Mrs. Poling can at last be taken at her word when she says she is through commenting.

And I hope Ken Reibel will say he is through commenting.

Not a chance. ; -)

Lisa, I’m not saying to “discount the DSM description of autism”. I’m just saying that it is not the be-all and end-all limiting every inquiry. It’s perfectly legitimate to point out that Hannah Poling’s medical issues are like those reported by so many parents and people with autism (and like conditions reported post-vaccine by vets and pet owners). It’s perfectly legitimate to investigate evidence regarding a possible relationship between vaccines, immune system dysregulation, health issues, neuroinflammation, and autism.

Here is a definition of cancer: “An abnormal growth of cells which tend to proliferate in an uncontrolled way and, in some cases, to metastasize (spread).” O.K., that’s what cancer is, but how much does that tell us? If two people are comparing symptoms of their cancer, how would it sound if someone said to them, “That’s not related to the cancer. There’s nothing in the definition about pain or dizziness or …” Nor should scientific research on cancer be limited only to study of cell proliferation.

Yes, as I said, we do need an autism definition for diagnosis. That doesn’t mean that the definition describes everything about autism. And it certainly doesn’t answer questions about causation or treatment.

OK, then we’re in agreement – perhaps I misread your prior comment! Yes, I think that the DSM and other medical publications are all works in progress. But in order to make any sense out of what it is we’re describing, we need to agree that “for the time being, this is the definition we’re using.” Then, we continue to learn more, and change the definition as we go to better fit what we’ve learned.

I just hope we actually DO that, and don’t wind up with an absolutely generic desription, as seems to be in the plans for the DSM V!

Lisa

Cancer is an illness, has many different types, depending on where the cancer was, no two symptoms would be related, you can actually get a picture of the cancer and cancer is often fatal, and treatment for it generally is aggressive. Some cancers run in families.
A better comparison would be of another DSM disorder. It is legitimate to investigate evidence regarding a possible relationship of vaccines to anything, however you still cant combine illnesses to illnesses and then add autism to it. You still have to go with what presently is the autism diagnosis and criteria which does not include co-existing illnesses of which the population also has who don’t have autism. A diagnosis isn’t suppose to be made to fit the person. The person has to fit the diagnosis and when they do not, then it’s something else. There is a possibility in the future that relationship in the end isn’t autism at all but the symptom’s of something else that is easier treatable with a different long term result.

Ms Poling, you claim you don’t want third parties discussing your daughters medical situation. Could you explain your opinion on how David Kirby got ahold of the concession document before anyone else apart from yourselves?

If you don’t want to comment, please feel free to mail me at kevleitch@gmail.com there are a lot of aspects of your daughters case that I really think need clearing up. Your seeming desire for only clarity on issues that suit your case amongst them.

If you look at a problem, it might get fixed but in the process there would have to be an admission of guilt by the Medical Profession and the Pharmaceutical Industry. Sorry to say their suffering from what I call “The O.J.Syndrome” leading to the Hog Wash by the Intellingencia.

You read Twyla’s prior comment correctly. She’s just twisting the facts to make them fit her anti-vaccine agenda.

There is no medicine that is perfectly safe for every human being that uses it. Those who have injury due to medicine type things should be compensated and often are. ANB is correct, many every where are trying to make this case fit their anti vaccine aganda for everyone, not the child of this case which is which this case only affects.

Once again, ANB and Sandy, I do not have an “anti-vaccine agenda”. That is simply an offensive label which belittles those with vaccine safety concerns by wrongly classifying them all as “anti-vaccine”, like calling someone concerned about traffic safety “anti-car”. The fact that you continue to use that label on me in spite of my protests is offensive and reflects your own hostility and/or desire to propagandize.

There are people who are truly anti-vaccine, who believe that no vaccine is a good vaccine. That is not me.

And, my prior comment is totally consistent with my recent comment. My comment said, “The DSM definition is simply a diagnositc tool. It is not an all-encompassing description and should not be used to limit what is considered to be part of autism,” and that is consistent with what I said above. You’re free to disagree with me about what constitutes autism, but I’m not twisting any facts.

ANB, if you’re so sure that science is on your side you may want to focus more on the science and less on insulting people.

Twyla, I said many every where, I didn’t directly address you as Teri Poling did to Alison.
Anti vaccine is no more offensive than pro vaccine. Both exists. You are trying to make conceded/ settled what have you into a case where vaccine cause autism. That is not what the case is about so you tell us what the agenda over that is suppose to be?

I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that Twyla wants to know that vaccines are as risk-free as possible. She’s concerned that too little research has been done to ascertain the possible risks connected with even “trace” amounts of mercury (and, I’m assuming, other ingredients such as aluminum).

Obviously, the fewer potentially harmful ingredients in ANYthing, the better.

I have to agree that we seem to accept an awful lot of possibly-unnecessary risk than we need to. I was surprised to learn, for instance, that thimerosal really wasn’t a critically important element in vaccines – and that there were other less toxic options for preservation. why use mercury if something less toxic will do the trick?

I feel the same way about energy production, weapons production, mining, you name it. In so many cases, we use the most efficient approach rather than the least toxic/dangerous approach, and as a result human beings are injured while profit is maintained.

If there IS a way to make medications for children safer, I say let’s do it! Meanwhile, though, I personally don’t believe that vaccines are a significant cause of autism spectrum disorders.

Lisa

Twyla, you would earn more respect if your “vaccine safety concerns” were based on something more than discredited talking points and baseless assumptions. I’m trying to be insulting – just accurate. When you unfairly criticize something, you are not “pro” the thing you criticize. There are ways to truly advocate for vaccine safety without echoing Jenny McCarthy’s latest applause lines.

I think everyone wants risk free as possible but it is impossible for anything to be. That’s not even a matter in question. That’s more of the topic of the 2 recent studies.

Of this case, it does not determine risks or risk free of vaccines on a general bases for the general public. This case did not determine anything but case met the statutory criteria for that child. For the autism community, hurray and it’s great the family is being awarded, but it means nothing else towards vaccines and autism no matter how much anyone implies that it does.

Autism(by any other name would still be autoimmune disease, encephalopathy, inflammatory bowel disease, regressive encephalopathy, metabolic disease etc0 Who says it is not a disease? Autism(the word) is simply a way that ignorant and self-serving psychiatrists define a set of behaviors, but that don’t really get to the biological reasons for autism(the word) and that will continue to place it in the DSM-V which is totally irrelevant for our children on the spectrum(except as a way to have insurance deny us coverage).

God bless the Polings. Thank you Terry for commenting on your daughter. I can only imagine how you feel regarding what insight people think they have on your daughter.

Further: Medical records in a concession are not public record.

Question – would you share your child’s medical records?

Nancy, that wasn’t very nice about ANB.
Others as well can be said to have spread untruthful info. Alison did not attack anyone. What she said is right on the AOA site as well.
If lab work on vaccine-induced regressive autism was abundant and concrete, none of us would be on this blog right now. We’d all have answers.

Lisa @ TACA~ If medical records in a concession are not public record, then why does AOA site have them?

My child was given a Datp Hib HebB IVP and MMR and chicken pox all in 1 day that poor kid had shots in all his limbs Shortly there after he stopped speaking and started beating himself in the head and screaming like we shot him if we tried to hold him

That’s terrible. Did you file a case in the US Federal Court of Claims?

We tried and was told the statute of limitations had ran out on us because I noticed all this when he was 2 but the doctors kept telling me he was fine and i was over protective so i fought with them for 4 yrs he didnt get a Diagosis of Autism till he was 5.5 yrs old and by then the statute of limitations which is 3 yrs from the Onset of symptoms was up for us His original diagnosis was moderate to severly Autistic with MR but he is now 13 and has a new dx of PDDNOS /Sever Global apraxia /OCD/ Anxiety disorder and Sensory intergration disorder He is also now an Honor roll student so i guess i cant ask for more then that

My son never stopped speaking, he just never learned for years. Not sure which is worse, knowing your child once spoke and lost it, or a child who never spoke. Maybe emotionally it’s still the same. He hit his head too, mainly when people sang, loud noises, when he was upset and not only that, he pinched his inner ears and face until they bled. He was delayed in learning how to scream other than the infant scream which happened at bath, lights, noises, TV loud talking, but once he did learn aside from growling, all he did was scream. We couldn’t hold him, either. No hugs, no kisses, no bye bye’s. Same sort of things, only no vaccines related.

It’s odd how 2 kids can be so alike but cause is obviously very different.

I think is hard in both types of cases .With Cody he was such a happy playfull child didnt know a stranger loved the world and at 2 yrs old ALL H broke loose inside him he after that bunch of shots he was .Always very sick with fevers and asthma he went from loving everything and everyone to hating everything and everyone even his mommy and daddy The only person that child would let touch him after all that was Grandpa It was gut wrenching i felt like my child hated me and to make things worse the doctors said he was fine . And then his father and i got divorced and the doctors blamed it on that TALK ABOUT MAKING ME FEEL LIKE A CRAPPY PARENT then finely when he still was not talking at 5 the ped sent us to head start and that woman spent 15 minutes with him and said I am no expert but i think he has Autism and i said WHERE DO I FIND AN EXPERT

ANB, you would earn more respect if you actually had something informative to say rather than just disparaging people. Perhaps it was a Freudian slip in your comment when you said, “I’m trying to be insulting,” or maybe that was deliberate.

Nhokkanen, Lisa A, Allison, Maureen it is very nice to see you here.

Mrs. Poling does not have to share her Daughter’s medical file with anyone! This is private information and it deserves to be kept private! This woman has been through enough. She does not need ignorant people shoving their ignorant opinions down her throat. I think people are scared or jealous. Scared that this proves a vaccine link to autism. Jealous because lets face it, it is 1.5 million Dollars. Which sadly will not be enough to care for all her needs for the rest of her life! You people need to grow up, get a life, and tend to your own business!

I agree, Hannah’s medical condition was a private matter. That’s why it was so wrong for Kirby to out the family, and for the parents to drag their daughter on a coast-to-coast media blitz, making outrageous claims that can’t be verified. And now Mrs. Poling asks for privacy? How convenient.

Just read a good article by “Schwartz” on a this blog…
http://my-socrates-note.blogspot.com/

Jennifer, well said, I second that emotion. Why anyone has the unmitigated gall to demand that this mother discuss her daughter’s medical issues with such a hostile crowd is beyond me. And, it appears that the Polings tried to get the gov’t not to seal the case, as described in Schwartz’s article, assuming he knows what he’s talking about, which he usually does as far as I can tell.

Just one other point I would like to mention is that it’s amazing that the same people say the following two contradictory things:

1) There have always been lots of people with autism. The rate of autism hasn’t increased; we’ve just gotten better at diagnosing it. 1% of the population has always been autistic, but people just weren’t as aware and well educated as we are today. Why, I do believe my great uncle was autistic. He was good at math and didn’t have a lot of friends. Just one of many uncounted, undiagnosed people with autism from prior generations.

2) Hannah Poling, Bailey Banks, and Evan McCarthy never really had autism. Yes, they were diagnosed by qualified professionals. Yes, they had the features of autism such as loss of language, impaired social skills, lack of eye contact, and perseveration. But they weren’t/aren’t actually autistic. They had other conditions such as mitochondrial disorder, encephalopathy, seizures, Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis, and Landau-Kleffner syndrome, but not autism. After all, Bailey Bank’s neurologist Dr. Ivan Lopez said that he certainly does not have autism “because over here we can find a specific reason for his condition and this is not just coming up with no reason”.

Why are the standards for diagnosing autism so much lower in the first group than in the second? Oh, I guess because if a biological mechanism is discovered (especially if related to vaccines), or if a child recovers, then it’s not autism. No wonder mainstream medicine says the cause of autism is unknown and there’s no cure. If a cause is discovered or if a person recovers, that means it’s not autism.

But wait a minute, I don’t think “no known cause, no cure, and not caused by vaccines” is part of the DSM-IV, is it?

“Further: Medical records in a concession are not public record.”

Whomever leaked Hannah Polings concession document to David Kirby must be deeply ashamed of themselves. As must David for making it publicly available on Huffington Post.

Or is that different somehow?

Jennifer~ ignorant people? Its a topic in the news, the Polings made it public, not anyone else and funny how Kirby and AOA has the medical records. It’s not so private. No one really cares if they won their case. They should had won, but people shouldn’t have to rely on suing to care for their children. For years people have been taking care of their children without suing. It’s sad it get’s degraded to ‘ignorant and jealous and grow up’.
Most in that situation would be more than willing to share info to help others, yet they do not so in my opinion, they feel guilty for the 1.5 million to come and attack people on a public topic. Teri’s reaction was so way out of line and targeted one person when many had made comments, and this isn’t the only site yapping about it.

I’ve actually emailed the publishers of both Olmsted’s and Wakefield’s new books – but didn’t hear back and haven’t received either one. Not sure what’s up with that?

Meanwhile, folks, a question:

This conversation is getting pretty heated, but so far everyone seems to be okay with that. does anyone feel I should cut off comments to this post to avoid more serious confrontation, or do I let it ride? Your thoughts appreciated.

Lisa

I asked the publicist for a review copy, and received a prompt reply via email that the book would soon be on its way. Still waiting two weeks later.

It always blows my mind when people insist in blog comments that someone divulge information to them to defend themselves against an online attack. Can’t we all grow up and learn to live in the NOW? If everyone would stop attacking each other and start attacking the problem we’d find solutions much quicker. May the force be with you…………..

Lisa, so far this conversation seems o.k. to me. A bit of controversy, heated arguement, but not cause for ending comments IMHO.

I’m not sure why Teri Poling would be expected to supply bloggers from LBRB with anything. Wasn’t it LBRB that had a post inferring they had spoken to one of Hannah’s doctors but in fact had not gotten past the front desk?

And it will be no surprise, but I don’t believe Teri’s reaction to Alison Singer is way out of line. Anyone talking smack about someone else’s child, let alone with the air of authority Ms. Singer portrayed (also see the ASF site) deserves to be verbally spanked and sent to their room.

Alison wasn’t talking smack. She was referencing information found in the court papers. Again, the time for the Polings to consider privacy issues was before they took their story public.

I asked just what it was Alison Singer said which was suppose to be so offensive. Much of what she said I read in a AOA article. Singer didn’t call any one a puppet, slam Offit and so on. Singer spoke solely about the case. Ms. Poling made it personal. Singer was discussing the case as it is with the info aready out there that for whatever reason people share, and people are going to discuss it. You cant stop it just because you don’t agree with what they had to say. Because much of it is public, it’s just going to happen. I watched the recent segment where the family was interviewed on TV. Interesting. Mr. Poling stated they present theories. Well just what results with theories? This is the result.
No one deserves such behavior or attacks. Even if Singer did whatever it is people are complaining about, 2 wrongs didn’t make it right and I personally expect better from a parent who is so suppose to represent the ‘autism-vaccine’ theory in a public forum.
The Polings present theories, they won, it’s great they did but it does little for the autism cause issue.

Like many other topics, I think this topic lost it’s functional purpose.

Our son won in the vaccine injury court – his seizures started almost immediately after his dpt shot. But even though we won, his pediatric neuro team still refuses to acknowledge the cause of all his seizures….even going so far as to blame his recent seizures on behavioral issues……blame the patient, blame the mom, blame the meds, but never blame the real culprit. And, no I am not anti-vaccine. I am not anti peanut butter either, but I recognize a peanut allergy when it happens. I don’t ridicule someone because they have been injured by an allergic reaction.

Samaxtics – yep, it was me who wrote to Andrew Zimmerman and didn’t get past his receptionist as I was told that the Polings had not allowed him to speak openly about the case.

To me, thats double standards. If it isn’t to you – don;t read

Lisa – I have not yet participated in the conversation but I have read each and every one of the comments. I think this is a great discussion, albeit heated. Terry Poling has every right to defend herself, and her child. On the other hand, Autism News Beat directly ridiculed a parent who commented about their child’s vaccine injury. In my opinion, that level of absolute disrespect for other parents should never be tolerated on a site such as this. What makes this even more bothersome to me is that Autism News Beat is endorsed by the AAP. I am not attempting to attack him or making accusations…you can see this for yourself here http://www.aap.org/audio/autism/. I think many parents would find it quite upsetting to know someone who would treat other parents that way is endorsed by such an organization.

Mitomom, you make a good point that no one should be abusive toward anyone else on this blog.

Often there is a “fine line,” and I’ve learned that trying to edit or censor individual posts leads to a lot of anger – not to mention the amount of time I wind up spending on trying to decide what is and what isn’t ok.

I’ve also learned that one commenter’s “straight from the hip” talk is another’s “abusive accusation.”

Overall, I am delighted to say, this blog does not seem to attract “trolls” (people who simply show up to piss other people off and then run away!). Everyone whose comments you see here is speaking their own mind and, I believe, speaking from the heart – though of course there’s a ton of disagreement.

I asked whether folks felt this thread was becoming too intense, and one person said it wasn’t – but I can see that you feel otherwise.

At over 150 comments, and at least one offended reader, I think it’s time to call it quits.

FOLKS – I’m going to end comments to this thread. Please do join us in later posts, where we’re discussing a whole range of other topics!