Autism On the Warpath

How Much Longer Day is tricky, depending on what one is asking, and depending on how you go about doing it. Insurance coverage has to be lobbied per state and that’s not going to happen for every state over night. Vaccine schedules kind of always amuses me for a few reasons. One, there’s a reason why those ages are vaccinated and two, no one says anyone has to follow that schedule. I’d like to see educationally no abuse of any child, special ed or otherwise. I think some of their flyers wont get much attention at all. No one likes caps/ being yelled at and insults and many are not really functional other than demanding and opinionated. I myself would never print any of these things they’re offering, I’d write my own.

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Dierdre Imus is on the NAA board of directors. Nuff said.

Lisa Jo ~
You’re perpetual bias never ceases to amuse me. You say, “Their mission places the NAA at odds with most mainstream autism-related organizations and researchers. But for the NAA, the mission statement is just a start.” I say, REALLY? Are you going to be the one to tell AutismOne, UnLocking Autism, AutismLink, Autism Action Network, Talk About Curing Autism, Generation Rescue, SafeMinds, Age of Autism, Autism Research Institute, Thoughtful House, and an entire slew of other nationally run orgs and research institutions that they don’t fit your personal criteria of “most mainstream autism-related organizations and researchers.” Better yet, why not tell your readers. They are the ones who deserve unbiased jounalism and truth.

Sam’s mom – not completely sure I understand your point, but no, Thoughtful House and Safe Minds are most certainly not mainstream institutions.

They are absolutely and intentionally not mainstream: they have taken quite a different point of view from the CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP, etc. In fact, that’s the whole point of the How Much Longer campaign.

Maybe we have a different definition of the term “mainstream?”

Lisa

Dierdre Imus is on the board of directors? I didn’t know that. Almost nuff said.

I am not a bias person however half on Sam’s mom’s list if not most are not mainstream but alternative, and some of them are not very large nationally, either and some of them make untrue statements to preset your bias. Most on that list are also at odds with each other. So in Lisa’s take on it, no matter how one determines and defines mainstream, no matter who the reader is makes that determination themselves regardless and not based on what is written by Lisa either. It’s based on my own minds opinion.

Which goes back to my original opinion that these pre-written letters are bold, biased and talking at the people it’s intended for than talking to them.

Look at your sponsored links, Lisa Jo…all biomedical, non-mainstream sponsors. Obviously your views are not in sync with those of your readers.

Lisa – It would seem that your definition of “mainstream” is those who agree with or simply believe whatever the CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP, etc tell them. BUT, what if those groups are wrong?
Don’t forget that for about 25 or 30 years the CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP, etc thought Bruno Bettleheim’s refrigerator mother theory was right.

Mom4Truth – I actually have no input into the sponsored ads on this site. It’s all handled by the NYT Co. in New York. I can complain if there’s something truly outrageous, but otherwise it’s out of my hands.

Lisa

Mr. Wonderful – right, that’s what “mainstream” means: those organizations that represent the usual, typical approach to things. The establishment. What could be more mainstream or establishment than the CDC, FDA, etc.?

Sure, they could be wrong. They’ve been wrong before, and will be again. No doubt about it.

Again: the whole POINT of the How Much Longer campaign is to shout out AGAINST the mainstream, right?

Lisa

Dear Lisa,

Why do you distinguish those “who are able and willing to work through the process” to negotiate for insurance legislation from the passionate parents at NAA. Many supporters and members of NAA responsibly engage in precisely the type of constructive legislative advocacy on the state and federal level that you praise. It is the focused energy that informs NAA’s current high volume campaign directed at Federal resistance to addressing the difficult problems in autism that has provided the drive to accomplish the legislative victories on the state level. These things are not mutually exclusive and often the very same individuals are involved in both.

You criticize the personal testimony of parents who witnessed their children regress soon after vaccination. That painful observation of regression by some NAA members and many others does not exclude the science that supports a connection between vaccination and regression. I am sure that the members of NAA can cite with specificity the scientific investigations that support their claim. They can also powerfully rebut the statistical epidemiology upon which I assume you rely for your claim that “science” does not establish a link. The fact is, the science that presumably proves there is no link does not exist. The issue of whether regressive autism is linked to vaccination has never been studied. Don’t take my word for that proposition – it is the opinion of some of the leading epidemiologists in the world.

Why is it objectionable for parents who have witnessed regression closely following vaccination to raise their voices loudly – or in a large font, as you put it – to pressure resistant bureaucrats to do the science that has not been done? Given the history of bureaucratic resistance to responsible research on the vaccine issue , it seems that the only thing that will produce results is a “kick in the teeth”, as you put it.

I can only praise parents who unyieldingly fight for their children – they believe their kids are worth fighting for. Sometimes negotiation won’t yield results; it is a valid strategy to use other types of pressure to push the bureaucracy that controls research. Just ask the AIDS activists from a couple of decades ago what kinds of tactics achieved results for them.

I do not for an instant claim that all cases of autism, or even a majority of cases, are caused solely by vaccines. I suspect that the members of NAA share this view. But, for those parents who have observed regression after vaccination, and have seen laboratory evidence and leading edge science point to vaccination as a causal factor in some cases – THERE IS NO FONT TOO LARGE TO USE IN SUPPORT OF THEIR KIDS, when bureaucrats deny their reality.

It is well understood that vaccines injure some number of children. A significant number of those vaccine-injured children are labeled as “autistic” or have identical symptoms of neurological dysfunction. This is not disputed and the cases are not rare or isolated in which such children with “autism” have been compensated for their injuries. Why is that so controversial?

None of what the parents at NAA or other organizations are doing in any way obstructs or diminishes the work of other parent advocates in other organizations. Why is it that some parents feel the need to deride and obstruct the efforts of parents who advocate for the interest of their vaccine-injured children?

The Moms and Dads at NAA should only be praised for stepping up for their own kids and all others similarly situated. Believe it or not their efforts benefit all children with disabilities – whether vaccine-injured or not – because the pressure they bring to bear will force the public health authorities to be more honest, transparent and responsive.

There is not much to criticize in that, LARGE FONT or not.

Sincerely,

Robert J. Krakow, parent
(and attorney for some vaccine injured children)

Lisa – What would you consider mainstream autism-related organizations and researchers?. Only those who agree with the current line of thinking?
And should we always agree with the mainstream establishment?

Mr. Wonderful – the term “mainstream” doesn’t mean the same thing as “right,” “good” or “acceptable.”

Typically, as in this case, the mainstream refers to those in power — that is, the institutions of the US government.

he NAA feels that the Powers That Be within the government, along with those funded by the government, are deliberately and systematically ignoring, refuting, or undermining their beliefs, needs and perspectives.

If the NAA, Thoughtful House, GenRescue etc. were the mainstream, they would have the power to make change as they saw fit. Because they feel they are not being heard by the mainstream, they are taking political action through a media and letter writing campaign.

Lisa

Lisa

I believe that your comments on this post are genuine and reflect your own standards of courtesy which I respect and appreciate in internet autism discussions even though we are not always in agreement on the merits of a discussion.

I have to ask though, with respect to Dr. Insel in particular, and public health authorities in general, what will it take other than raising the tone, to get them to take the autism crisis seriously?

In the now famous video of Dr Insel’s appearance before Senator Harkin’s subcommittee Dr Insel stated, contrary to the statements of Dr Bernadine Healy, Dr Julie Gerberding, and Dr Duane Alexander that observational studies comparing autism rates of existing vaccinated and non vaccinated populations could not be done.

I don’t know fully what Dr Insel meant by his assertion that the comparative observational studies could not be done of the very courteous but pointed questioning by Senator Harkin. But it did seem clear to me that Dr Insel does NOT have an open mind and will not be persuaded by logic and reason. I did not know at the time I watched the video and only discovered later on reading Olmstead and Blaxill at the Age of Autism that Dr Insel’s brother Richard has benefited in the millions of dollars form his vaccine ties. Dr Richard Insel ” was part of both the research team that developed the vaccine for Haemophilus influenza B (Hib) and the company that profited from the introduction of the first commercial Hib vaccine formulation.”

More generally, every time that an increase in autism rates are reported public health authorities attribute the rise in question to the 1993-4 DSM diagnostic changes and similar changes in the IDC. Yet studies like the Danish study over the period from 1972-2000 when major diagnostic, awareness and service changes took place are accepted by public health authorities as proof that autism rates increased after the removal of thimerosal from vaccines and thus constitute proof that thimerosal does NOT cause or contribute to autism. Was there a real rise or wasn’t there? Public health authorities seem to have been inconsistent on that issue taking a position, that there has been a real increase but also taking a position that there has not been a real increase depending on whether to do so protects vaccine programs from allegations that vaccines cause or contribute to autism or other neurological disorders.

Given what appears to be a real refusal by authorities to address the vaccine autism issues seriously it is not surprising that some are abandoning cool calm reason and argument for more emotional approaches. Just as those on the “other side” do when they dismiss parents as hysterical and easily manipulated or dismiss their arguments as “woo” etc.

I am open minded on the vaccine autism issues but I have become increasingly suspicious of the public health authorities’ responses to legitimate concerns of parents and professionals who question the role of vaccines and the onset of autism symptoms in children post vaccination. The response has been to marginalize parents, demonize professionals and to pretend that science has completely disproved any vaccine autism connection even while refusing to do the conflict free, comparative studies that might shed some real light on the issues.

Whatever you may think of the NAA choice of language and whatever you may think of some parents’ refusal to vaccinate both behaviors are likely to continue as long as public health authorities continue to pretend that the issue is closed and continue their refusal to conduct legitimate, conflict free, reliable research on possible vaccine autism connections.

If and when the IACC and other public health authorities stop treating vaccine programs like golden calves that must not be questioned, if and when conflict free, valid studies of vaccinated and non vaccinated groups are done the results will undoubtedly go a long way to resolving the tension between Dr Insel and other authorities and parents who bear the ultimate responsibility for protecting their children. Whatever the outcome of those studies.

Harold –

I think the vaccine program is “golden calf-like” for the excellent reason that it prevents catastrophic public health disasters such as those experienced during the polio epidemics. IMHO, the possibility of re-entering a period during which we are at risk of polio, diphtheria, tetanus, etc. is not something to consider lightly: in fact, it’s terrifying.

The problem, of course, is that there is a “don’t touch” attitude toward vaccines that engenders suspicion — rightly or wrongly.

I think the vaccine court program makes it clear that the US govt has always acknowledged vaccine damage. Vaccine damage is real!

BUT. The fact that vaccine damage can and does occur does NOT mean the same thing as “vaccines are the major causal factor behind a massive epidemic of autism.”

I have been told that there are not enough unvaccinated children in the US for a legit compare/contrast study. I’ve also been told that this isn’t true. Of course, I have no way to absolutely know who is telling the truth, and I would certainly support such a study.

Again, though, the fact that such a study has not been conducted on a large scale by the US govt DOES NOT MEAN that vaccines have caused an autism epidemic.

On the specific topic of the NAA, my personal opinion is that this type of campaign is more likely to push supporters away than attract them. The feeling I get from the posters is the feeling I get when I see someone lose it completely in an emergency room and start screaming and abusing the receptionist.

They’re right: they’ve been asked to wait far too long. They’re sick or in pain. They may or may not need more than the next person, but they truly feel ignored. But the lady who’s yelling at the nurse is not likely to get help,support or even the time of day from the doctors OR from the other patients.

We may feel that autism is THE issue of the day. But when I googled “how much longer” as a search term, I found campaigns on quite a few other issues. In other words, we are not alone in feeling that there should be more action taken more quickly!

Lisa

If you believe the use of caps is a way of yelling at someone, I hate to see your stance on exclamation points. I’m personally not a fan, which is why maybe only one is used is this campaign.

Although these ads certainly won’t push Insel out of a job or magically make certain teachers stop beating our kids, they do serve the purpose of bringing abuse, insurance issues (still not covered in every state, should we stop pushing?) and vaccine safety issues to the forefront of people’s minds. Even so much that someone would take the time to write an article about it. That was the goal.

Now when you take a piece of video like this…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaAPjILGHCQ

…mixed with news this week of yet another teacher getting away with abuse (not even so much as fired, read away)…

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20090902/article/909021039

…you tend to be angry. Very angry. But even more so scared of doing nothing at all. If asking nicely worked, then an increase of stories like this wouldn’t exist. How many ways would you like us to ask? We’ll try them all.

I believe there’s a huge difference between having a fearless voice and a reckless one. To me, it would be reckless to stay silent or politely passive on these issues. At least we’re willing to go out on a limb. Standing in our shoes, we’re the ones who get email after email from parents desperate for any aid, and with more stories of abuse than you can count. So, I can see where you would think that progress is being made with or without ad campaigns, but we’ll always work to gain, and speed up, progress.

Someone actually wrote and said we were starting to sound like PETA. Well, our children are being treated like animals. Fitting.

Thanks for the article -

Lori

Mainstream means for the most part a tendency to which the majority would fall under, and as already said, right or wrong doesn’t really play a part but the NAA and others mentioned are only consisting of the combined ideals of part of the autism community, not the majority, and it consisting very little of those not of the autism community. Only some of the autism community doesn’t agree with the vaccine schedule, based on that famous 36 to 50 vaccines however the majority of mainstream would know those number are incorrect. No one needs the NAA on this topic anyway, alter that schedule of vaccines, many are already doing it. A study isn’t going to help a bit. Once the findings are released no one will agree with it, find excuses and demand another.

I wonder why NAA chose that particular day. For the mainstream America not part of the autism community and even to those that are, they’re not talking to anyone, but yelling at these people it’s intended for where then the stereo typing of autism parents continues. Don’t associate me with them, even if I agree with some of their concerns. That is not the manner to get peoples attention.

Lisa,
If as you say “Typically, as in this case, the mainstream refers to those in power — that is, the institutions of the US government”, then there would never be any change in this country.
Acorn and MoveOn didn’t fit your definition of “mainstream” but they had “the power to make change as they saw fit”.

Wow! Reading through these comments remind me of why I left the world of organized autism groups. Yikes! You guys are brusque. I have a 26 year old son with autism and we are doing okay. I feel badly for you that you need to consistently duke it out. As someone mentioned, at least you are courteous.

Lisa,
You said “Typically, as in this case, the mainstream refers to those in power — that is, the institutions of the US government”.
There are NO government agencys that are doing research or advocacy specifically for autism, so NAA, AutismOne, UnLocking Autism, AutismLink, Autism Action Network, Talk About Curing Autism, Generation Rescue, SafeMinds, Age of Autism, Autism Research Institute, Thoughtful House are in fact the mainstream autism-related organizations and researchers.

Lisa

I recognize the value of the vaccine programs. As do professionals like Dr Bernadine Healy.

That does not mean that vaccines should be above question in terms of their consequences. When potential negative consequences are observed they should be thoroughly researched … for the protection of children against those consequences … and for continued trust in vaccine programs. If a problem is confirmed research can then be done to continue the vaccine while eliminating or reducing the negative side effects. Closing our eyes to the problem … placing vaccine programs off limits to questioning is dangerous to the public and to the continuation of public trust in vaccine programs.

The fact that the comparative observational studies have not been done does NOT prove an autism vaccine connection. On that I agree.

But the refusal to conduct such a study reduces the credibility of official claims that “science” has conclusively disproved any vaccine autism connection and creates legitimate suspicion that authorities like Dr Insel are afraid of what the studies will reveal.

I am confident that Dr. Insel, and Dr. Paul Offit for that matter, are aware of the problems with the Danish study and other studies used to support claims that a vaccine autism connection has been disproved. They are also aware that the observational comparative studies Dr Healy has called for could and should be done.

It is time to end the vaccine autism war and do the research, real credible research.

Mr. Wonderful, first of all there are many autism-related programs and organizations generated, funded and run by government agencies, on the local, state and federal level. The NIH alone runs many autism research and treatment centers all across the country, and funds hundreds of studies, trials and programs.

Second, the fact that GenRescue and such exist does not make them “mainstream.” Their underlying philosophies, agendas and activities are specifically intended to COUNTER the mainstream thinking. In addition, as others have said, they do NOT represent the autism community as a whole.

There ARE autism advocacy groups that are closer to the mainstream. These include the Autism Society of America, Autism Speaks, the Organization for Autism Research, and many others. These organizations don’t represent the autism community as a whole either, but they ARE closer to the mainstream.

ACORN and MoveOn have had some impact, as have many non-mainstream organizations — but their impact is almost entirely through grassroots community organizing and political action. IMHO, if they simply stood on a soap box and said “Make Change Now, You @##$^!!!” they would have had far, far less impact.

Lisa

Harold, just for my info: from your perspective, what would credible research look like? That is: who would conduct it, who would fund it, what type of study would be appropriate, and how would the outcomes be reviewed and replicated?

I ask because I’ve seen piles of studies cited on both sides of this issue, and I’ve seen piles of commentary on virtually every study — ripping apart the researchers, the funding, the protocols, or the replication.

I just don’t know how we’d develop a “credible” study that everyone would buy into — unless we could get Tom Insel and Paul Offit to work hand in hand with the Geiers, Jon Poling and Andy Wakefield (with funding provided via leprechaun gold!).

Lisa

Thanks, Patty! We, too, are a family with an autistic child who are doing pretty darned well. It’d be great to get past the duking-it-out process, and fingers crossed we’ll get there someday… but I’m not holding my breath…

Hope you’ll check out the articles and newsletters, which are far less contentious than some of the blogs!

Lisa

Actually, it all depends on what aspect of autism you’re looking at when you read that list above. If we’re Only talking about advocacy, you all forgot Autism Speaks, United Way, Easter Seals, and Autism Society and the latter 3 being aroung far longer than any list provided. It’s odd to have even questioned this blog when other Orgs were simply forgotten and a biased list offered. The Gov generally doesn’t do advocacy on anything related as such, however they do provide info about autism and they have been part of studies. That list above is not mainstream, for the majority does not agree with all or many within that list and certainly not to provide people with unbiased info. It also again depends on what aspect of autism you’re looking at, and of that list, they’re all on the topic of vaccine related-autism. That alone makes them biased and probably the motivation behind of How Much Longer Day.

Harold~ is the NAA’s motivation of How Much Longer Day for vaccine studies or advocacy? Or is it the motivation of just these comments that is making it appear to be vaccine related intent? Although the demand for a study has been made, I do not believe any one will ever be happy with it unless all those can dictate how it is done.

“On the specific topic of the NAA, my personal opinion is that this type of campaign is more likely to push supporters away than attract them.”

Lisa, the campaign’s purpose isn’t to “gain supporters”….it’s to GET ACTION.

NAA has plenty of “supporters” who agree with their message — in fact, tens of thousands of them.

Bottom Line: When one is “fighting” against powerful federal agencies sometimes “diplomacy” must take a backseat.

Kelli Ann Davis

Kelli Ann – I get your point. And I do understand that action is desired. But there are two issues I don’t really understand.

1. If you read all the posters, you see that action is being demanded on about 8 different fronts simultaneously. Does NAA intend to push forward all of these agendas at once? If so, how will they do so once Sept 9 is over? Seems to me it would take concerted grass roots work to get the kind of action desired — and they’re working on a huge number of issues all at once.

2. Why does NAA think that large fonts and name calling will be an effective way of getting action? Or are the posters intended NOT for the legislators but rather for the autism community? If that’s the case, I suppose they’ll be effective in moving some folks to write their legislators — but IMHO they will turn away a lot of people who, like me, support many (though not all) of the causes but don’t want to be associated with the high drama and angst.

Lisa

So what we’re saying here is depending the fight, rules, general social communication and consideration to the reader should not be followed? This is the way to get action? To write offensive, some what sarcastic, yelling letters to people? Giving their opinion of ones employment? This is the same bully stuff kids do. Blunt force rarely ever get’s the result wanted and most times gives of the most negative vibes about the people involved. Shock value hasn’t worked yet any many have tried.

No matter the fight, I intend to stay in the front seat. No one ever listens when they’re being talked at and that’s exactly what these letters are doing. They not even functional, they’re more of a rant of rage.

“Make Change Now, You @##$^!!!”

Hi, Lisa, well I don’t recall saying anything to this extent in the ads. They are direct and sarcastic. All caps, a design choice, but I notice you use all caps in some of your wording in the comments above. I must say that out of all campaigns we’ve done, this by far has received the most amount of responses. An overwhelming amount. I posted what’s below last night, but it must not have gone through because of the links I included. Here it is without those links -

–

If you believe the use of caps is a way of yelling at someone, I hate to see your stance on exclamation points. I’m personally not a fan, which is why maybe only one is used is this campaign.

Although these ads certainly won’t push Insel out of a job or magically make certain teachers stop beating our kids, they do serve the purpose of bringing abuse, insurance issues (still not covered in every state, should we stop pushing?) and vaccine safety issues to the forefront of people’s minds. Even so much that someone would take the time to write an article about it. That was the goal.

Now when you take a piece of video like this…

…mixed with news this week of yet another teacher getting away with abuse (not even so much as fired, read away)…

…you tend to be angry. Very angry. But even more so scared of doing nothing at all. If asking nicely worked, then an increase of stories like this wouldn’t exist. How many ways would you like us to ask? We’ll try them all.

I believe there’s a huge difference between having a fearless voice and a reckless one. To me, it would be reckless to stay silent or politely passive on these issues. At least we’re willing to go out on a limb. Standing in our shoes, we’re the ones who get email after email from parents desperate for any aid, and with more stories of abuse than you can count. So, I can see where you would think that progress is being made with or without ad campaigns, but we’ll always work to gain, and speed up, progress.

Someone actually wrote and said we were starting to sound like PETA. Well, our children are being treated like animals. Fitting.

Thanks for the article -

Lori

Thanks so much for writing, Lori.

I know they say there’s no such thing as bad publicity, so in that sense I guess you’re getting response, which is the intent (though another poster said that the intent was action, not attention).

Re “shouting,” CAPITAL LETTERS is considered to be “raised voice” in online etiquette… so a poster that’s mainly written in caps is read that way online.

As I said in my blog, I certainly agree with many (though not all) of your concerns. Just not with the approach.

BTW – do you feel that PETA gets the kind of response that you would be happy with? That is, do they get action? I actually don’t know much about them, but if they’re succeeding where groups like the ASPCA are not, then I guess the approach really does work…

Lisa

Not all teachers are abusive, and I am sure they didn’t start out with the intent to be abusive however that issue alone is tricky just due to Unions and per district. You read a lot of articles where a child ran off and they drowned, where’s the advocacy towards parents on safety items to keep a child safe? No child should be hurt or left unattended. Parents are always needing help to get a Para, with educational placement and laws, those issues will never change since it’s an IEP (individual) and that nothing is standard nationally; it’s per district and that will probably never change. I get those same e-mails. Parents most times address the school emotionally, failing to provide the evidence needed to accurately be effective at a IEP, or at least they lack knowing how to collect that evidence. There will always be parents who need that help, because every child does not need a Para or the same educational supports.

The general statement ” Someone actually wrote and said we were starting to sound like PETA. Well, our children are being treated like animals. Fitting.” Don’t include my child into ‘ours’. That is exactly where the terms comes from, including all children into ones idea of how those with autism are treated. If you are representing a group of people, than say that than to include all with autism.

A blog topic within the autism community, this is on topic to us of course. But just as we’re aware of all these things listed, so are many others to which are targeted. None of it is new news to anyone other than maybe a new young parent just starting to have kids. Using caps is yelling and using them in a blog is not the same as address the President, the CDC, and so on. The one to the President is quite interesting and includes swearing, and slamming genetic research and a lot of other things that are questionable to be effective at all other than showing there’s angry demanding people out there that cant calmly write a decent letter. These letters are so offensive to me, a parent of a child with autism.
They’re not fooling me, NAA’s agenda for How Much Longer is all about vaccines, and a one-sided war.

Lisa Jo Rudy is never really worried about autism. She can’t understand why the NAA should be. She criticizes the NAA for asking the question, “How much longer?”
Rudy obviously trusts that folks like Tom Insel are doing their best to address autism.
Rudy outlines her goals….”Granted we have a long, long way to go before people with autism -or any developmental or mental disability – are fully accepted, supported, and valued. There are abuses, there is neglect, and these issues must be confronted and addressed.”
She wants autistic people to be accepted, supported and valued.
Any sane person wants no more autism, and they want children in the grip of autism to recover. Rudy is happy with the status quo. If she keeps writing like this, she’ll get a post on the IACC.

Anne Dachel
Media editor: Age of Autism http://www.ageofautism.com

Anne – thanks for commenting.

I’m sorry if you don’t feel autistic people should be accepted, supported and valued. Certainly I would add that autistic people should be also educated, challenged, employed, housed … and everything else that we want for ourselves and our children.

“No more autism” is a complicated goal, IMHO. That’s because “autism” is such an incredibly broad-ranging term these days.

I would absolutely agree with the goal of no more autism if it’s defined as a “profound and painful disability which disrupts every aspect of life.”

I can’t agree, though, if the definition of autism continues to include “those people who don’t fit the social norm, but have a wide variety of unique and valuable talents, abilities and skills.”

Even if we are speaking only of the most profoundly disabled individuals, though, I would not agree that we “know” vaccines are a significant culprit.

Lisa

Hi again, Lisa -

I don’t think raising awareness about these issues is ever a bad thing. You agree with our concerns, but disagree with our delivery. I respect that. But our concerns are receiving awareness either way. Advocacy can afford to be much more polite than activism, so I fear indifference more than I do criticism. Raising awareness is taking action. Spreading awareness is taking action. I look at them as being equal.

I think when you stand against someone, you stand against their message, no matter if you agree or not. You’ll always find something wrong. That’s the nature. So I don’t ever anticipate you liking anything we put out. In any case, I apologize if you find the ad campaign offensive. If you think these ads are harsh, imagine what the child on the video was feeling when he was smacked and berated. I really wish that abuser was more lowercase-minded.

Lori

PS: Have you been to a MoveOn rally?

Patty
I am glad to hear that you and your son are doing okay. There are many more people with autism who aren’t. My son is 32 and would most likely get lost if there was no one to meet him at his bus, three blocks form home. A friend who lives a couple of blocks from us is raising her 17 year old granddaughter who is totally nonverbal, wanders if she can get out of the house on her own.
These people need organized autism groups.

Lori – thanks so much, and I appreciate your comments.

I guess maybe we are talking about the difference between advocacy and activism.

To my mind, the agenda set out by the posters is vast, overwhelming, contentious and expensive. Any one of the concerns would take millions of dollars and many years to accomplish, even if everyone agreed on the agenda and the process.

So saying “fix the problem, NOW” imho, may relieve feelings — but is unlikely to result in specific action.

It would seem to me to more effective to choose one issue — say abuse of autistic children in the schools — and build a campaign of awareness and action from the ground up.

But I guess that’s advocacy v activism?

Lisa

Lisa

You raise some fair points. But on the funding issue there has been lots of money directed to researchers with direct ties to pharmaceutical companies and to studies, like the Danish study, which it was hoped would put an end to the vaccine debate. There are existing emails on line proving that last point.

The real issue here is what would constitute a credible study and who would be credible people to involve. I would not involve Dr Wakefield or Dr Geir not because of their abilities. I have no opinion on that and will, in the case of Dr Wakefield, await the outcome of his professional disciplinary proceedings which have now dragged on for years without a decision.

I think Dr Poling is an excellent suggestion. Dr. Healy would also be an excellent choice. I am sure that a full team could be worked out, along with procedures, to help address these issues.

If it is all about finding the money for this research then I would suggest a share of the genetic autism research funding which currently receives 10-20 times as much funding as all environmental oriented autism research.

If you don’t think the public authorities are going to do such research how do you propose to restore public trust in vaccine programs? The current approach of treating parents like they do not understand “science” has not worked and, quite frankly, is nonsense. Why keep repeating the same failed strategy? Why not do the research?

Or do you too suspect that vaccines are involved in causing or triggering autism in some cases?

Lisa
You said “Re “shouting,” CAPITAL LETTERS is considered to be “raised voice” in online etiquette… so a poster that’s mainly written in caps is read that way online.”
Most, if not all, political campaign posters are printed in CAPITAL LETTERS.

“Will you join us for a LOUD day of promoting change? With autism now affecting 1 in 100 children, it’s time to set aside polite requests and boldly ask the entire nation HOW MUCH LONGER?”

You know, with many medical disorders, it can take generations to find answers. Asking the Nation this is asking for an impossible answer to most of these issues, and almost blaming them that there aren’t those answers. I cant imagine one person, being the President, CDC or FDA wouldn’t want to prevent autism or be sure that every child in America is safe. I’m sure the entire Nation has other things on their mind, like cancer and other fatal illnesses, school closings and loosing jobs although we may not be able to extend our imagination to those situations unless we’re dealing with them but they are just as important to those who are dealing with them. I feel very sorry for any child who is hit and berated, but that is that child, not the whole of those with autism. Those letters aren’t harsh, they’re full of emotion, berating and anger which might had been the feeling of the one who smacked that child. So more or less, it’s at that same level it using as an example. They’re abusing the reader, and the reader will get lost in all that content of issues and they will only leave with one feeling. Any hope for a sit-down chat surely that door will be closed. A letter is one thing, the idea of actual verbal abuse would make any one reluctant to sit with those who wrote that. It’s not really depicting the life of a child with autism, it’s coming from the adults around them and think about that as you read those letters. These are the same people caring for children with autism.

My opinion is not going to stop those letters, but eventually we parents of the autism community are looked at and judged by such shock value ads and letters of the people around us. I would hate for anyone who knew me to think I was suicidal and that angry of a person. Yes, there is such a thing as any press is not always good press.

Lisa
You said “Again: the whole POINT of the How Much Longer campaign is to shout out AGAINST the mainstream, right?”
Dang, caps! Are you shouting at me?
You say that the CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP, etc are the “mainstream” and they represent the usual, typical approach to things.
Their approach is to say that there is no known cause or cure for autism.
Their idea of “autism research” is to say that vaccines don’t cause autism. All they do is try to prove a negative.
The organizations that you consider to not be “mainstream” are feverishly researching causes and cures.

“It would seem to me to more effective to choose one issue — say abuse of autistic children in the schools.”

Lisa -

Yes, we’ve done this. Our ‘end the abuse’ campaign was the most recent one in May and June. Eight ads outlining specific ways our children have been abused according to the 2009 GAO report on restraint and seclusion in schools. The campaign asked for federal laws that currently don’t exist. We’ve had many one-issue campaigns. This campaign has received the most response and outlines community-wide issues.

Interesting. I was at the NIH site not long ago looking at what the AIDS activists did back in the early 90′s. They indeed got their way by shouting, but someone made a comment on the site (more than a decade after that rally) saying they shouldn’t have been so aggressive.

I agree with Mr.Wonderful, really to claim that the very people “who may” be responsible for this explosion of autism are the mainstream is scary. If they “did it” they “know it” and theyr’e “hiding it” as long as they can “get away with it”. It’s pretty basic “stuff”.
BTW..I have read that some of those mainstream studies, may have been designed to take the heat off and are fraudulent. What “will” we do when that is presented as fact one day?
Every time someone other than the pharms and the cdc come up with something solid ,there seems to be such an effort to negate it. Why is this? I’ll start with this..what do you think?

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a905442343~db=all~jumptype=rss

Mr. Wonderful and BarbaraJ -

I’m not sure how the statement “the CDC and FDA and other US government agencies are the mainstream” could possible be controversial. IMHO, it’s just a matter of fact. If the established government isn’t the mainstream, then what is?!

I do think it’s unfair to say, though, that “Their idea of “autism research” is to say that vaccines don’t cause autism.” In fact, their idea of autism research includes millions spent on studies looking at brain structure, genetics, and a wide range of other issues. From the govt point of view, vaccines are really a side issue: they’ve done some studies, but it isn’t a major focus.

And yes, absolutely, others are feverishly seeking or claiming to have found a cure for autism!

Lisa

Harold – I have no idea whether the NIH or CDC will undertake a vaccine/no vaccine study; I don’t have any particular insider information along those lines.

My questions about funding, though, related more the autism community than to govt agencies. That is: I can’t envision any study that would truly satisfy all sides that “truth” had been found.

If the US govt funds it, people will think it’s biased. If pharma fund it, ditto. If GenRescue funds it, ditto. If a group of individuals fund it, ditto. Hence the leprechaun gold: the only funding source I could think of that could claim to be untainted by autism politics!

Lisa

Connor’s Mom — Was there more to the abuse campaign than ads and letter writing? I’m sorry to say that I wasn’t aware of the campaign, and I’m on the NAA mailing list. It’s obviously a hugely important issue, and I’d love to know that there were positive responses to your work.

When you looked into the AIDS campaign, did they really achieve huge outcomes just by shouting? what were their goals?

Many years ago, I attended the 1987 “Jobs Peace and Freedom” rally in NYC. It was a huge event; lots of big names; lots of attendees. But IMHO it was so diffuse and had so little follow-up that there were really no outcomes.

Sure, we all wanted jobs, peace and freedom. But the devil’s in the details.

Lisa

Lisa said to Anne Dachel,
“I’m sorry if you don’t feel autistic people should be accepted, supported and valued.”

Oh, come on!

A retraction and apology are in order for a statement that childishly petty.

Nancy~ If anything was petty and childish, it was Anne Dachel’s attempt to make fun of Lisa Rudy’s thoughts. Her idea was a cure is far more better than being accepted, supported and valued. With that one-sided way of thinking, who should care about abused kids and educational issues, once there’s a cure none of those things will happen.

The link BarbaraJ offered was about the triple series Hep B vaccine and those not vaccinated with that vaccines 46, and those not vaccinated 7 (here again would be that already altered vaccine schedule that at least 7 chose to practice in 2000) however the study fails to show when the “developmental disability” appeared, or the nature of it or how it related to that one series of vaccines. The study was just looking at Thimerosal too, which is no longer in the vaccine and of course would now adays not explain the autism rates.

Of course it’s easy to say a cover-up, who did, how they hide it and how they wont admit it. Human nature is to blame others and it’s even made easier to do when there are no concrete answers to prove any of those things happened. Even more confusing to this whole thing is those who claim cures, those who claim they know the cause(s) to autism. But lets send letters of demand, demanding those very same people who knew it, are hiding it, are responsible for it that they stop genetic testing and do other testing. And isn’t it odd that no scientist of any country steps out of the box to get that ultimate price of finding the cause regardless of the Pharma and USA CDC? I suppose that one scientist was paid off.

But which is it here, every one, which of the many issues NAA has going on is the main focus?

Lisa -

You can view the abuse ads by going to our web site, then backslash abuse dot php. Yes, very positive outcome, but as with any ad campaign, the awareness itself carries some form of outcome. Quick, direct results are a rarity (unless we offered to pay people to stop hitting our kids or paid people to produce safer vaccines, then it’d be quick).

The AIDS protest is archived in the NIH library. Boston Globe did an article and LA Times. They ended up getting more drugs, more research money.

Lori

What I don’t understand is why can’t Lisa have her own view points? She is also a parent with a child with autism. Isn’t that being perpetual bias when others have a different opinion its trying to turn them to their own view points? That is just so wrong!!! Also the very something that everyone is complaining about it also in the air we breath and the food we eat. Why isn’t anyone questioning of how to have a cleaner environment? Could that also be one of the many causes to autism? Couldn’t that also be the reason as to the rates going up? One would think that if you believe that vaccines are the cause the things in the environment would also have the same impact. They are both going into the bloodstream and going to the brain.

Here are some examples of the things that are found and they are the very same things that is being complained about in vaccines.
Formaldehyde is a colorless gas with a strong, suffocating odor. It often is mixed with alcohol to make a liquid called formalin. The largest source of formaldehyde is the chemical manufacturing industry. Formaldehyde is found in cigarette smoke and also can be formed in the environment during the burning of fuels or household waste. Very small amounts of formaldehyde are found naturally in the human body.

Common Preservatives Added To Food
Sulfur: Keeps dried fruit fresh and soft
Formaldehyde: The stinky stuff from high school dissections and what undertakers use to preserve bodies is added to frozen vegetables as a disinfectant
Sodium Nitrates: Lunch meats, ham, and bacon are preserved with sodium nitrates which converts to nitrous acid in the stomach and may cause stomach cancer. Banned in Germany and Norway, but not in North America
Arsenic: Commercially-raised chickens eat feed with arsenic additives
Aluminum: linked to dementia, can leach into our food when used as packaging (like colas), and is also added to baking powder, antacids, and many antiperspirants

I suggest everyone refresh their memory with Robert Kennedy’s expose as briefly mentioned here…

I believe he’s a very honorable man.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIM2hwrLoc&NR=1
It’s a short interview on Scarborough who btw has an autistic child.

But once we refresh our memory with Robert Kennedy, are you assuming we’re all going to have the same opinion over it? Does he have the autism answers or does he just contribute to the conspiracy theory? Does anyone really believe that had anything really been ‘exposed’ of value, that we’d be at this blog today? Wasn’t some of the things he’s said retracted in the past as well??

Yes, that study is one that compares vaccinated children with unvaccinated children, it does NOT emcompass the vaccine regimen , only the Hepb with thimerosal. I was led there by a group of moms who said their children did not regress, they never knew a well baby, their children were damaged at day one with thimerosal. Note Robert Kennedy suggests one would have to weigh over 200 lbs to safely take in the amount of mercury given on these “birth” days. This explains, as well , the spike that is evident in children born those years, I may not be accurate on this but I believe these children would range in age from 8 to 20. Somewhere within this material it suggests that the lessening of thimerosal is beginning to show a halving of autism among children now 5, yet the caveat is there that 8 is a better age to determine if they’ve been diagnosed. The amount of shots, the mmr, the adjuvants (which are considered safe yet not tested in these unusually large amounts considering the number of vaccines currently used) are all suspect. The only people talking about safe vaccines seem to be those that are heading government agencies or have working agreements with drug companies and those that believe them.

So my understanding is that it is ok for Robert Kennedy to give his theory of opinion cause and not Lisa. How unbiased is that?? Again what makes the right and the wrong? Is it when it comes to ones opinion agreeing with another makes it right? Again isn’t that being bias?? Also no one seems to be responding the relation to the very same things that are found in our food and air are the something that are found in what is in the vaccines. One would think that the impact that would have would be also in relation to birth defects also being increased among other things being as well.

Well, logically then, if Kennedy suggests one would have to weigh over 200 lbs to be given that amount at birth, then all who had the vaccine with thimerosal would have a slim chance of not having a “developmental disability” or plain vaccine injury brain dead. Kennedy is shock value. However that study wasn’t just talking about the vacine at birth, it was talking about all 3-jab-series.

If the autism rates are decreasing then at age 5 and under, just where is the increase of autism ages??? Would that then suggest a misdiagnosis and a child is given the autism DX after age 5?? If autism isn’t noticed at toddler age, then explain how it can be the vaccines, providing the logic you’ve given?

Reading through these comments, I get the impression that those of you with HF kids have no concern for those who are not that fortunate. Sorry if that is not the case, but that is the impression you are leaving. Those of you who are “doing just fine” desire to silence those of us who aren’t. Why? Why is it so wrong for us to desire more for our loved ones? Parents of “typical” children most certainly do. That is a huge part of parenting. Desiring the very best of outcomes for you child. Why should it be any different for those who are not “typical’?

Those of us who want to look back and see that we have, without a doubt, done everything we humanly could to improve our children’s health, and therefore their quality of life and yes, even their autism are going to continue to speak out, loudly and often. We are willing to go the extra mile and do whatever it takes.

To say that anyone does not value, support or accept autistic people here in this discussion is childish. Please. We are all here because we do value, accept and support someone, if not many some ones with autism. Some of us just prefer to seek more than the status quo that’s been accepted for individuals with autism for entirely too long.

As for you not understanding my point about “mainstream” orgs and establishments, Mr. Wonderful expanded on and made my point quite well. If you or anyone else here doesn’t think those orgs and establishments that I mentioned have enormous memberships which are indeed national, you really do need to pay closer attention. Bio-meds, treating and curing autism are more the norm than not now-a-days. They are becoming highly successful, as well.

My take on the “How Much Longer Campaign” is not to shout out against the “status quo” establishments. It is to wake them up. We’d love for nothing more than to have them join us that all of those with autism might acquire a better quality of life and health.

My son is not HF, what would that matter? ASD is ASD! Just for info purpose my son also has an MR dx, which means he is not HF.

Sam’s Mom, no one is trying to silence anyone. You have every right and reason to speak your mind, as do those with different perspectives. If you read these comments, you know that everyone has had their say and no one has been silenced, edited or censored.

I certainly got the impression from Ms. Dachel’s note that she felt “accepting and supporting” children with autism was the wrong direction — preferring instead that we battle autism and eradicate it. Perhaps I misunderstood her, but I don’t think so. That’s not to say she is a bad or hurtful person — I don’t know her personally, but assume she’s a great mom. Rather, I assume, she is uncomfortable with what she likely considers to be my “neurodiverse” position. Of course, only Ms. Dachel can say for sure.

I don’t know the precise numbers of people involved in orgs and establishments that specifically support biomed interventions for autism and believe vaccines are a primary cause of an autism epidemic. I will say, one more time, that they are are not representative of scientific consensus, nor of the autism community as a whole. If they do represent your perspective, that’s great — both for you and for them.

Personally, I don’t think that this particular ad campaign is likely to change the direction of the CDC, NIH,etc. But I could be proven wrong, and only time will tell.

Lisa

It shouldn’t make a difference who has HF kids or not, at one time they were not most times. That would mean McCarthy of who has a recovered child could now not relate. It’s not an issue of HF and LF, that again is separating groups of parents as if either wouldn’t understand the other. Everyone wants good things for their children, the difference is how each going about getting that and I choose not to go this route with NAA. Like so many others, they are talking at the reader, and bring up the severe case scenario’s including parents committing suicide. Talk about a guilt trip unto the Nation.

And by the way, my child has a diagnosis of autism also with MR. HF or LF isn’t even part of a diagnosis anyway.

momof3~ I will take the time to acknowledge your comment. You forgot a few things like what drugs have been found in city drinking water that officials don’t think the level is high enough to cause an issue. I believe there is a combination of factors that can and do contribute to many things. If one noticed the map on Dateline, most of those with high autism rates are major manufacturing states. Now if one looked at the high levels of RX’s in drinking water, it’s bound to have some effect, maybe contribute to autism. Maybe vaccines and some of what you posted contribute. Not all things will effect all people in the same way, so it’s good to keep an open mind to all aspects surrounding us than to blame one single thing.

Lisa Jo wrote:
“Mom4Truth – I actually have no input into the sponsored ads on this site.”

Lisa Jo,
I never suggested that you do. I’m merely suggesting you take a look at your sponsors. Everyday parents are interested in bio-nutritonal, drug-free treatments as well as hyperbarics for their children. Parents are not clamoring for another heavy duty psychotropic drug with heavy duty side effects – which is essentially what the mainstream medical establishment provides.

The NAA ads reflect what’s important to your readers, judging by your sponsors. I think that’s worth acknowledging.

I agree with Lisa in this respect, I don’t want the “snake oil” salesmen hawking worthless or dangerous cures. I do quietly believe in vitamin d from sunshine, and some probiotics for the tummy. For those that have miraculous cures , like Jenny, my suspicion is they may have been among the many who seem to outgrow their diagnosis. The brain can sometimes heal, as can the body, however if we blindly have faith that what our pediatricians suggest is law , we may continue to do harm .This is my fear that we are keeping the children from healing by buying into a lie. It’s not a me against you , it’s a passionate concern. I wish that no one would vaccinate an autistic child.

So in other wards Lisa do you go by the weightloss,ford sponsors ads as well? Lisa doesn’t control the sponsors about.com does. Its more of the sponsors are trying to get the attention of the people to buy their products.

Thank you sandy for being the only one who took the time to respond to my post. I have questions and it seems nobody wants to answer them.

You have to understand where ads come from. Someone pays to have their ads there, that’s what pays for the site to run. It’s not that more parents want it, it’s more that more are promoting it to get customers. The ads I see are Ford car ads, diets of the stars and some ad about loosing 200 some pounds. depend on the page load depends on what ads you see. I have yet to see the bio ads. If you have a blog any where, you cannot control the ads on it most times. Now I do not see myself going on any diets due to the ads I see, and we already own a few Fords and hubby retired from Ford yea for those ads! I hope everyone buys Fords to keep my hubbys pension going based on those ads!

As for psych drugs, no one should be ashamed if they need them, but I will say mainstream never smothered me with that towards my son. And even if it is suggested, one it may be needed for some and some parents swear by the use of them and two, you don’t have to use medications at all. I talked to one mom who heard Prozac would make her child talk and she was out to get an RX for her child. So blaming mainstream goes both ways, there are plenty parents out there that want the meds.

I take that back, the flashy ads are eye catchers and you really have to look for other sponsor ads and her’es some of what I found:
Could It Be Autism? (well, yes it is autism)
Online Special Ed Degree (maybe I already have one, but if I don’t, whose paying?)
Help Your Autistic Child (Selling of DVD’s to help a child speak)

Of course these ads change as well at page load, but who pays any attention to ads? And what do they have to do with NAA?

Mom4Truth – I actually do have access to the stats for my site, and can see how many come, what they’re searching for, etc.

What I see is that most come from Google, in search of the terms “autism,” “autism symptoms,” “causes of autism,” “adults with autism,” “asperger syndrome.”

Nowhere in the top searches is any term regarding a particular treatment, approach, therapy, nutritional regimen, or anything else along those lines. Nor do I get many emails on the subject.

My guess is that folks who are truly interested go to sites like Autism.com that specialize in Biomed.

Of course, I don’t know whether people click on the ads to learn more from the sponsors!

Lisa

“You read a lot of articles where a child ran off and they drowned, where’s the advocacy towards parents on safety items to keep a child safe”

NAA is actually a leading org on this issue. Our FOUND Program pays for Project Lifesaver/Lojack tracking equipment for sheriff’s offices around the country. Children with autism who may wander are found quickly through the use of this equipment. We’ve also worked on a federal level to get our children covered under the AMBER Alert system. Currently, AMBER Alerts can only be issued for children that have been seen abducted. We also have a safety toolkit on our site that provides tips for keeping children with autism safe. We’ve had ad campaigns about the specific issues you mention, and ongoing advocacy.

Lori

Well, not that the NAA alone does any of those things, they are one but of many would be a fair statement. Many also offer safety tips and Project Life Saver serves more than just children with autism, and many types of orgs and people donate to that non profit. The thing with Project Life saver is if that call comes in frequently that you need the Life Saver locator, the parents can be charged with neglect and many are so this alone is not the answer. It’s not the preventative, it’s who you call once the person/ child walked away and doesn’t take away from the accountability, which was my point in reference to the teacher not being fired. Parents can get into big trouble if their child is missing all the time. As for the Amber Alert, that is based on abducted children which has the potential to of course leave the area, more than likely in a car. Adding wandering children with autism may not be as effective adding those to the Amber Alert, since they are on foot, most times hiding in places that’s hard to see. The difference here would be finding ways to prevent that child from wandering away to begin with and keeping them safely where they need to be.

Lisa – You said “I’m not sure how the statement “the CDC and FDA and other US government agencies are the mainstream” could possible be controversial. IMHO, it’s just a matter of fact. If the established government isn’t the mainstream, then what is?!”
And no one should disagree with the establishment?
No one should SHOUT at the establishment?
And that’s why:
We still have legal slavery in America.

Afro-Americans still can’t ride the bus in Montgomery.

People of color still can’t vote.

You can still be too poor to afford to buy your legal Food Stamps.

Married women still have to always take their husband’s names.

There is still child labor in America’s factories.

There is no such thing as the 8 hour work day.

We still need to start up Social Security and Medicare.

Polio is still running amok among America’s children every Summer.

Disabled people are still all in institutions.

There was that government coup leading to President Nixon dying while still in office

and why the Vietnam War is still going on.

Mr. Wonderful,

No one on this blog has said “the mainstream is always right.” It isn’t.

But I have no idea where your statements are coming from.

Millions of women have married and not taken their husband’s names: I’m one of them!

People of color not only vote, but become the President of the United States.

Polio is essentially eradicated in the United States.

Yes, the US Government screws up — but not in the ways you’re describing!

Lisa

Open Letter to President Obama: Time is of the Essence to Meet with Autism Community

Dear Mr. President,

As I think back to the hope I felt watching your inauguration, tears steam down my face. I had this fallacy that you were going to make an extraordinary difference in our community. I know that it has only been 9 months, but on this issue time is of the essence!

I reflect how we cheered, danced and cried as we witnessed history in the making; and now I sit depleted of hope, almost enraged that you continue to ignore the autism community. On September 2, 2009 I saw a great message on a friend’s Facebook wall,

“…thinks that no one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick. If you agree, please post this as your status for the rest of the day.”

Of course, I reposted it and was amiably pleased to see the message infiltrated through my Facebook network within hours. Then the next day, I was even more amazed to see your response to this posting,

“Barack Obama Encouraged to see this going around today: “No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick. If you agree, please post this as your status for the rest of the day.””

But, here is the thing… I am amazed not so much that you (or your PR people) were actually watching what we post… but, more so, that you are watching what we post and what that means about you. Let me explain, you are listening and that means that you have been seeing the outcry of requests from the autism community to meet with you, Michelle, or both… and yet, you continue to not respond. We haven’t even received as much as a “no thank you” in response to this personal invitation.

YET, you responded to a general posting infiltrating the virtual world exactly one week before the requested meet-up with Angela Warner, military mom and autism advocate representing many. Your non-action speaks louder than words, Mr. President.

I am aware you will make an education public address to the youth of America on Tuesday afternoon… please understand that 1 out of 150 (some say 60 now) of these children are inflicted with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). They have communication barriers, cognitive and developmental delays, and sensory deficits… I am certain the majority will not be able to comprehend what they are listening to over the public audio system.

When my daughters’ schools announced that they would be allowing the address to be piped through the classrooms, my initial response was to question how effective this was going to be. Apparently, you are more optimistic than I. I know that my five year old along with the other children experiencing ASD will not comprehend a word you say. In fact, she may have broken thoughts of why the teachers are being intrusive on her set routine to make her listen to this abstract voice that she cannot decipher.

It would probably do you, the voters, the parents, and our children better to meet with the parents on the front line; not only about autism, but education, health care, and the false idealization of no child left behind.

It does take a village, Mr. President, but the village needs elders with integrity that are willing to listen to what the villagers are saying. So, I ask, “Will you listen to what we are saying? Will you meet with Angela Warner on September 9th? Will you help us address this epidemic among our youth? Will you reinstall hope in a community that feels left behind?”

Thank you for your action!
Susan Richardson
Mother, Wife & Autism Advocate

Lisa – Now I don’t understand your reply.
But I have no idea where your statements are coming from.
“Millions of women have married and not taken their husband’s names: I’m one of them!
People of color not only vote, but become the President of the United States.
Polio is essentially eradicated in the United States.”
It’s called change, and those changes took place because the people SHOUTED at the establishment.
Fifty or sixty years ago you would be receiving mail addressed to “Mrs. Hubby’sFirstName Hubby’sLastName”. Fifty or sixty years ago many people of color couldn’t vote. Fifty or sixty years ago many people of color couldn’t ride in the front of the bus.
These things all changed because the people SHOUTED at the establishment.

Sixty years ago polio did run amok every summer. The vaccines that have eradicated polio weren’t developed by the “establishment” organizations you have mentioned. They were developed by private research.

I was reading a few posts back about someone’s concern over drowning. I think the stats indicate that there is an increased risk of such tragic ventures into water areas without supervision among autistic children. Rather than suggest an amber alert type of system, which would be far too late, perhaps parents and group camp leaders should employ child tracking devices, they are available from the simplest wrist band to more elaborate phone systems.

On the “other” topic, here it would be rare for a doctor to not offer a waiver for future vaccines, in fact I know in our family waivers are offered to siblings , as well. If you have true convictions and believe thimerosal, rubella, measles, hepb, and others couldn’t have contributed to autism then I suspect you wouldn’t accept a waiver?

Lisa – It would seem that your definition of “mainstream” is those who agree with or simply believe whatever the CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP, etc tell them. BUT, what if those groups are wrong?

Those mainstream organizations are science-based. New ideas replace old all the time, usually when new evidence comes along that warrants a change in thinking.

This is what separates “mainstream” groups from fringe junk-science groups such as the NAA. Science-based means going wherever the evidence leads you, and currently the best available science has found no association between vaccines and autism. Junk science works directly the opposite – it assumes a premise (vaccines cause autism!), and then looks for evidence to support the assumption, while discarding or explaining away contrary evidence. If the NAA wants to make a valuable contribution to parents, then it needs to fund legitimate research instead of pushing product.

Don’t forget that for about 25 or 30 years the CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP, etc thought Bruno Bettleheim’s refrigerator mother theory was right.

I have never seen a position paper from any of those groups that endorsed Bettleheim’s perposterous hypothesis which, incidentally, had only anecdotal support. Bettleheim’s preposterous idea gained currency in 1967 with the publication of The Empty Fortress, and was widely promoted by a credulous news and entertainment media. Your claim that the AAP and others officially signed on to Bettleheim’s nonsense well into the 90s is self-serving folderol.

Autismnewsbeat said;
“I have never seen a position paper from any of those groups that endorsed Bettleheim’s perposterous (preposterous?) hypothesis which, incidentally, had only anecdotal support. Bettleheim’s preposterous idea gained currency in 1967 with the publication of The Empty Fortress, and was widely promoted by a credulous news and entertainment media. Your claim that the AAP and others officially signed on to Bettleheim’s nonsense well into the 90s is self-serving folderol.”

You have your time line off by about 15 to 20 years. In a 1949 paper, Kanner suggested autism may be related to a “genuine lack of maternal warmth”. in the early 50s Bettelheim championed the notion that autism was the product of mothers who were cold, distant and rejecting.
In 1964 Bernie Rimland wrote “Infantile Autism:” which attacked the refrigerator mother hypothesis directly.
You probably wouldn’t see a position paper by the APA, CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP etc because you probably weren’t born when that idea was “mainstream” thinking and no one was posting things like that on the net at that time. But the idea did linger. In the late ’70s and early ’80s when we knew there was some kind of problem, our pediatrician kept telling us it was just a phase he was going through and he would outgrow it. (My son is almost 33 and he hasn’t outgrown it yet.) Even later in the ’80s the school psychologist kept saying that he was emotionally disturbed, until we showed up at his IEP with an independent evaluation that DXed him with autism.

Mr. Wonderful et al — I am not against advocacy or even activism. I am not suggesting that the status quo is always good or that the group in power is always right.

Please, please don’t put words into my mouth!

Lisa

That is exactly what they do when not agreeing with their opinions. They hear what they want and twist it to what they want. Been in the autsim community for 7 years and my son is now 11. It’s always the same thing!!!!

Mr. Wonderful~ in the late 70′s and early 80′s would had made your child school-age then, not toddler. This is not an example of lingering refrig mothers, they weren’t blaming the mother with the explanation he’ll out grow it and it being a phase or even emotionally disturbed however it may be related to ideals of refrig mother, but you’ve given a good example of a misdiagnosis (really a no diagnosis) that had happened to many kids during that era and even before then.

What you’re talking about is the assumed cause (refrig mom’s) of autism and confusing it with an actual diagnosis. You don’t have to have a cause in order to have diagnosis. Actually it’s an example of just a child getting that diagnosis of autism and how it didn’t happen easily.

Sandy~ Dave was born in December 1976, so yes, he was a toddler in the late ’70s.

Again, what you’re talking about is the assumed cause (refrig mom’s) of autism and confusing it with an actual diagnosis. You don’t have to have a cause in order to have diagnosis. Actually it’s an example of just a child getting that diagnosis of autism and how it didn’t happen easily. Autism wasn’t even part of IDEA during those years. The school psychologist would have said that he was emotionally disturbed, probably to qualify for services.

Sandy, the school psychologist wasn’t doing an eval on Dave at the time. He was 8 at the time and was already qualified for services. The psychologist was evaluating one of our other children and made a casual comment that she thought Dave was emotionally disturbed because he was doodling on a piece of paper.
AND, I never said that you needed a cause in order to have a diagnosis.

Sorry, you’re the one combining refrig mom’s to the story about your child and his DX. Maybe it was just a poor example on your end of what ‘mainstream’ thought at one time but the fact as it stands, there’s been a ton of thought cause(s) for autism over the years and as of today, we still don’t have one. Much of these thoughts are just public opinion and even better than the frig mom’s is bad parenting Of course very few recognizes either as the actual cause.

You probably wouldn’t see a position paper by the APA, CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP etc because you probably weren’t born when that idea was “mainstream” thinking and no one was posting things like that on the net at that time.

By that logic I’ve never seen the Gettysburg Address, or a poem by Keats, since I wasn’t around then. But that doesn’t matter since you’re the one who claims that the AAP et. al. publicly supported the Refrigerator Mother theory. Do you have any proof, or did you just make that up?

By that logic I’ve never seen the Gettysburg Address, or a poem by Keats, since I wasn’t around then.
Those are historic and literary works and therefore preserved.
I doubt APA, CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP etc archieve position statements anywhere online. Even the Libary of Congress web site (http://thomas.loc.gov/) only covers the 101st Congress (1989) through current Congress.
Perhaps these groups never even issued position papers about the Refrigerator Mother theory, but it was the mindset of the time.

Lisa ~ You have referred to the NAA and other groups as being based on junk science. In the 1840s doctors such as Oliver Wendell Holmes and Ignaz Semmelweis claimed that childbirth fever was transmitted from patient to patient because doctors didn’t wash their hands or change their clothes between deliveries. Their ideas were panned by the “mainstream” establishment as “junk science” or whatever term they used then. Soldiers during the Civil War died of infections after surgerys for the same reason. The idea of washing hands between patients was considered “junk science”.
It wasn’t until the late 1870s when people like Koch, Lister and Pasteur developed their germ theory that doctors washed between patients.
Antiseptic washing only started in the early part of the 20th century because up until then it was considered junk science.

actually, Mr. Wonderful, it was ANB and not me who used the term “junk science.”

Lisa

“Perhaps these groups never even issued position papers about the Refrigerator Mother theory, but it was the mindset of the time.” Mind set by mainstream? Including parents? Now we’re talking ‘theory’ of cause here, and regardless of those theories doesn’t excuse the fact the child still had autism. Mainstream, which is what many are stuck on, when thinking about NAA, only a portion of the autism community would consider them that, and a few straggling typical parents without autism. The general population wouldn’t even know who they were, or who GR is, or any of those others. If any of the general public heard of any, it would be Autism Speaks but of course if you’re general population, they are fast forgotten. Only those of the autism community really pays attention. Maybe a better way to look at it is look at some other area of Gov. Not every single person in the USA will agree with it, even if the proof or need is right in front of their face. Who really cares about what went on in the 1800′s? That’s when medical science was in it’s infancy and I wouldn’t really use the term ‘junk science’ for that time period of discoveries. Even today, medical science doesn’t know everything and is learning new things every day. It’s also hard to know of the population of the 1800′s, what the general population considered at all so if we’re to compare those years to present day and assume “junk science” will be learned to be more than just that, you kind need that evidence thereafter or you’re just making a blank comparative to sort of say “yea, they said this way back when and look, washing hands and germs wasn’t junk so in time, I betcha this wont be junk either”. And maybe it wont be junk, but at this time it’s all open for opinions, based on science (which is much better these days than the 1800′s).

For those who want to believe this or that is main stream, that’s your right to do so but do not try and convince me they are. For those who talk about science this or that, unfortunately No science has come up with definitive answer that everyone can agree on, or the NAA wouldn’t be asking the President for more studies, of course asking specifically not for more genetic based studies, which means the NAA is leaving out those with autism who never had one vaccine to account for their autism.

Don’t forget that for about 25 or 30 years the CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP, etc thought Bruno Bettleheim’s refrigerator mother theory was right.

I haven’t forgotten, and it now appears this statement sprang from your imagination, or maybe something you read on AgeOfAutism. Perhaps you could clear that up for us.

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., was also an ardent critic of medical quackery, and called homeopathy “the pretended science” that was a “mingled mass of perverse ingenuity, of tinsel erudition, of imbecile credulity, and of artful misrepresentation, too often mingled in practice”.

Yes, Ignaz Semmelweis was ignored for too long, but it’s instructive to look at why. His discovery came in 1847, but he didn’t publish a detailed and evidence-based study until 1861. Mainstream doctors derided him in the meantime precisely because they weren’t ready for evidence-based medicine.

By arguing against “mainstream medicine” today, you are unwittingly advocating for a return to the standards that shunned Semmelweis.

Sandy ~ Who really cares about what went on in the 1800’s?
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. I used that as an example of how slowly the “mainstream” establishment is to accept new ideas. They are especially slow to accept ideas that contradict what they have been professing as the right way for a long time.
In my example the “mainstream” was basing there opposition to hygene on opinion and the others based theirs on scientific research.

Mr. Wonderful you said it perfectly. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. You’re seeing that right now in the UK.

actually, Mr. Wonderful, it was ANB and not me who used the term “junk science.”

Lisa

MY BAD

We discussed autism when I was a child, the refrigerator mom was the opinion of the time. I remember my mother saying, there has to be more to it than that, being a refrigerator mom and not having an autistic child gave her a good position from which to speak. In the shadow of Hopkins, with the kinds of neighbors we had, topics were strange as were some of the “most educated” . Even then there was great division among the docs , the doc behind us did NOT vaccinate, the doc across the street grabbed them for his children like candy, was on the front line, getting them before they were available to the public. The Korean pediatrician, didn’t know to sterilize her formula and thought breastfeeding wasn’t natural. You really can’t trust your pediatrician, they are as human as you are, no brighter, you must make your own decisions and live with them. I was the first in our state , with the exception of nih director’s grandson’s jab, to use dtap. Looking back I avoided what I thought was a dangerous whole cell pertussis and may have taken a bigger risk. Don’t tell me that only a few children react, I’ve NEVER seen a child that didn’t react to shots, they all do.

NAA is the organization responsible for an awful hatchet job about Paul Offit which Reuters inexplicably carried yesterday. Rebuttals to this story and earlier nonsense are at evilpossum.weebly.com and counteringageofautism.blogspot.com

Refrig Moms was based on a theory that the mother of a child did not give an infant enough emotional care or bonding. People today think it’s due to lack of discipline. Neither theory is a medicine/ related cause, but parental cause. It doesn’t matter today what anyone thought of years ago, we know today it is not true however are we then saying in relation to Refrig Mom’s, that those who believe it’s vaccines will also be proven wrong as well?

I also have never seen a child who didn’t react to an air borne virus. What’s in vaccines? Small amounts of….. a virus. If you think that reaction to the vaccine was bad, imagine exposure to the full virus from neighbor kid down the road who forgot to wash their hands or cover their cough. Your body is suppose to react, that’s what the body does when exposed to a virus…. getting a fever means your body is fighting the virus and building anti bodies against it. The question really is, who had that Long Term Serious Side Effect.

No one addressed the question I had as to why this date was chosen. I figured it out by watching the news tonight. Hard to know if NAA had the symbolic notion, hard to say that they didn’t. Of all the dates they could had chosen, it is odd to have chosen that particular date without realizing it’s meaning.

Hi Lisa,

I wanted to go back your article and the NAA.

So I read the first link about bad old Tom Insel and it is striking how there is no actual information about results that have been obtained.

OK, so I went to the NAA site, and Safeminds, and Age of Autism, and putchildrenfirst, and Generation Rescue etc and amazingly I couldn’t find on any of them any sort of a summary of what has been learned on the etiology of autism.

I did find some very strong language about how mainstream science won’t investigate environmental causes of autism.

This is incredibly bizarre since probably the single biggest topic in the etiology of autism for the last 40 years is the importance of the combination of genetics and the environment.

Here are just a couple of papers–selected because the entire papers are available on line:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1637814&blobtype=pdf

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/picrender.cgi?artid=6593&blobtype=pdf

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/reprint/26/26/6897

These are offered as just a sample, if you research the topic there is a mountain of evidence.

So then the question becomes why do all these groups pretend that this data doesn’t exist?

I mean other than the fact that there is massive data from this research showing that autism starts around day 20 post conception and thus there is no possible way that autism could be caused by the vaccines a child received.

Sorry–I guess it was a rhetorical question.

Anyway, as David Brown pointed out (09Sep 7:14pm) the NAA–unable to support their view with a rational argument–is reduced to fabricating personal attacks on Offit. I see this as an admission that they know they are wrong and simply don’t care.

9.9.09 is German for “No. No. Oh no!”

It symbolizes the deep denial of the anti-vaccine movement.

I do like that explanation LOL! Of course that’s not what I seen on the news tonight Flip the numbers upside down. Of all the dates they could had chosen, it is odd to have chosen that particular date without realizing it’s meaning.

Sandy “the question really is, who had that Long Term Serious Side Effect”
My answer is “each and every one of them”, we recognise 1 out of 6 have learning or behavioral issues, the other five probably don’t qualify for a diagnosis. If you were to compare your autistic 13 yr old, for example, to a neurotypical vaccinated child of the same age, you WILL see similarities, this is the reason that other mothers say, yes my son flaps sometimes, or is horribly obsessive too, and you get angry, you say,” no my child is autistic, you don’t understand”. Yes they understand, because they all were affected to a degree, yours may have been injured more profoundly but don’t think they weren’t injured ,as well. Don’t think they don’t put up with meltdowns in the mall, flapping, central auditory processing disorders, speech delays,obsessive compulsive behavior, and physical symptoms of exzema , chronic bowel disturbances, tics,and on and on. In my house the only one that is really okay has had no vaccines. He is 20 months old and leans over the older kids when they are “acting out” and says, “are you okay” and pats them. No he’s not some super genius with unusual empathy, and he isn’t neurotypical or normal by todays standards, but he is both according to the standards pre 1989. Do I worry about disease, you betcha , it makes me sick that we can’t have an assurance of safety in vaccines.

Compare whose autistics 13 year old? Surely you’re not speaking about my child (who is much younger than that) and I kindly ask you that if you have the need to compare, to compare your own kids, not other’s. I’m not talking about the symptom’s you are describing as autism. Some of what you do describe, much of the population also has those same things for instance eczema. Tics can come from many places and so can OCD. Learning or behavioral issues can also come from many places.

How long Day is over, it’s too bad it’s focus was mainly vaccines. It looks to me that many were and are expecting perfect kids and when they are not, by golly it was the vaccines. There is no proof vaccines are not safe for the majority, and we have yet to figure out just who that small subset might be.

it makes me sick that we can’t have an assurance of safety in vaccines.

Everything has risk. Vaccines are far safer than the diseases they protect us against.

BarbaraJ — am I understanding correctly that you believe all children are vaccine injured to one extent or another, which is why kids sometimes flap or obsess even when they’re deemed “neurotypical?”

Not to be a Pollyanna, but it seems to me all of us have our quirky behaviors — old and young, even those who grew up before antibiotics and vaccines.

If our society is so rigid that a few flaps and unusual behaviors make us “injured,” we’re on the wrong path! (IMHO)

Lisa

I’m sorry, I don’t want to argue, I don’t want to attempt to push my beliefs on anyone, I only wish that before you dismiss the idea that all children are damaged to some extent that time would be taken to view a classroom of children that have NEVER received a vaccine. You will notice there “aren’t many quirks”.

from the journal of american pediatrics..read between the lines..
Unvaccinated children tended to be white, to have a mother who was married and had a college degree, to live in a household with an annual income exceeding $75 000, and to have parents who expressed concerns regarding the safety of vaccines and indicated that medical doctors have little influence over vaccination decisions for their children. Unvaccinated children were more likely to be male than female. Annually, 17 000 children were unvaccinated. The largest numbers of unvaccinated children lived in counties in California, Illinois, New York, Washington, Pennsylvania, Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, and Michigan. States that allowed philosophical exemptions to laws mandating vaccinations for children as they entered school had significantly higher estimated rates of unvaccinated children. ”

Does this suggest if these children are “more normal” that they can blame the parents education and income, the thinking being they were “going to be okay anyway”??

BarbaraJ — Have you actually visited a public classroom filled with unvaccinated children and compared their fidgets and quirks with a classful of typical kids?

The problem with this idea is that the vast majority public schools require vaccinations.

If you were to compare a public school classroom with, say, a classroom full of unvaccinated Amish kids (though even among the Amish vaccination is prevalent), you’d be comparing apples and oranges.

Amish culture, expectations, school settings and expectations are completely different from the mainstream.

Quite honestly, I do not believe we are all vaccine damaged, nor do I believe that today’s seniors are less quirky than today’s kids. But I can’t prove this: I can only say that based on observation it seems to me that humans are a quirky bunch!

Lisa

You’re quoting Smith (2004), in Pediatrics.

Here’s the abstract:

Children who have received no vaccines: who are they and where do they live?

Smith PJ, Chu SY, Barker LE.

CONTEXT: Each year 2.1 million children 19 to 35 months of age are undervaccinated. Among these are children who have received no vaccinations. Unvaccinated children are at increased risk of acquiring and transmitting vaccine-preventable diseases.

OBJECTIVES: To assess whether the characteristics of children with no vaccinations differ from those of undervaccinated children, to monitor trends in the numbers of unvaccinated children, and to identify states with high rates and counties with large numbers of unvaccinated children.

DESIGN: A nationally representative probability sample of children 19 to 35 months of age was collected annually between 1995 and 2001. Vaccination histories were ascertained from children’s medical providers. Undervaccinated children had received > or =1 dose of diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis, polio, measles, Haemophilus influenzae type b, hepatitis B, or varicella vaccine but were not fully vaccinated. Unvaccinated children were children who were reported as having no medical providers and having received no vaccinations or children whose medical providers reported administering no vaccinations.
PARTICIPANTS: A total of 151,720 children sampled between 1995 and 2001, 795 of whom were unvaccinated.

RESULTS: Undervaccinated children tended to be black, to have a younger mother who was not married and did not have a college degree, to live in a household near the poverty level, and to live in a central city. Unvaccinated children tended to be white, to have a mother who was married and had a college degree, to live in a household with an annual income exceeding 75,000 dollars, and to have parents who expressed concerns regarding the safety of vaccines and indicated that medical doctors have little influence over vaccination decisions for their children. Unvaccinated children were more likely to be male than female. Annually, approximately 17,000 children were unvaccinated. The largest numbers of unvaccinated children lived in counties in Calif, Ill, NY, Wash, Penn, Texas, Okla, Col, Utah, and Mich. States that allowed philosophical exemptions to laws mandating vaccinations for children as they entered school had significantly higher estimated rates of unvaccinated children.

CONCLUSIONS: Unvaccinated children have characteristics that are distinctly different from those of undervaccinated children. Unvaccinated children are clustered geographically, increasing the risk of transmitting vaccine-preventable diseases to both unvaccinated and undervaccinated children.

CONCLUSIONS: Unvaccinated children have characteristics that are distinctly different from those of undervaccinated children

Yep, so if you are black you just miss a few vaccines because you’re poor ..if you’re white you made a conscientious decision. Sorry I don’t like this.
The problem these authors later suggest is that more education is needed in the area of vaccination. Oh yep, educate the educated, they are the “wrong” ones.

Lisa, no, there are no public schools, but there are many private ones popping up , some here use them because they have damaged kids and don’t want vaccines in their future, however many kids are in these schools because their parents choose not to vaccinate at all.

You missed one important part “Unvaccinated children are clustered geographically, increasing the risk of transmitting vaccine-preventable diseases to both unvaccinated and undervaccinated children.”
My sister is white and she missed vaccines for her son because she didn’t have insurance. More than likely it was the same case for those in the study, however I’d be betting to say they also lacked other medical care they needed besides vaccines.

I also disagree that everyone who has had a vaccine is some how damaged or injured. Of course it cant be proven one way or the other but in order for any one to be considered damaged, one really has to do more than hand flap, which happens to be a common toddler thing. That alone means nothing. Also it is disturbing the mindset of having to be normal based on who’s interpretation of normal? It’s a shame every human being cant be an individual and has to follow a set of social norms or they are to be judged and considered damaged.

I will also say again, look at the number of unvaccinated in that study. How much greener can one get than making the choice not to? They obviously weren’t sitting in jail participating in the study.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-bob-sears/vaccines-and-autism-what_b_279745.html

This is exactly how the doctors in our practice operate.

Nothing like rehashing Wakefield all over again and Offit. Wasn’t this already a topic here? And look, this one has a book, too. The only thing of value any of that article had was what you could always do, and that is “You can pick and choose vaccines.” You can get any greener than that, if green is what you’re looking for. You probably don’t need to buy a book either to be choosy.

I didn’t get that at all, I thought the gist was saying vaccines are safe for most, but not for all…make your decision based on how you interpret the health of your own child…and probably you shouldn’t give autistic children an mmr booster just “in case”..

My kid had the MMR, but then his diagnosis was infantile onset, meaning it was there before his first MMR. He had the booster, ‘just in case’ he didn’t build those immunities, couldn’t imagine autism and the measles, or autism and the mumps. It didn’t make him have autism any worse or better than he already had. People should probably consider those things, when a child cant accurately tell you if they feel they’re catching a cold, or have a sore throat, or cant swallow fever reducer, or those kids with autism who put everything in their mouths and catch every germ known to man and then some. My kid had only 2 ear infections in his life, severe ones too and I had no clue he had infections at all other than the fever. Imagine writing a social story called “why I have a swollen throat” or “mommy, why am I this sick?”

Just in case, people probably shouldn’t give medical advice without meeting the patient.

Sears admits there is no science to back up his alternative schedule, yet his schedule calls for nine visits to the ped’s office in the first year. The AAP’s calls for 3 or 4.

ANB said ~ “Sears admits there is no science to back up his alternative schedule, yet his schedule calls for nine visits to the ped’s office in the first year. The AAP’s calls for 3 or 4.”
Just imagine your kid having Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis all at the same time. Then a few months later Measles, Mumps, Rubella and Varicella all at the same time.
That’s what is happening to their immune system when they get a bunch of vaccines all lumped together in one visit.
Then there is Thimerosal. I’m sure you wouldn’t let your child play with the spilt mercury from a broken thermometer? But you would allow a doctor to inject it directly into your kid?

Mercury from a thermometer is not the same nor a fair comparative, nice scare tactic though. The most dangerous form of mercury is in a vapor form if you weren’t aware of that.
Thimerosal is no longer in childhood vaccines, and there is no evidence that autism is not anything but a neurological disorder, not immune.

“Thimerosal is no longer in childhood vaccines, and there is no evidence that autism is not anything but a neurological disorder, not immune.”

I’m sorry, but are you kidding me????

Lisa Jo said, “Granted we have a long, long way to go before people with autism -or any developmental or mental disability – are fully accepted, supported, and valued.”

You don’t get it at all–autism is not a developmental or mental disability. It is a MEDICAL disability, which can be biomedically treated and healed.

No, Thimerosal is not in childhood vaccines any more and as for what autism is, it’s diagnosed with a DSM. You tell me where in that DSM tells you it’s a immune disorder???? People do have immune disorder’s all the time, and there’s many out there as well. Many have them and don’t and never did have autism.

Sarah, it’s not that I don’t get it. I get it. I’ve read Wakefield’s work, interviewed folks at Thoughtful House and ARI, and written extensively about their theories of autism causation.

I simply don’t agree with their theories.

Lisa

Depends on what site you get your info from, but Lisa was quite correct; developmental or mental disability are both medical issues. As for healing, there also is no evidence other than McCarthy that a child is healed and exactly what that is and proof of who can be healed.

Autism Society= Autism is a complex developmental disability
AS= Autism is a general term used to describe a group of complex developmental brain disorders known as Pervasive Developmental Disorders (PDD).
Wikipedia= Autism is a brain development disorder characterized by ….
Mayo= Autism is one of a group of serious developmental problems called autism spectrum disorders (ASD)

Any form of mercury is dangerous. It is the same if it is in a vaccine, a thermometer or a vapor. The vapor is considered dangerous because it can be inhaled and then absorbed into the blood steam through the lungs.
A vaccine pumps it directly into the blood stream.
And yes it is still in vaccines. It is there in what they like to call “trace” amounts. And when you get you seasonal flu and your swine flu vaccine check the information sheet that comes with every vial. (Contains Thimerosal).
The labels reads “PANDEMIC INFLUENZA VACCINE”. Who is using scare tactics?

Sorry Mr. Wonderful, the flu mist does not contain thimerosal, and the flu jabs for kids don’t contain it, either. And yes, there are different types of thimerosal/ mercury and we cant say any is dangerous since many had vaccines since the 1930′s and do not have autism. Vaccines are also not go directly into the blood stream, no one get’s them intravenously. So stop spreading scare tactics. A trace amount is nothing compared to what was in the vaccines anyway and besides that, the autism rates are not dropping anyway. And why is there mercury in tuna fish? Environmental. No one injected those fish with a vaccine. You’d get more exposure to mercury in the environment than you probably do with any trace amount of the total vaccine schedule.

The thing of it is, no one knows if it’s the MMR, the once full doses of thimerosal or trace amounts or the viruses itself or the saline in vaccines, or something else totally unrelated. But you can not compare a thermometer to a vaccine injection. Two different things.

Lisa, you replied earlier “I’m sorry if you don’t feel autistic people should be accepted, supported and valued. Certainly I would add that autistic people should be also educated, challenged, employed, housed … and everything else that we want for ourselves and our children.
“No more autism” is a complicated goal, IMHO. That’s because “autism” is such an incredibly broad-ranging term these days.”

I don’t know any people with autism or their family members who don’t want to be accepted, supported and valued.
Remember polio? Okay, if you are less than 50 years old you don’t remember polio.
Those who didn’t die from polio also wanted to be accepted, supported and valued, but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t want to see a cure and/or prevention for it.
AUTISM isn’t “an incredibly broad-ranging term these days.”
The American Psychiatric Association, the nice folks who publish the DSM IV, don’t have a catagory called Autism Spectrum Disorders. They list autism, apserger’s and PDD-NOS under a catagory called Pervasive Development Disorders (PDD) and ADHD under something called Attention-deficit and disruptive behavior disorders.
Autism is listed in the DSM IV as 299.00 Autism.
Asperger’s, Rett’s Syndrome and PDD-NOS are listed as 299.80 and ADHD is listed as 314.00 and 314.01.

Perhaps what is needed is to seperate autism, asperger’s ADHD, PDD-NOS and deal with each seperately.
That way people with classic Kanner Autism or their parents can persue causes and cures and others who don’t think they need a cure can go through life as they choose.

OH Sandy
You are so right, vaccines aren’t given intravenously. They are given Intramuscularly. But the entire vaccine is absorbed into the blood stream from there. Since influenza is a resperatory disease, the vacine wouldn’t do much good if it stayed in the shoulder muscle or butt or where ever else the shot went.
And you are so right a thermometer and a vaccine injection are two different things. That was a very astute observation on your part.
Thermometers are made to keep the mercury inside, vaccines inject it directly into a human body.

So what you’re saying is what’s in our foods or the air that we’re breathing which has the same exact components as vaccines (pretty much), wouldn’t be a factor? It all ends up in the same place doesn’t it? The flu is a virus contracted via the air, or a vaccine via a small amount of the virus to build immunities however when speaking about any flu vaccine, you show me where that at all factors into autism to begin with.

Sandy,
Since you mentioned mercury in fish, I have a question for you.
Have you ever been pregnant? If so, your doctor probably suggested that you not eat certain types of fish and limit the amount of fish because of the mercury and the possibility of it causing neurological damage to your unborn child.
But the same doctor would recommend a thimerosal laden flu shot while you were pregnant.

The first step to correcting a problem is to acknowledge that there is a problem in the first place.

This has not been done. You don’t see a problem because, hey, there isn’t any real evidence of an epidemic. 1% of all children born have always been autistic.

Deny that a problem exists, and you don’t have to fix it? This is the logic of the Vaccine defenders? Stick your head in the sand….maybe the problem will go away.

Excuse me Sandy,
At what point did I ever say that other environmental exposures to mercury didn’t contribute to autism? What I have been saying is that the thimerosal in vaccines has assed to the mercury burden to newborns and infants has increased since the huge increase of childhood vaccines in the 1990s.
Where does all this factor into autism? Look up some of the symptoms of mercury poisoning and compare them to autism and “autism spectrum disorders”.

Why yes, I was pregnant a few times but I only have one child. And why is there mercury in tuna fish? Environmental. Let me say that again, Environmental. No one injected those fish with a vaccine. No, my doctors never said a thing about eating fish, since at that time who knew but even still, when you’re pregnant your food choices happen to change and although I like fish it wasn’t something I ever ate anyway while pregnant. There’s other ways to get meat protein, ever hear of vitamins? No, my doctor never suggested a flu vaccine to me while pregnant, no doctor did during any pregnancy or otherwise not being pregnant although my doctor has recommended the pneumonia vaccine since I get it every October, but I have yet to decide on that. Oh, and one more thing, I have not one filling in my mouth either and never did. I really dislike the references to what women did while pregnant.

Try not to assume what other doctors tells their patients. The flu vaccine still has nothing to do with autism.

Craig,
I see your point here. But the CDC has actually referred to the situation as an Autism Epidemic. Several years ago they said that the rate of autism was 1 in 150. That’s a huge increase from the 1 in 10,000 way back in the 1980s.
Of course some sheeple refuse to acknowledge those figures, even if they come from the “mainstream” establishment.

OOOOPPPPs
My comment “What I have been saying is that the thimerosal in vaccines has assed to the mercury burden” should have read “What I have been saying is that the thimerosal in vaccines has ADDED to the mercury burden”
Someone put the “S” key right next to the “D” key.
MY BAD!!

Craig~ it’s hard to say that to people who also have children with autism who never had one vaccine. I am not “defending vaccines”, by the way, I am defending there is no proof of what causes autism as of today, and that includes the flu vaccine. People shouldn’t make important choices on lack of evidence or based on fear, which pretty much those “anti vaccine defenders” spread. I have never said once any where people should all get vaccines and in fact, I have often said it’s a personal family choice since I nor you know some one else’s medical history and that choice has been there for years (just too bad parents didn’t know it) yet that can not be said about other’s. I personally don’t care what any families personal choice is, although they should not be assaulted with bad info and personal opinion when making an important decision.
Those who don’t keep all doors open end up closing doors.

Let’s not mix autism rates with cause. Those autism rates were hardly counted in the 1980′s. They were not counted until IDEA added autism in the 1990′s and still today, that’s where the bulk of the rates come from which means once a child is out of that public school system, they’re no longer in the autism count, meaning the rates are even higher than reported today. ADHD was first documented in the early 1900′s, yet only until the 1970′s did it explode. So are we to assume there was little ADHD for 70 years? Or just when the schools started counting heads?

Sandy, did I say that all autism was caused by vaccines?

“I have never said once any where people should all get vaccines and in fact, I have often said it’s a personal family choice since I nor you know some one else’s medical history and that choice has been there for years (just too bad parents didn’t know it) yet that can not be said about other’s.”

That doesn’t stop the CDC and everyone else from enforcing them anyway. They don’t take into consideration family history or possible allergy. One size fits all. And, as we’re starting to see with cases like Hannah Poling, Alexander Krakow, and Bailey Banks (to name a few), this is a HUGE mistake. And you admonish the pro-safe vacciners for their choices on lack of evidence? What about the lack of evidence regarding the current vaccination schedule?

Sandy,
Maybe your doctor didn’t recommend a flu shot when you were pregnant, but may do.
From the CDC (You remember the CDC, part of the “mainstream” establishment) website http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/acip.htm
The groups recommended to receive the 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine include:

Pregnant women because they are at higher risk of complications and can potentially provide protection to infants who cannot be vaccinated;

All people from 6 months through 24 years of age
Children from 6 months through 18 years of age because cases of 2009 H1N1 influenza have been seen in children who are in close contact with each other in school and day care settings, which increases the likelihood of disease spread, and

Young adults 19 through 24 years of age because many cases of 2009 H1N1 influenza have been seen in these healthy young adults and they often live, work, and study in close proximity, and they are a frequently mobile population.

So, Mr. Wonderful, do you think because the CDC recommends it, everyone does it? You cant assume off that CDC recommendation of any vaccine who has had what, just like you couldn’t accurately assume what any of my doctors told me, and you also cant say generically “many doctors do”. Just how many pregnant wives have you had?? You can only base what a doctor told her, that would be ‘your’ experience and even then, you’re speaking for someone else since of course you weren’t the one pregnant. You also have no idea just who is going to get the H1N1 vaccine either, just like you cant tell me of who had the seasonal flu vaccine, how that relates to autism. You’re guessing.

If anyone doesn’t think there is thimerosal in the swine flu vaccine check
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/autism-politics/message/30068
It shows a vial of the “Pandemic Influenza Vaccine H1N1″.

Craig~ did I say vaccines didn’t cause autism? Funny you should mention Hannah Poling. She is a great example of a child being ill alot and ‘missing’ recommended vaccines, that’s why she had so many in one day. That family is a great example of picking and choosing when a child should get a vaccine and some doctor along the way must had agreed since she missed vaccines due to being ill. That is not an example of the CDC, but one bad doctor over-jabbing a child.

One size fits all also would apply to every single child getting autism from vaccines, or telling a parent the vaccine schedule ‘as is’ isn’t for all.

Mr. Wonderful~ yes, thimerosal is in the flu vaccines and it always has been however, for quite some years now there is the choice of thimerosal free. Most adults who do get any flu vaccine is going to have thimerosal in it, but you have yet to show that evidence that the body of an adult does not eliminate it from the body or that they are left wth autism. So what again is your point? If you don’t want to get the flu jab, by all means don’t get it.

Sandy, Since you asked I’ve only had one pregnant wife, the only wife and we have five children, the youngest was born in 1981.
And for the record we also have 11 grandchildren and 2 greatgrandkiddies and only our 32 year old has autism.
That should rule out genetics as a cause.

Interestingly, looking at that post entry made by non other than you, any other web site running that story doesn’t have that vile of flu vaccine. Did you put that there??

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/provider/preparing.htm
Single-dose syringes will be thimerosal-free, which will address concerns about this additive, especially regarding pediatric and pregnant vaccine recipients (inhaler sprayer vaccine products will also be thimerosal-free).”

Looks like some one is watching out for pregnant women and children. Now this new vaccine has yet to be linked to anything since of course it hasn’t even been released to the public yet so I ask you again, what does it have to do with autism since we already rules out the thimerosal?

My sister with diabetes diagnosed at birth was said to be genetic, due to family history. Out of 6 kids, she was the only one born with it in our family (my parents) does that make it not genetic since only one child has it?

On my mothers side (one of her sisters now dead and of my cousins and their kids) there are quite a few kids with autism of all ages (some adults now) yet none on my dad’s side. Does this tell me it’s genetic? No, since there is yet t be a blood test to confirm it.

And here’s another interesting thing. My brothers first born has a serious rare genetic disorder, mostly seen in marriages between 2nd cousins. The chances of him meeting a woman carrying this same gene is way up there with the moon. Both parents have to carry this same gene for this disorder to be in a child. The real intersting thing about this rare disorder is it has to do with procressing none other than proteins- you know, that GI issue? So who is to say I don’t carry that same gene, which I don’t know if I do or not, and that gene played a role in my child’s development? You ever had your children tested for chromosome defects? My kid had been. We have no idea which side this gene came from, my moms or dads side, and no one knew it was even there until this one child was born. Keeps your eyes open on the medical studies. This child was the youngest ever diagnosed as a new born and is now part of studies how to treat new borns in the future.

Mr. Wonderful, you need to pick a definition for “autism” and stick with it.

First you tell us that “autism” is defined in DSM-IV 299.00 (autistic disorder).

Then you tell us the CDC’s current estimated prevalence for autism is 1:150:

Several years ago (the CDC) said that the rate of autism was 1 in 150. That’s a huge increase from the 1 in 10,000 way back in the 1980s.

And naturally you repeat the Generation Rescue line that the autism rate in the early 1980s (GR uses 1983) was 1:10,000.

All three statements cannot be true if you are consistent in your definition of autism.

In the first instance you were precise and correct. Too bad you didn’t continue down that path.

In the second example you conflate 299.00 Autistic Disorder with the three most common PDDs. The CDC survey didn’t just look for autistic disorder. So by “autism” you meant “autism spectrum disorders”.

In the last example, you cite Jenny McCarthy’s phony statistic. There is no 1983 population study that shows an autism rate of 1:10,000. Best available evidence from that period puts the rate at 4-5:10,000, but only for DSM III 299.000 autistic disorder. Diagnostic 299.00 criteria was far more restrictive in DSM-III than it is today.

When real scientists have their beliefs challenged with credible, new evidence, they adjust those beliefs. Instead, you start with a conclusion (vaccines cause autism) and work backward, looking for evidence that supports your belief, and dismissing anything that challenges it. It’s the MO shared by creationists, 9/11 Truthers and Holocaust Deniers. That’s quite the company you keep.

So tell us Mr. Wonderful – how do you define “autism”?

“One size fits all also would apply to every single child getting autism from vaccines”

Please reread my previous comment. I didn’t say that all autism was caused by vaccines. It isn’t an all or nothing/black and white thing. Some children are genetically autistic, and some are regressive or iatrogenic.

Sandy ~ Did you read something that I never wrote? Where did I ever say that adults eliminate mercury from their bodies or that ADULTS developed autism from vaccines, or any other reason?
That would be really regressive autism.

I wasn’t repeating Generation Rescue’s figures. I was stating what I was told in 1984 or 85 by a lecturer from a major autism school here in Nu Joisy. At that point Jenny McCarty was about 11 years old and Generation Rescue was 20+ in the future.

I didn’t conflate 299.00 Autistic Disorder with the three most common PDDs. If you reread that, I said that 299.00 was classic Kanner Autism and 299.80 and 314.01 described the other disorders.

Mr. Wonderful~ you were the one who sent a link to a Yahoo group post, of which you posted, that contained a very large photo of a vile of H1N1 flu vaccines with the word thimerosal on it. That vile is intended for adults but of all the news feeds running that story, none of them have that photo which is on that Yahoo group. Of course you copied and pasted an article to a yahoo group without including a link, which is a violation of Yahoo TOS by the way and more so if you edited it.

Fact is, what you talk about in some Yahoo group is fine and I really don’t care, but overall I ask you again since you brought it here to this blog what does the H1N1 vaccine have to do with autism???

Craig, I didn’t say you said this or that, neither did I say I said this or that. It was just a fact, one size fits all goes both directions, and I put it in a different paragraph as well, so not to direct it at you or for you. I did however comment directly to you about the Poling case.

Sandy
What does the H1N1 vaccine have to do with autism???
Remember that subject of that post? “The CDC said the H1N1 vaccine doesn’t contain Thimerosal”
I think it goes to show that the “mainstream” doesn’t always tell us things correctly.

Okay Kiddies,
Enough of this. I’m gonna grab a cold one and watch the Yankees beat the Orioles, unless the game gets rained out.

I already gave you the link from the CDC stating otherwise. The real subject line of that article is “CDC leery of estimates about swine flu’s toll” so I’m not sure what kind of business you have going on in that Yahoo group but whatever You put in that subject line, the article you submitting to that group itself didn’t even contain the word thimerosal other than that photo! (which you included that photo, the AP didn’t) You may get away with that sort of info on Yahoo, but people do actually read the articles and not take at your face value.

I think this is a good example of hoe you, mr. Wonderful, doesn’t always tell us things correctly, then blames it on the CDC, and then have the nerve to address us as Kiddies?

Sandy, I think Mr. Wonderful is just saying he’s done for the night and ready to think about something else. I suspect you guys have covered all the bases possible on this issue… just my two cents, though.

Best,

Lisa

OBJECTIVES: This study was done to assess progress in hepatitis B vaccination of children from 1994 through 1997. METHODS: We used data from the National Immunization Survey (NIS), a random-digit-dialed telephone survey that includes a mail survey to verify vaccination providers’ records. The NIS is conducted in 78 geographic areas (50 states and 28 selected urban areas) in the United States. RESULTS: A total of 32,433 household interviews were completed in the 1997 NIS. An estimated 83.7% of children aged 19 to 35 months received 3 or more doses of hepatitis B vaccine. Coverage with 3 doses was greater (86.7%) among children in states that had day care entry requirements for hepatitis B vaccination than among children in states without such requirements (83.0%) and was greater among children from families with incomes at or above the poverty level (85.0%) than among children below the poverty level (80.6%). Hepatitis B vaccination of children increased from 1994 through 1996, from 41% to 84%, but coverage reached a constant level of 84% to 85% in 1996/97. CONCLUSION: Although substantial progress has been made in fully vaccinating children against hepatitis B, greater efforts are needed to ensure that all infants receive 3 doses of hepatitis B vaccine.”
Does the compliance rate of 84% in 1996 for hepb at birth coincide with the rise in autism? I would like to find a chart showing that birthyear. Another question I have, Was there an increase in autism at “birth” during those years, and not one in regressive autism?

Hard to say other than it doesn’t explain an explanation after 2002 autism diagnosis.

Why does it always have to be the vaccines? We can’t even say for sure that the true prevalence of any or all PDDs has risen as dramatically as Mr. Wonderful says it has.

I wasn’t repeating Generation Rescue’s figures. I was stating what I was told in 1984 or 85 by a lecturer from a major autism school here in Nu Joisy.

So 24 years ago, an apocryphal lecturer at an unnamed college said the rate of DSM 299.00 autism was 1:10,000, even though no peer-reviewed study had been published with that figure. And then, in 2006 or so, Jenny McCarthy channels that same unpublished study and repeats the 1:10,000 figure.

And furthermore, it is somehow instructive to compare the unpublished, 1983 figure for DSM-III 299.00 autism with today’s rate for all major PDDs.

There certainly is a lot of muddling going on and generally when good questions are brought up, something else is thrown in. Although the cause of autism is very important, it may be a long time coming so why not focus on todays and tomorow issues that we know many of us will face, like an IEP upheld. Or how about stopping insurance companies from deeming autism an educational disorder and sluffing off services solely to the school? Or more long term, if there ever is a cure, let’s say that cure isn’t fool proof for all or not covered by insurance or has side effects. Why not address and spread acceptance for those who will always have autism or choose not to opt fr a cure? The autism rates really prove nothing anyway, other than there’s more diagnosed today than yesterday and there still isn’t a medical blood test to confirm it. It’s odd and a shame on a topic of NAA that wasn’t only addressing vaccines, that it turns into nothing but vaccines. We talked about it yesterday and today yet tomorrow it’ll still be the same ole same.

Those other organizations who are at odds with the NAA aren’t doing anything to address the epidemic. They are still living down going along with Bettleheim and the “refrigerator mother” theory. Everything that has helped individuals with autism has come from outside the mainstream. If these ads aren’t your cup of tea, try watching your child suffer horrendous pain, year after year, and be blown off by everyone whose job it is to help him. That isn’t exactly my cup of tea. My child is now one of thousands who has recovered thanks to the medically-based interventions that the mainstream has tried to discredit. Try living in our shoes for just one day and see how these ads strike you then.

Lisa Jo said, “Their mission places the NAA at odds with most mainstream autism-related organizations and researchers.”

Sam’s mom responded, “REALLY? Are you going to be the one to tell AutismOne, UnLocking Autism, AutismLink, Autism Action Network, Talk About Curing Autism, Generation Rescue, SafeMinds, Age of Autism, Autism Research Institute, Thoughtful House, and an entire slew of other nationally run orgs and research institutions…?”

Lisa responded that Thoughtful House and Safe Minds “have taken quite a different point of view from the CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP, etc.”

Lisa, the CDC, FDA, NIH, AAP are not autism-related organizations. They are government agencies and a pediatricians’ group. Your initial comments about NAA made it seem like NAA is out of step with most autism organizations. The organizations listed by Sam’s mom have thousands of members. TACA, devoted to the biomedical approach to autism treatment, has grown exponentially – from serving 10 families in 2000 to 14,000 in 2008, with chapters in nine states.

Yes, the biomedical approach to autism is not mainstream among mainstream medicine and among the government agencies who have so much to lose by acknowledging an autism-vaccine link.

But this approach is becoming more and more mainstream in the autism community. Of course NAA does not speak for everyone connected with autism, but to try to discount NAA as fringe is not accurate.

Perhaps the most “mainstream” organization – in terms of prominence, fund raising, etc. – is Autism Speaks. AS has been moving more towards biomedical, with two anti-biomedical-anti-vaccine-research board members resigning in protest. And Katie Wright, daughter of the founders and mother of the boy who inspired it all, is a firm believer in vaccine injury and biomedical treatments.

So, yes, NAA is not in sync with our mainstream government agencies and medical organizations. But your original comment was that NAA is at odds with most mainstream autism-related organizations, which is not true. In fact, NAA is a part of the “Autism Collaboration”, a group of 11 autism organizations representing thousands of members.

I believe you mentioned the Autism Society of America (ASA) as one of the more “mainstream” autism organizations. The “Research and Programs” page of the ASA web site states “The Autism Society supports research that will help families living with autism. Today, 60 individuals will be diagnosed with autism, and their families have no clear path to treat the symptoms of this medical condition. For this reason, the Autism Society launched research initiatives to look into early diagnosis and early intervention, the environmental triggers of autism, environmental factors that exacerbate health conditions, and most importantly, a comprehensive, coordinated treatment guided research initiative.” This actually has a lot in common with NAA’s mission statement that you quoted.

If you don’t like NAA’s day of protest, fine. To each his own. But don’t try to marginalize NAA. There are thousands of people whose views are reflected by NAA’s views.

Thank you to all at NAA who are working your butts off on behalf of people with autism and their families.

For more on the Semmelweiss Reflex (mentioned by ANB) see http://www.ageofautism.com/2007/10/the-semmelweis-.html

When NAA learns to stop asking the government for anything and decides to tell the government what to do, they’ll be useful.

Roos Mama, I am confused by your comment.

First: so far as I am aware, none of the organizations out there — from the NIH to the NAA — have given Bettelheim a thought for decades. No one believes that bad parenting causes autism: period.

Second, there is nothing about autism as defined by the diagnostic criteria that would put a child in “horrendous pain.” I’m not sure what the pain is that you’re referring to, and perhaps your child was in pain as a result of a comorbid issue?

Autism itself is diagnosed as a result of behaviors and developmental delays; pain is not among them.

And yes, I have a child with autism and know many people on the autism spectrum. Some have painful conditions along with their autism (bad ear infections, or stomach issues, or sensory hypersensitivities; most don’t.

Lisa

Twyla, the NIH has set up a whole series of research and treatment centers dedicated entirely to autism. In addition, many autism research studies (including some of the largest) are funded by the NIH. No, they are not an “autism organization,” but their involvement with autism represents more money and more resources than any of the autism-only organizations out there.

Does that mean the NIH is always right? Of course not! But it does mean that they represent a good chunk of “mainstream thinking” on autism (and every other disorder) in the US.

The organizations you and others mention have a very specific agenda: the biomedical treatment of autism based on the theory that autism is caused by vaccines. They may represent thousands of families; I honestly don’t know the numbers (or how much crossover there is among membership).

They do not, however, represent “autism,” nor are they in the majority within the larger medical community relative to their perspective on how autism should be viewed or treated.

Being in the mainstream or majority doesn’t make a person or organization right or good or passionate or anything else (though they may be all of those things). All it means is that they are in the mainstream or majority. It also means that, for better or worse, they are in a position of power over money, policy, etc.

I thought that the NAA campaign was specifically focused on just that point — that parents involved with NAA and related organizations are unhappy with the way mainstream power and money are being used when it comes to autism.

Am I missing something?

Lisa

Roo’s comment is typical of the hyperbole and unfounded assumptions of the anti-vaccine movement. We are supposed to believe, for example, without good evidence, that autism is an epidemic.

But Roo is right on one point – Bettleheim’s spirit still haunts parents. You can feel the chill everytime a parent advocates for chelation instead of understanding, or HBOT over acceptance.

Sandy it may explain the 2003 diagnosis. The chart I found included diagnosed cases with ages betweein 6 and 17, I know it’s not the best, I couldn’t find the “best”. The years where the climb was most significant , seems to coincide with the hepb at birth kids. With 2002 as example representing birth year 1996 and age 6. Birth year 2004 would be the first thimerosal reduced year, given the shelf life of most, as these children are turning five , are they diagnosed?

I will continue to be a believer in synergy, not one thing is causing autism, yet all likely are a part of the vaccine program .

Lisa -
Yes, you are missing the main point of my comment.

Lisa says, “The organizations you and others mention have a very specific agenda: the biomedical treatment of autism based on the theory that autism is caused by vaccines.” These treatments are not just based on the “theory” that vaccines cause autism. They are based on the observation that these treatments help some people with autism, and on science regarding the immune system, digestion, oxidative stress, and chemical processes in the body such as methylation.

barbaraj~ No, I think we’ve talked already in the past about that shelf life on another thread, so here it is again. These are facts that cant be disputed, Kirby himself had to accept it. We already know the expiration date was I believe Nov. 2002 that all vaccines on any shelf did expire. You can easily find the public records of autism rates, and to say otherwise anyway that the rates are not increasing would be counter-productive to the NAA’s attempt, and mean there isn’t an epidemic at all.

Autism: Removing Thimerosal From Vaccines Did Not Reduce Autism Cases In California, Report Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080107181551.htm

Bad News, I’m back. That’s not the bad news. The bad news is that the Yankees lost last night.
Sandy, you said I included the photo and not the AP. Did you see the original AP article and see that the picture wasn’t there?
And if I added it to the article, where did I get the photo of the vial WITH Thimerosal?

Actually, many in the autism community do not even do the bio route or even see those issues as other’s do. It is based on theory. No one really knows why the GFCF diet works other than maybe severe allergies to those food items which in turn can cause cognitive delays just as untreated celiac would in young children/ infants/ toddlers, but hardly no parent tests their child for allergies or Celiac. When you are treating those GI issues or immune issues, that’s what you are treating which would be aside from autism just as I would treat my child’s acid reflux and hyper gag reflex aside from autism that of course has an effect on teeth. He has other things going on however I can name more typical kids who also have those same issues than I can of those I have personally met with autism. What some doctors seem to be doing is taking every medical issue a child with autism has and directly relating them to autism and there is no true evidence any co-morbid is higher in the population of those with autism and not the whole of the human population.
If it were more than a theory, it’d certainly make big news. If it really helped more than just a few, we’d all be running out the door doing exactly what you are with your child. Many have and found another dead end. The reason why it’s alternative (not mainstream) is because there isn’t enough studies to determine if there even is a benefit, why did that happen in the first place? And further more, why did it benefit that child with the same vaccine schedule but not those others? It is not helping the majority of the autism population. Most of anything out there is simply parent testimonials, and that is not science. I could try and convince everyone what I did with my child, parent testimonial, that you all should do the same and you’d get those same exact results. Now doesn’t that seem a far-fetched thing to say? Fact is, the human body does not all have the same exact biology, the same exact genes or exposures.

Finally, one does have to separate the co-morbid’s from the actual criteria of autism. many other things also mimic autism, like Celiac, which would account for cognitive and recovery.

Well welcome back Rick, I have to thank you for that link. I believe we have met before. As for that photo, I suppose the same place I found it when I search for something of it’s likes, and I didn’t find it on the AP or any other site which ran the same article. Odd that the article itself wasn’t even about Thimerosal to begin with to even include that photo. I’m sure the hope was no one would read past your titled post however rest assured, that H1N1 will come Thimerosal free for children and those who are pregnant, for those who even decide to get that jab. You still have not answered the question (even though I know the answer) what does the H1N1 or the season flu jab even have to do with autism?

Sandy from the fda page..
thimerosal as a preservative (some formulations of DTaP, Haemophilus influenzae b conjugate (Hib), and hepatitis B vaccines) had reached the end of their shelf life by January 2003.
I have read on other pages, April..
I would ,yes, have to compare birth year 2004 ..are the stats on these newly five year olds in?
Twyla, yes and the sides taken on this issue are not unlike the opposition received by Rachel Carson. The cancer numbers she projected were considered science fiction and yet , here we are, living that science.
Mr. Wonderful I live in Baltimore..what can I say..yeah!!

Sandy
.

I wasn’t repeating Generation Rescue’s figures. I was stating what I was told in 1984 or 85 by a lecturer from a major autism school here in Nu Joisy.

So 24 years ago, an apocryphal lecturer at an unnamed college said the rate of DSM 299.00 autism was 1:10,000, even though no peer-reviewed study had been published with that figure.
The rate I mentioned wasn’t from some unnamed college. I said “a major autism school”. To the best of my knowledge, there are no colleges that are designed specifically for students with autism. The facility I was referring to was Bancroft Neurohealth. http://www.bancroftneurohealth.org/
Then you said that there was “no peer-reviewed study had been published with that figure” at that time.
How do you know that to be true? Were you involved with the autism issue in 1984? Did you even know what autism was then, or was your first exposure to the term autism the movie “Rainman” in 1998?

I wasn’t the one who said much about your autism rate quotes. You seem a little confused this morning, go back and re-read who posted what.

barbaraj~ for starters, according to the FDA, the Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate (Hib), made by ActHIB(Sanofi Pasteur, SA) OmniHIB
(GlaxoSmithKline) never contained Thimerosal.

You can look at the birth year of 2004, and compare them to today and again, those autism rates have not dropped and if you’re suggesting they have (lets see the evidence of that) that is counter-productive to the NAA’s attempt of an epidemic, and means there isn’t an epidemic at all.

For the original picture of the dreaded H1N1 vaccine check the link below. That’s a yahoo page linked to AP on Aug 27 2009.

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/rids/20090827/i/r1477549205.jpg?x=400&y=307&q=85&sig=ro2TAGuWyOcrI9ZB_iQ.MA–

Sorry Sandy, you are right, it was ANB that posted that.

Sandy, I don’t “have the nerve to address us as Kiddies”, I retired last year and have children who are about the same age as most of the people posting here, so I thing of you guys as kids.

AND Lisa Jo,
” autism says:
Sandy, I think Mr. Wonderful is just saying he’s done for the night and ready to think about something else.”
Didn’t your parents or teachers ever tell you that it is impolite to refer to someone in the thrid party when they are in same room or same conversation?

Lisa Jo, I will try again. Initially you said that “Their mission places the NAA at odds with most mainstream autism-related organizations and researchers.” When challenged on this, you changed your statement to be that NAA is at odds with mainstream government agencies and mainstream medicine, which is actually a very different statement.

Yes, NIH has autism programs, but it is not an autism organization; it addresses many many health issues, and it has a vested interest in denying the vaccine-autism connection, as shown by the actions of Thomas Insell.

Your initial statement seemed aimed at marginalizing NAA, and it seems disingeneous to then say that what you meant by “autism-related organizations” is government agencies and mainstream medicine.

And you refered to ASA as being one of the mainstream autism organizations. See the ASA’s page on their “Treatment-Guided Research Initiative (TGRI)” at http://www.autism-society.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_tgri

This page includes a link to prominent Harvard researcher Dr. Martha Herbert’s article “Treatment-Guided Research” at
http://www.autism-society.org/site/DocServer/Pages_8-14_TGRI_.pdf?docID=10460

The photo doesn’t really matter Rick, but quite interesting considering what the article was about, which was
“Government health officials are urging people not to panic over estimates of 90,000 people dying from swine flu this fall. “Everything we’ve seen in the U.S. and everything we’ve seen around the world suggests we won’t see that kind of number if the virus doesn’t change,”

The only thing it said about vaccines had to do with preventing that predicted huge death toll. Nothing in there relates to this topic on this blog, or to autism at all and you have yet to provide how it does other than your Thimerosal comment which of course many doses will have it. For children and pregnant women who ‘decide’ to get the jab, it wont contain Thimerosal. H1N1 is only a muddle to autism.

BarbaraJ
“Sandy from the fda page..
thimerosal as a preservative (some formulations of DTaP, Haemophilus influenzae b conjugate (Hib), and hepatitis B vaccines) had reached the end of their shelf life by January 2003.”
Notice that the FDA page uses the term “thimerosal” and never mentions that thimerosal is mostly mercury. To be exact thimerosal is
sodium ethylmercurithiosalicylate (C9H9HgNaO2S).
Sounds like something really healthy doesn’t it? But for over 70 years the “mainstream” has said it was okay to inject into people.

Rick~ You’re assuming the ages here. My hubby retired after 30 + years at the Ford plant, does that determine age? I don’t consider you ‘old’ gramps but if you like I can address you as such. I didn’t like the comment, I considered it disrespectful more so due to the on-going topic, that’s my opinion.

“For children and pregnant women who ‘decide’ to get the jab, it wont contain Thimerosal.”
Only if these people know to ask for a non-thimerosal version. And only if their doctor has it in stock.
And, if they can make a thimerosal free version, why put it in the rest?

BarbarJ
“Mr. Wonderful I live in Baltimore..what can I say..yeah!!”

As I mentioned to the “Red Sox Nation” after Boston fially broke the curse of the Bambino, at least the Yankees never lost a World Series to the Mets.

Twyla, I think we’re talking past each other and not really connecting.

Here’s my point of view:

The NAA launched a media campaign which including very strongly-worded materials aimed toward major, powerful, mainstream US government agencies and related institutions. In them, the NAA asks “how much longer” must we wait for you to implement changes we feel are critical to our children’s welfare?

Having done this, the NAA is saying, in essence, “we are frustrated because the major, powerful, mainstream US government agencies and related institutions do not believe us. We are pushed aside and marginalized,and our children are not receiving the services we feel they need.”

In other words, the NAA is specifically saying “we are a marginalized and disempowered group, and we’re angry about the way we’re being treated.”

Perhaps I should have used a different terms than “autism-related organization” when referring to mainstream organizations that deal with autism, but maybe not.

To really get a feel for who is in the majority among those groups, I’d need to do a sort of census of autism-only groups to see how many are focused on vaccine/biomedical issues. I’d also need to look at how large their membership is, how much duplication there is in membership from group to group, and how large their budgets are. I’d then need to compare that information to those autism-only groups are NOT specifically focused on or in agreement with the biomed/vaccine causation theory.

I hope this makes more sense.

Lisa

So instead of spreading around a retitled article “The CDC said the H1N1 vaccine doesn’t contain Thimerosal, BUT..” why are you not spending as much effort to educate people to know it’s available? There’s alot of talk about this vaccine all over the nedia, it’s hard to say who wouldn’t hear about Thimerosal free or the flu mist. You’re assuming when you think doctors ‘might’ have it in stock. I suppose only mainstream doctors are the ones who wouldn’t have it on their shelves?

Thimerosal may or may not be harmful, have you noticed all the products sold with it in it? Do you know how many products in your house probbaly contains mercury? Can you show where Thimerosal in the rest of the jabs showed injury to those adults who had the jab? And if so, how does it relate to autism??

I don’t have time to respond to all the comments that have been posted, but I will say this:

1. The fact that the GFCF diet helps some people with autism is just that: a fact. The reasons why may be theories, but the effects of the GFCF diet have been amply identified, such as clearing brain fog, increasing langage and social skills, improving digestion, and reducing allergies/eczema. There is no way to know whether this diet will help except to try it. Many parents and people with autism have found that it helps. Some have found that it makes no difference. It may be necessary to remove soy as well, as the soy protein is quite similar to gluten and casein. Dr. Jaquelyn McCandless has treated thousands of people with autism and found that individuals on this diet had a much better chance of benefiting from biomedical treatments. Sometimes the diet is just the first step as there may be many other medical issues to be addressed.

The same can be said of other treatments such as B-12. It is a fact that these treatments have benefited some people with autism tremendously.

2. The fact that adverse vaccine reactions can cause autism is just that: a fact. Parents have witnessed it. There are too many similar reports to be coincidental. Scientific studies showing various kinds of immune system dysregulation in people with autism are consistent with over-vaccination causing inflammation of the brain, nervous system, and digestive system. Scientific studies document the toxic effects of vaccine ingredients such as mercury and aluminum. Vaccine court rulings and concessions in cases such as Bailey Banks and Hannah Poling document pathways of vaccine injury causing inflammation of the brain and autistic behaviors. (And autism is defined by behaviors.)

3. As Dr. Bernadine Healy has said so eloquently, our government has turned away from doing the research needed to understand vaccine injuries, including a vax/unvaxed study and study of the injured children.
See http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/12/cbsnews_investigates/main4086809.shtml
“The branch of the government that handles vaccine court told CBS News: ‘Some children who have been compensated for vaccine injuries…may ultimately end up with autism or autistic symptoms, but we do not track cases on this basis.’” !!!!!

In the course of our daily lives, we encounter many facts that have not been proven in large epidemiological peer reviewed scientific studies published in journals. Since when have we given scientists so much power that our views are only to be shaped by them?

Webster’s definition of the word “fact”:
- “the quality of being actual: actuality”
- “something that has actual existence”
- “an actual occurrence: event”
- “a piece of information presented as having objective reality”

Nowhere in that definition are the words: “something that has been blessed by mainstream medicine and confirmed in peer reviewed published scientific articles”. Facts are proven in trials and published in newspapers and history books. All of these facts are subject to challenge by people who have contradictory evidence. But nowhere except in relation to autism and vaccines are we told that all inforation not published in peer reviewed journals (nor tested by epidemiology) is not factal and only “anecdotal” and therefore should be ignored and not acted upon.

Sandy, It is quite possible we have met before. My wife, son and I have to most of the autism hearings and rallies in DC.
We have been involved in autism, special education and restraint and seclusion issues for many years.
Massachusetts, Florida, Wyoming or someplace in between?

The very same things that you are complaining about in the vaccines is found in our air and food. What I don’t understand is why isn’t anyone fighting to have these things removed. They enter the body and have a damaging effect then that in the shots. How do we know that preservatives in the food and the contamination in our air has more of an impact on the rise of rates then the focus of vaccines?

Then to answer the question is that it they make thimerosal free to have people quit their complaining and give them a choice. I have had friends get the thimerosal free and isn’t it funny that their child still has autism….HMMMM I have had a friend who didn’t get their child vaccinated and hmmmm…that child has autism.

Actually, there is no fact out there that states for sure what causes autism. if there was, there would be no debates and it’d be al of the news feeds. The use of ‘can’ and ‘does’ are 2 different meanings as well. One really cannot use the word ‘can’ when so far no one yet can use the word ‘does’. It’s a manipulating of words to prove something is true.

And again, lets not bring up the Poling case. That child was ill to begin with prior to vaccines, she missed vaccines due to being ill and had a genetic factor that played a role. She was over-jabbed and any child who has that many vaccines in one day no one in their right mind would argue vaccine injury- caused my the doctor who injected her. As for the Bates case, you might want to look up ADEM. People can also manipulate those 2 cases to fit into any slot they want, but most kids with autism do not have ADEM, most do not get over-jabbed with vaccines and have that same genetic disorder.

Amen to that Twyla. No one has every done a “peer review” of Isaac Newton’s law of gravity, but it is a fact.
Just ask Wile E. Coyote.

Then you said that there was “no peer-reviewed study had been published with that figure” at that time.

How do you know that to be true? Were you involved with the autism issue in 1984? Did you even know what autism was then, or was your first exposure to the term autism the movie “Rainman” in 1998 (sic)?

I know because peer-reviewed studies are easily accessed through PubMed, and because I have studied and written on autism epidemiology studies. Mr. Wonderful, you’re the one that made the claim, not me. All you have to do is find one epi study from 1983 that shows a DSM-III 299.00 rate of 1:10,000 and I will stand corrected.

You can start with Fombonne’s meta-analysis of 43 population studies published since 1966.

Epidemiology of pervasive developmental disorders.

Department of Psychiatry, Montreal Children’s Hospital of the McGill University Health Centre, Montreal, Quebec, H3Z 1P2, Canada.

This article reviews the results of 43 studies published since 1966 that provided estimates for the prevalence of Pervasive Developmental Disorders, including Autistic Disorder, Asperger Disorder, Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified, and Childhood Disintegrative Disorder. The prevalence of autistic disorder has increased in recent surveys and current estimates of prevalence are around 20/10,000 whereas the prevalence for PDD-NOS is around 30/10,000 in recent surveys. Prevalence is much lower than that for Autistic Disorder and Childhood Disintegrative Disorder is a very rare disorder with a prevalence of about 2/100,000. Combined all together, recent studies that have examined the whole spectrum of PDDs have consistently provided estimates in the 60-70/10,000 range, making PDD one of the most frequent childhood neurodevelopmental disorders. The meaning of the increase in prevalence in recent decades is reviewed. There is evidence that the broadening of the concept, the expansion of diagnostic criteria, the development of services, and improved awareness of the condition have played a major role in explaining this increase, although it cannot be ruled out that other factors might have also contributed to that trend.

The only study of the 43 that comes close to 1:10,000 is Treffert (1970), who found 0.7/10,000. It was based only on information from computer print-outs, and examined the prevalence in Wisconsin among children, aged 3 through 12, seen by psychiatric or mental retardation agencies in the years 1962-67 and diagnosed as having ‘Childhood schizophrenia’. He reported a total age-specific prevalence of 3.1 per 10,000 of whom 0.7 were considered to be “classically autistic without any known organic cause.”

You can also read Dr. Lorna Wing’s paper:

http://www.mugsy.org/wing.htm

She sets clear criteria for including studies in her review and 16 studies that made the grade, from 1966 to 1991 gave prevalence rates that varied from 3.3 to 15.5 in 10,000.

Wing wrote about, but excluded three obscure Japanese studies from 1971 that report prevalence between 0.9-5.0:10,000. They are
Tanino; Haga and Miyamoto;l and Makai.

McCarthy (1984) found 4.3:10,000 in Ireland, but the study’s methodology is easily criticized – “the initial subject selection was made by asking child psychiatrists and the staff of relevant institutions for the names of children diagnosed as autistic.” (Wing)

Let’s suppose that there was a study which shows a prevalence of 1:10,000 in 1983. How is it valid to compare that rate, which only applies to autistic disorder, to today’s rate of 1:150 which applies to the spectrum of disorders? That’s the important question, and it’s one that you can’t answer. Nobody can. It’s like comparing the population of rabbits in 1983 to the population of rodents today, and concluding that there are way more rabbits.

Nobody can say for sure that the true prevalence of any or all PDDs has risen over the past 25 years. But one thing is certain – Generation Rescue’s numbers, which you just quoted verbatim, have no empirical support.

I was in Washington, DC to observe and report on Typhoid Jenny’s Green Vaccine Rally.

Funny thing: Isaac Newton is believed to be on the spectrum. I wonder if he was vaccine injured too?

Twyla, thank you for stating my point so succinctly. It doesn’t surprise me that those who choose to accept the governmental run agencies canned statements as fact and gospel would not understand the difference.

Autism News Beat, your statement about 9.9.09 was not only ill-mannered and ignorant but also fictitious and inaccurate. Interesting how when you are at a loss for a valid argument you improvise with a completely misconstrued, blatantly false statement. I see you haven’t changed. The campaign was and still is 09.09.09. Do your homework. It has nothing to do with the German word for no, Nein. It has to do with marking a time and place in history for whence we, as a collective voice, stated quite clearly that we aren’t going to take it anymore. Those who disagreed with the terminology or ideals needed not participate. No big deal. It did end up being a very powerful campaign however, as 167,744 messages were sent and we are far from done!

If anyone is in denial here, it is those of you who have missed the boat that the majority of autism diagnosis are the result of neurological damage caused by outside factors and insults, one of which is vaccines. Don’t kid yourselves. Don’t want to heal your own children or yourself? That’s your right, but please stop trying to stand in the way of those of who do, can and are healing, helping and improving our own children. I am hopeful my child will one day be an independent adult who is able to maintain a living, raise a family of his own and enjoy a full life. If that is not possible, so be it. At least I will have the comfort of knowing I did everything humanly possible for him. Isn’t that what the vast majority of responsible parents do for their child, disabled or otherwise?

And yes, HF and LF have always been a factor in these discussions. I didn’t create that reality; it has been a factor since long before I came onto the scene. And yes, professionals of all kinds who work with our kids use the terminology. There does need to be a way to decipher an individuals’ ability when addressing a spectrum disorder. It is often used in conjunction with current and/or newer autism diagnosis. Anymore it is common place. I am not the one who makes the rules, but I do acknowledge actuality.

Argue, fight and discuss all you want. As for me, I am moving onward and upward, with or without you. I can’t influence the future or outcome of your loved one with autism, but I most certainly can my own. I wish you all the best.

Momof3 ~ you are correct in your statement. Believed to have been and was are not the same thing. The world was once believed to have been flat, too. Galileo was very nearly hung for believing that the Earth revolves around the sun rather than the sun revolving around a stationary Earth. And….cigarettes didn’t cause lung cancer. All funny things; yes?

That’s not to say that some cases of autism aren’t purely genetic. Wouldn’t it be nice to get to a time and place where we are able to determine the differences?

“majority of autism diagnosis are the result of neurological damage caused by outside factors and insults, one of which is vaccines.” this of course has not been found to be true, regardless of the Government or otherwise. Although it’s not popular belief, not everyone is brain washed by the Government but at the same time, they are also not brain washed by organizations either. Each personas intelligence level to know the difference might start by being less offensive towards others. The only thing we know for sure is the resent 10 to 15 percent that is genetic. It is also offensive to assume my child or any one else’s child needs to be healed according to your standards. You are doing what you think is right for your child and can not at all speak for the majority of anyone.

I am the one who questioned the date, and yes, some PR person should have looked into the symbolic meaning prior and gone with another date.

HF and LF does matter only when you assume those of one child with autism has no concern for the other child with autism. That is what ‘you’ said. That also was offensive for many reasons, and again separates the autism community by level of autism. Doctors do not use that term, either. Mainly schools do when they’re about to deny your child a service. The term is a very inaccurate term to describe a person with autism and quite frankly, define each so we all know what you consider HF as opposed to LF.

Finally, there is a reason for this ever on going debate. If any of us had all those answer’s, we wouldn’t be here.

To accept something as “gospel” is to accept something uncritically and without question. For example, to accept that the autism rate in 1983 was 1:10,000, despite the absence of data to back up the claim. Or to believe that bio-medical quackery “recovers” children, without as much as an agreed-upon, working definition of “recovery”, let alone a single case in the medical literature of a child who went from being autistic to neurotypical, or a plausible mechanism for how HBOT cures autism.

Now contrast that to the 30 or more studies that have looked for, but failed to find, an association between vaccines and autism. Every one of those studies was vetted and revised prior to publication. And then, once the data were made public, the studies were examined and critiqued by other scientists, who were looking for something to pick apart and question. That’s how the system works. Take anyone of the 30 epi studies in question and read the comments of other scientists. No study is perfect – every one has its flaws. And when scientists have at each others’ work they sniff out and expose those flaws.

That doesn’t sound like “taking something as gospel” to me.

Even when you are right, it’s for the wrong reason. Your statement that the majority of autism diagnoses are the result of an environmental factors is totally plausible. But it’s also been known for decades that genes interact with environment, and the AAP stated in 2007 that:

“…the expression of the autism gene(s) may be influenced by environmental factors. Although currently under investigation, these factors may represent a “second-hit” phenomenon that primarily occurs during fetal brain development. That is, environmental factors may modulate already existing genetic factors responsible for the manifestation of [autism] in individual children.

But instead of acknowledging that the “two hit hypothesis” has been around since 1971, the NAA tells its credulous members that the AAP has finally been forced to admit that environment+genes= disease. And you and your fellow Warrior Mothers believe it, without question or reservation! That’s the very definition of taking something as gospel.

Here’s a topic for Lisa’s next column – how exactly do the unquestioned assumptions of the anti-vaccine movement help children with autism? Kids need parents who can think for themselves, and take initiative without waiting for marching orders from fringe anti-vaccine groups like the NAA and Generation Rescue. Being skeptical is fine, but what you’re preaching is selective skepticism, which is not the same thing. If you want to question the findings of the mainstream medical community, that’s fine. But we owe it to our children to turn that skepticism to both side of the debate. When someone says there is no empirical support for an autism epidemic, don’t just accuse that person of being a pharma shill, or declare yourself too busy to present alternative evidence. Your shtick is really old, and couldn’t be more transparent.

We’ve always known that many vaccines were neurotoxic, why is there such a denial now? Is it because there’s no longer one damaged in ten thousand.. we don’t want to admit that when we add to the risk (vaccines)… we add to the casualties. This is the fact and we need to fix it.

Sams mom,

First of all I never gave my opinion as to what the cause is!! Just asking questions as everyone else is. Also there is a no difference HF or not. If the belief of someone opinion of cause, it would include all of ASD and functioning levels. My son isn’t HF Wouldn’t it be nice if we had the answers to the world, although some think they do??? If one likes to slam due to functioning levels of our kids in regards to an opinion, its not fair to assume when one never state what levels they are.

barbaraj

When speaking of neurotoxic ,as I have posted in the past those very toxins are in the food and air we breath.

The world was once believed to have been flat, too.

That’s because it looked flat. And it was assumed that the anecdotes and observations of millions of people couldn’t be wrong. When a ship sailed and never came back, it could only be for one reason – it fell off the earth! When the ancient Greeks figured out the world was round, it was through reason and logic, not letter writing campaigns and vapid celebrity endorsements.

Galileo was very nearly hung (sic) for believing that the Earth revolves around the sun rather than the sun revolving around a stationary Earth.

Galileo’s enemies refused to look at the empirical evidence. They too became indignant when asked to look through a telescope, or do the math.

And….cigarettes didn’t cause lung cancer.

Cigarettes were first mass-marketed in the US during World War I. Most cancers take years, if not decades to appear. So no medical science didn’t recognize that cigarettes cause cancer the day after Lucky Strikes hit the shelves. But if you took the time to read about the subject, instead of taking anecdotes as gospel, you would know that mainstream science understood the relationship between cigarettes and lung cancer by the early 1950s, largely through data collected in large epidemiological studies.

Actually, many has always known vaccines carried side effects, and the denial is ever knowing that to begin with and then all of a sudden acting surprised.
What no one has proven yet is the causes to autism, vaccines or otherwise and that one size fits all goes both directions.

momof3~ that is true and we already determined that breathing anything in is far more a risk than injection be it a virus or pollutants from factories and vehicles, the local trash dump or the water we drink. It’s also far more a risk since vaccines a scheduled option where as the air you breathe is is certainly a requirement to life. You bring up some very good questions by the way.

momof3~ that is true and we already determined that breathing anything in is far more a risk than injection be it a virus or pollutants from factories and vehicles, the local trash dump or the water we drink. It’s also far more a risk since vaccines a scheduled option where as the air you breathe is certainly a requirement to life. You bring up some very good questions by the way.

Momof3..unless science has changed, the most dangerous route for absorption of pesticides/chemicals was the genitals of boys, a rate considered as dangerous as directly injecting the poison into the body. My numbers may be off a hair, or time may have changed them but I recall the absorption rate on the skin of the forearm as “1″ and the genitals as about “12″, which means the genitals absorb 12 times more poisonous substance than the forearm. “as dangerous as” injecting…suggesting the most dangerous method of absorption is direct injection …I remember something about cuts and abraded skin as well..there is no denying that injecting poisons is far more dangerous than living next to a toxic dump.. I won’t deny the possibility that an occasional case of autism may be attributed to a baby boy sitting on a newly sprayed golf course..but this kind of exposure would be rare, vaccines are not.

barbaraj

Interesting enough, air we breath that has toxins does effect just as injections in the body.
Environmental pollution had been a fact of life for many centuries but it became a real problem since the start of the industrial revolution. Not only boys have autism girls do as well!! Pregnant women that live in commercial areas have higher birth defects as well as Nero problems in their children.

Potential Environmental Chemical Injuries

While it would be impossible to list all the potential injuries that can be caused by various chemical agents, the following list will serve to be illustrative of those conditions, that when coupled with appropriate exposure, could be caused by chemical contamination. They include:

Various forms of cancer (lung, bladder, brain, kidney,
Leukemia, lymphoma, skin cancer)
Various forms of learning disability (ADD, ADHD, LD)
Estrogenic effects (effects on the fetus when the mother is exposed before or during pregnancy)
Respiratory effects (breathing difficulties, allergies and other similar conditions)
Gastrointestinal effects (stomach conditions)
Cardiovascular effects (heart problems)
Hepatic effects (various liver conditions)
Renal effects (various kidney effects including blood in the urine and other kidney problems)
Neurological effects (various nervous system disorders, including reflex malfunction and headaches)

Well, the skin is an organ that breathes, just as he lungs inhale air to breathe. Depends on the substance as well. Touching tobacco is hardly dangerous but inhaling it might be. Lead is not dangerous to the skin, but it is deadly if ingested. So as to the suggestion of the most dangerous method of absorption is direct injection is not always a true statement. The most dangerous route for a boy being the genitals would not be true if they swallowed lead. Do you happen to know what is the most dangerous for girls or is the focus onlt boys? The most dangerous mercury compound, dimethylmercury, is so toxic that even a few microliters spilled on the skin, or even a latex glove, can cause death.
there are 3 categories of mercury as well. Symptoms typically include sensory impairment (vision, hearing, speech), disturbed sensation and a lack of coordination. The type and degree of symptoms exhibited depend upon the individual toxin, the dose, and the method and duration of exposure. Toxic effects include damage to the brain, kidney, and lungs. Mercury poisoning can result in several diseases, including acrodynia (pink disease), Hunter-Russell syndrome, and Minamata disease.
It’s odd that few of those diseases and to kidneys and lungs are often not recorded of those with autism.

It’s also notable that the symptoms of mercury poisoning are not the same as the symptoms of autism.

Direct injection is the worst route of exposure with any poison. I’m not certain the effects can be compared with eating fish , the use of tooth powders , or being a mad hatter.
I have a positive outlook tonight, my nephew no longer would be picked out of a crowd as autistic, he spoke about his new work study today, he looked great, he’s not the child anymore that parents would stop and move their children away from. He was huge, tiny parents , tiny siblings, he grew very tall and very fat, he recently lost sixty pounds, I’m questioning what happened….did losing the weight perhaps rid him of some mercury build up? He looks very acceptable, not the average teen at the mall, but within normal. ..really within normal!! This was a conversation!! Not an in depth one, but it went like this, How is your new job? “I like it”, do you have friends in you classes,” yes, there are a lot of kids”, Have you made friends, “yes, everyone is nice and we get to go back to the college on fridays but just audit the classes for now” Turn back five years, he would have held his hands on his ears, and growled at me. Everyone said he should have been institutionalized, and here he is a wonderful young man!! I know he was treated for candida, and was given b12, but that was probably six years ago. He holds onto a fear of crowds, hates them, but my sis is wondering if that’s not ingrained and perhaps now will change. He has been off all psyche drugs for four years. I’m sorry I’m rambling, I am just so pleasantly shocked. I just got off the phone, my sis said, it’s like he woke up this summer. We talked about any and all possibilities , there was nothing different,other than losing the weight which sent him to the gastro doc who saw nothing on the colonoscopy that indicated anything serious. Raging or stabilizing hormones? I have no idea?

For instant death, maybe injection is however you can just as easily be harmed from any form of exposure, depending on what that substance is. For instance lead. It’s just as damaging ingested, however holding it, it’s not a poison at all. If you’re trying to say vaccines as an injection is dangerous, how then do you explain the zillions it wasn’t a poison to?

Last I knew, mercury doesn’t store in the body for years without showing up on a test, and if it’s in the body at all only chelation removes it, not weight loss. If heavy metals were in the body for an extended length of time, the neuro damage would be permanent. You can see evidence of this on any crime show where the person was poisoned by the spouse. It’s also a shame appearances place a part in acceptance to be ‘normal’. Many who are over weight cant help that they are.

All kids, and those with autism too, progress and they progress at their own rate and not that of the people around them. It’s great your nephew is progressing.

Thank you Sandy, that leaves six more diagnosed and a few ..hmmm’s…in the family that we will see grow up. The guy at the store, he’s thirty, a cashier, he follows every rule , he speaks while checking out, that’s one pound of blue ribbon bread america’s best since 1936, one pack of soda ..diet pepsi no caffiene..eggs, one dozen egglands best omega three, pants slipping pull them up. I always thought that this would be stevie at some point..functioning..but he seems better than functioning to me. I’m not suggesting there is a miracle, however much it looks like one, remember I have two friends with autistic children that are institutionalized that were born in 1982 and 1983 who have never improved and one whose son is non verbal on a feeding tube at age eight and I always thought this kid would never come around either. This isn’t through autistic memeberships these are all people I’ve known most of my life.
I don’t know Sandy, I’m dumbfounded by this tonight, I wonder if perhaps he was somewhat better but it took him awhile to shed the behaviors? I’m guessing that this isn’t unusual, that some drop their diagnosis? Although I’m sure he’s still within the diagnosis just not buried in it.I’m way off topic..sorry.

I’ve personally met a mom whose son never talked until he was 14. One day at that age, he started talking as he always has. I have also met parents who decided residential care was the best for their child and for them, maybe it was. Their children did seem to thrive in that setting.
Some kids, like maybe mine, needs to feel being in his skin is acceptable and that not every single part of him is considered needing to be altered.

To BarbarJ
I know the answer: There is evidence pointing to autism and mitochondria disorder. Two pathways of energy 1) carbohydrates turned into glucose 2) fats turned into ketones.

The first path way is harmed in some way and autistic are having trouble breaking up the long chains of carbohydrates and turning them into glucose. As long as there are carbohydrates the second pathway of energy will not work.There must be no carbohydrates in order for this fat pathway to run.
This fat pathway kicks in during starvation. This pathway also kicks on the Atkins Diet or the low glycemic diet.

Did you know that untill the early 1900′s the only cure of epileptics was starvation. Did you know that it really did work in 20 percent of the cases. In the 1930′s while working on a diet for diabetics (another group that can not use the carbohydrate pathway of energy very well) they discovered the ketogenic diet (heavy cream, bacon, stuff like that) and it could cure 39 percent of the epileptic patients.
By the way many of the children with autsim also have epilepsy.
The Ketogenic diet only lasted two years and afterwards the cure was maintained even off the diet. So perhaps the glucose pathway of energy corrects itself some times!

momof3 says:
“Funny thing: Isaac Newton is believed to be on the spectrum. I wonder if he was vaccine injured too?”

The same has been said about Einstein, Edison, Mozart, Henry Ford and others. Since none of these people were ever given an evaluation we will never really know, will we? These stories are usually told by Aspies and really HFAs to put themselves on a level with these people.
Now if I thought for a second that my son, my neighbor’s granddaughter and most of the people I know of with autism would be the next Isaac Newton, Thomas Edison or Albert Einstein I wouldn’t think there was a problem with autism.

Mr. Wonderful et al, don’t be so sure that Einstein, Mozart etc. would have looked “normal” or “okay” to most people. My guess is that they, along with many many others, looked (and look) very odd indeed.

My son, Tom, is a good clarinet player — as a result, he’s accepted as part of the jazz ensemble. He still looks like person with what we now call an autism spectrum disorder. But since he can play clarinet, no one in the band really cares.

I’m thinking the same may have been (and is) true of folks like Mozart (odd guy, but great musician), Einstein (very different, but a hell of a mathematician), etc.

People are often forgiven their quirks when they can do something that others value…

Lisa

ANB
“When a ship sailed and never came back, it could only be for one reason – it fell off the earth!”
How do you know it didn’t fall off? Were you there to see that it didn’t?

Thank you Needa, that is amazing information. Losing that 60 lbs for whatever reason , over one summer, could be considered “starving”. Very interesting in another respect, he used to shake so badly when hungry when he was little, everyone used to say, he must have low blood sugar.

Mitochondrial cytopathies actually include more than 40 different identified diseases that have different genetic features, and Barbaraj’s sister could have him tested for it as well as other children she may have. I believe it’s passed through the mother to children. Now that they are studying this genetic disorder more, they may find it’s more prevalent than otherwise thought and it may or may not factor into processing environmental’s including vaccines, leading to a pretest prior to vaccines or other exposures like RX’s.

That’s just it, Rick, when a doctor evaluates a person, they are determining the diagnosis on their own interpretation of behaviors, and many doctors interpretation can vary from one doctor to another. It really is a diagnosis of speculation, observation so in fact we can look at past people in history and come to that same conclusion that a doctor came up with for our own kids. The fact is, most every human being does have some autism trait, the difference is the severity and how it impacted their functioning ability and since all with autism are individuals, one can not rule out those past people of history.

ANB
Since you mentioned smoking and cancer, the first time the connection between the two was written up in the JAMA was in 1947. JAMA didn’t stop running cigarette ads until 11 years later. $$$$
The government has required some warnings in ads and on individual packs since 1965, but you can still buy cigarettes today. $$$$$
Yeah, the “mainstream” always has our best interests at heart.

Mr. Wonderful

Air pollution’s have dated back as far back as the 1200′s. In the mid-1600′s the problem of smog and air pollution was was so bad that writer John Evelyn noticed and wrote to King Charles II. Back in the Middle Ages the use of coal in cities such as London was beginning to accelerate. The problems of poor urban air quality even as early as the end of the 16th century are well documented.

As I said the very same things that you are complaining about are the same things that are found in the air and food.

Point: There can be many causes to autism!!

Lisa,

Lets not forget about Thomas Jefferson!!

Lisa,
Einstein wasn’t a mathematician. He was a physicist, and a theoretical physicist at that.
In fact he was actually a very poor mathematician.

Albert Einstein was a theoretical physicist. Although Einstein had early speech difficulties, he was a top student in elementary school. As he grew, Einstein built models and mechanical devices for fun and began to show a talent for mathematics. so really, both you and Lisa are correct.

Written by Albert Einstein himself:

“My passionate sense of social justice and social responsibility has always contrasted oddly with my pronounced lack of need for direct contact with other human beings and human communities. I am truly a ‘lone traveler’ and have never belonged to my country, my home, my friends, or even my immediate family, with my whole heart; in the face of all these ties, I have never lost a sense of distance and a need for solitude…”

Needa I believe you are on to something, our family has many with mcs before autism became an issue, and many including myself that react badly to anesthetics. We all get fevers of 105 with otherwise minor illnesses and drop dead weak and feverish around pesticides. What crossed the line , something in vaccines and it’s new or too much, autism is far worse than chemical sensitivity. The only thing that I don’t understand is that this child was diagnosed at Kennedy Krieger, would they have missed mitochondrial disease? I trust no one anymore, am almost at the conspiracy belief level, could an institution as respected as this, hide numbers to protect the vaccination program?

I would not judge too quickly about conspiracy/ vaccines and mitochondrial disease. The mothers who pass it onto their children never knew they had it, nor is genetic testing cheap and without good cause, insurance companies are less apt to cover that spendy thing and most wouldn’t be able to afford that test. For many with mitochondrial disease, it is dormant and signs never present. There is no protection in this of vaccines, considering there is 40 different identified diseases related to it. You’re assume science is so good they’d actually know which of the 40 would conflict with which if any or may be all vaccines.
This is the blame game. Assuming some one had to know something and with purpose and intent, concealed it. Human nature is the need for answers, and when answers are not there, theories pop up. If that was the case, the Poling case would have had a much different outcome. Even still, this would be a genetic factor and vaccines wouldn’t be the only concern.

but..could we instill a non genetic mitochondrial disease by the use of such things as weed killers? I remember, again I’m going back to studies from years ago, that simple chlorophenoxy pesticides disrupted the mitochodrial energy adp to atp. I wish now that I would have absorbed more than needed to pass a test. I guess what I’m suggesting is again a synergistic cause for autism, an exposed child to something as simple as weed killer with temporarily disrupted energy gets a shot and doesn’t necessarily have a genetic mitochondrial disease yet the outcome would be the same. I can’t go any farther into this because I don’t know if this is possible, it seems logical to me, but I really don’t know.

What I’m suggesting ,is there a non genetic aquired mitochondrial disease that has been promoted by environmental poisonings setting more and more chldren up for vaccine damage. While genetic mitochondrial disease is recognizable perhaps aquired disease is not. While Kawasaki for example has been linked to several vaccines, currently to rototeq, in the past it has been connected to the use of pesticides and the aerosolization of pesticides during the carpet shampooing process.

I’m not sure if this is an explanation, found this on “chest”

Recognition of mitochondrial diseases requires an understanding of their common signs and symptoms as well as a basic understanding of mitochondrial biochemistry and genetics. The diseases are not always severe or life-threatening, and multiple organ systems do not need to be obviously involved. Skeletal muscle, the retina, or the pancreas may be the only organs affected. Diseases may present in the early and later years of life. DNA mutations with associated defects in mitochondrial function can be inherited with maternal, autosomal-dominant, or autosomal-recessive patterns, can occur spontaneously, or can be acquired as a result of environmental exposure or drug exposure. These mutations may be transient or persistent, or even may accumulate in the mitochondrial genome over a lifetime.

It does seem as though there is such a thing as acquired mitochondrial disease..

Mitochondria get damaged all the time, but there is a process that puts damaged and worn-out mitochondria in lysosomes (for digestion). Mitochondria have a unique ability to reproduce independently of the cell.

If a child’s mitochondria were damaged by some “toxin”, there would be three possible outcomes:

[1] The child experiences a mild-to-moderate mitochondrial insufficiency that lasts until the surviving mitochondria can replace the damaged/dead ones. There is no lasting damage.

[2] The child has a transient mitochondrial insufficiency but suffers long-term or permanent injury as a result of this period of mitochondrial insufficiency.

[3] The child suffers a mitochondrial insufficiency that is so severe he/she dies.

The second outcome could be confused with autism (or even diagnosed as autism), but there would be no lasting effect on the mitochondria, because mitochondria reproduce independently of the cell. This is why it’s certain that Hannah Poling’s mitochondrial disorder was inherited, and not somehow caused by vaccines.

Testing mitochondrial function in the second example would reveal no lasting damage because the mitochondrial DNA (both in the mitochrondria and in the nucleus) was not altered.

Also, in the second example, there would also be damage to the heart and liver – the brain would not be the only damaged organ.

If one argues that these “toxins” damaged either the mitochondrial DNA or the nuclear DNA that codes for mitochondrial RNAs, one would have to explain why the damage was so precisely targeted. What “toxin” selectively damages the same stretch of DNA in all or most cells?

Lisa Jo said:
“I think the vaccine program is ‘golden calf-like’ for the excellent reason that it prevents catastrophic public health disasters such as those experienced during the polio epidemics. IMHO, the possibility of re-entering a period during which we are at risk of polio, diphtheria, tetanus, etc. is not something to consider lightly: in fact, it’s terrifying.
“The problem, of course, is that there is a ‘don’t touch’ attitude toward vaccines that engenders suspicion — rightly or wrongly.”

The larger problem is that some children are being seriously injured by today’s vaccine program.

And, the program is being too influenced by financial interests. Pharma companies have been in trouble recently for suppressing data showing harmful side effects of prescriptions and pushing use of prescription drugs for uses not approved. They exert consideral financial influence in political, academic, and medical arenas. They push for more and more vaccines.

I’m all in favor of a few vaccines for serious prevalant illnesses. But there needs to be better research on:
- adverse reactions – for the sake of both prevention and treatment – instead of sweeping problems under the rug
- safety of vaccine ingredients such as aluminum
- cumulative effect of so many vaccines
- safety of multiple vaccines given at once.

These days the risks of diseases are exagerated and the risks of vaccines are denied. Vaccine reactions are summarily dismissed as “coincidental”. There is warped weighing of the risks and benefits of vaccines.

For example, how many infants need the hepatitis B vaccine on the day of birth? Hepatitis B is spread via exchange of body fluids such as by sharing needles or having sex. This vaccine has no benefit to a baby unless the baby’s mother is a Hep B carrier. And the potential risk to a newborn is unknown, especially since the baby’s health status is as yet unknown.

So, it is not a matter of all-or-none. It’s not enough to say, “But polio is dangerous!”

In a CBS interview with reporter Sharyl Atkisson, Dr. Bernadine Healy discussed the reluctance to acknowledge and research vaccine problems as follows:

“Healy goes on to say public health officials have intentionally avoided researching whether subsets of children are ‘susceptible’ to vaccine side effects – afraid the answer will scare the public.

“‘You’re saying that public health officials have turned their back on a viable area of research largely because they’re afraid of what might be found?’ Attkisson asked.

“Healy said: ‘There is a completely expressed concern that they don’t want to pursue a hypothesis because that hypothesis could be damaging to the public health community at large by scaring people. First of all,’ Healy said, ‘I think the public’s smarter than that. The public values vaccines. But more importantly, I don’t think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you’re afraid of what it might show.’”

Regarding my Sept. 13 1:39 a.m. comment, I neglected to post the link to the CBS interview, which is at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/12/cbsnews_investigates/main4086809.shtml

Dr. Bernadine Healy is the former head of the National Institutes of Health

Twyla – I agree with you and Dr. Healy that no medical intervention should be above investigation. Even if there is no intentional misrepresentation of its safety/efficacy, researchers can be and often are either mistaken or unaware of unanticipated or long term negative outcomes.

I would never suggest that vaccines should not be investigated and made as safe as possible. And I personally (not based on studies, just on general understanding of how things work) believe that it’s very possible to over-do medications including vaccines.

Heck, look what has happened as a result of overusing antibiotics! And I question the positive outcome of hypercleanliness (using purell every few seconds): some studies suggest that this has lowered kids ability to fight off disease.

Having agreed with you on this point, though, is NOT the same thing as saying “so therefore vaccines cause autism” — especially if you’re pointing to an enormous increase in autism and saying that it’s directly attributable to vaccines.

Lisa

Twyla~ golden calf is a little dramatic. We would need more specified explanation than just seriously injured, and is it the whole vaccine schedule, or just one of the vaccines of it as some think the MMR? Even then, there is no perfect medicine that will ever come without side effects, yet you have to specify the manner of those side effects and why only “some children are being seriously injured” and what is the means of why that happened.
I disagree financial interests. One, every one should know vaccines carry side effects and risks, it was known to my own mother in the 1960′s. Those side effects and risks still carry on today. Two, many have a choice- choose not to vaccinate is one of them. No one is directly financially benefiting you or me to vaccinate. Example, how many children do get the Hep b at birth? That’s when it’s recommended, but do you know the stats? My kid never had the hep b at birth. Parents pretty much always had the choices right there and no one can blame whoever and financial interests for parents just not researching their child’s medical options. I suppose it makes for a better printed article, but why not educate people they have choices than to spread rumors? You don’t need the CDC to change choices that was always there.

They should look at those “some children seriously injured” and hopefully one day come up with a test that will show a child’s genetic predisposition that may effect vaccines however, much of the human body is complicated for instance ADEM can be a side effect of vaccines yet there’s no way of telling who is predisposed but at the same time, ADEM occurs following a viral infection which could be the common cold. That predisposition then can not only be prevented by avoiding vaccines. You’d need to avoid everything viral. People assume making change to the vaccine schedule or researching them will prevent ‘serious injury’ however there is no proof vaccines would be and is the only trigger for a genetic predisposition. It makes for a good story bringing up the Poling or Bates cases, only those cases hardly depicts or represents the whole of those with autism nor should we base changes on those cases.
“There is a completely expressed concern that they don’t want to pursue a hypothesis because that hypothesis could be damaging to the public health community at large by scaring people.” that’s the opinion of Healy with little valid anything. How much more scarier can it be to the public that vaccines cause autism? Even if there is no proof of that, it still greatly effects the public and allows parents who never knew they had a choice, that they do. That’s a laughable suggestion, that ‘they’ wont pursue something for fear of scaring the people. I could see this if we were talking mortality, but we’re not. People then must believe the general public is pretty much a scaredy cat?

Now no where do I think vaccines do or don’t, however all that’s presented is nothing but a bunch of words of accusations and maybe’s. if ‘they’ are guilty of not pursuing something for fear of scaring the public, then others are guilty of not offering the public anything but maybe’s and mights.

Thank you ANB! If I understand correctly there is transient acquired mitochodrial disease. If the vaccines can bring about autism in the presence of mitochodrial disease it would logically follow that it doesn’t necessarily have to be genetic mitochondrial disease. Can this be proven, not if the child had , as in your list, #1 , resolved damage. What toxins are present that could cause this? Perhaps this is where the adjuvants/viruses/preservatives come into play? What if we create a short lived combination of mitochondrial disease/vaccine response at exactly the same moment?

barbaraj~ What ANB is saying is ‘if’ a child’s mitochondria were damaged by some “toxin”. That toxin mentioned generally is the result of the incompletely burned food might accumulate as poison/ toxin inside the body. And, there may be acquired mitochondrial dysfunction due to adverse effects of drugs, infections, or other environmental causes but they key word there is “may” so of course that is a guess and not ruling out that possibility but there is no specific known for that acquired mitochondrial dysfunction. More recognized and known is the genetic factors. Of course, mitochondrial dysfunction is not autism and even with acquired possibilities, the known outcomes are also not autism.

All of the speculation started when the Poling case came up, and although it is said her’s is genetic, some known sites are trying to link it to vaccines but we also must keep in mind, in the Poling case, she had 9 vaccines in one day which is not what most kids ever get.

As for your nephew loosing weight, and symptom’s getting better, you’d then have to consider if the symptom’s were due to another cause, or simply your nephew is just feeling better after the weight loss, which being over weight certainly would effect overall energy level in anyone, and organs. Also, there are no cures for mitochondrial diseases, but treatment can help reduce symptoms, or delay or prevent the progression of the disease. It would be highly unlikely your nephew has/ had mitochondrial disease and then never have treatment and expect the progression of the disease not to be there.

Sandy I understand, however, what is a guess? Don’t guesses and questions evolve into answers? It gave me hope. I realize that given the respectable medical institution that diagnosed this child,that likely they wouldn’t have missed “genetic” mitochondrial disease. Maybe some are prone or more likely to get the acquired type and maybe it is so transient it doesn’t leave footprints. I am thinking that there isn’t a world of difference between the vaccines and the chemicals known to disrupt energy. Pentachlorophenal comes to mind, it worked so well with weight loss that some took it for that purpose and died. They died because their bodies were like furnaces that couldn’t be shut down. Lessor illnesses were caused by chlorophenol, the angent orange/ and it’s legacy 2-4d that we all use to kill off the spring dandelions. I had a friend who lost her husband after a round on a golf course from exposure to daconil.Monsanto sent lenin-fink dioxin contaminated phenol for use in their lysol spray, I don’t recall this ever making the “mainstream” news. Phenol is in vaccines, mercury is in lawn chemicals, there are things I know about on a different level so when I guess, I don’t feel like I’m that far off. There are many “uncouplers” used in agriculture, I’m sure someone familiar with medicine could share a list of similar “uncouplers” used in vaccines. Perhaps, something set the stage..I know nothing about pitocin, terbutaline, epidural drugs..it would be interesting to find if any of these are “uncouplers’.

I’m about ready to get off my soapbox, only because I don’t know enough, and need to do some reading. A thought though, what if? the hepb given at birth caused early autism simply because the infant wasn’t given time to clear birthing drugs from his system. Remember when you brought your babies back to put them under the lights, and your mother said, “no one had jaundice when I had children”. All of those built in maternal antibodies, to measles, mumps, and a slew of other things, may have a normal time for clearing as well, maybe we have disrupted the normal actions of the little bodies by forcing foreign materials into them.

barbaraj~ some where along the way, aside from that autism diagnosis, mitochondrial diseases should have made it’s presence. People have this disorder many times and do not have autism so I doubt it would or will be a normal test during a diagnosis of autism. However, when I was looking for a diagnosis, prior to concluding autism, we had to have other tests done to rule out other things, one being genetic. Not all doctors suggest this and not all insurances would cover that test. Many parents out there who have children with autism never have an MRI, EEG, genetic testing just to name a few. Those ‘guesses’ are there with mitochondrial diseases, and the use of ‘may’ because they’re not ruling that factor out but the fact really is that probably there is no known outside acquired cases, for sure or so few of them it’s not a factor. That’s hard to say but the fact would still remain, the acquired would still be how that body reacted to the drugs, infections, or other environmental causes. How one body reacts does not at all depict all bodies will the same way.

You have some good questions, and ruling out the long term exposure to chemicals an pollutants as momof3 has continuously pointed out are in our everyday exposure much more than vaccines are. The unknowns of our history could in the long term effect us genetically. Infant jaundice happens most times because the babies baby’s liver isn’t mature enough to get rid of bilirubin in the bloodstream. Bilirubin is not a man-made drug, either. Maybe the reason why your mother never seen babies with it is since most are pre term births 36 weeks or soner, and probably way back when, those infants died at birth. The babies have their mothers immune system I believe until they are 6 months old, so if there is something going on, as much as I hate to say it, maybe it starts with the mother. Those built in antibodies from the mother at the time of the MMR would be gone. My son never had the hep b at birth nor did I have birthing drugs however for those that have, one still would have to explain why that child and not the one next to him/her.

I posted links to some information on mitochondrial disorders yesterday, but I don’t see them there yet. I hope it’s o.k. to post these two links:

David Kirby’s Autism One presentation: “Metals, Myelin & Mitochondria Pathways to Autism?”
http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/05/david-kirbys-autism-one-presentation-metals-myelin-mitochondria-pathways-to-autism.html

http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/07/top-mitochondri.html

Hi BarbaraJ:
My husband reacted to a tetanus shot. It took four years and a trip to the Emory Clinic before he was diagnosed with a mitochondrial disorder not inherited but acquired. He has trouble in the energy cycle Complex I and Complex III.

I am beginning to think that it is not the mitochondria that is messed up but something else. Recently some brillant person blogged that peroxisomes which are also in the cells along with mitochondria have the job of breaking up long chains of carbohydrates (that glucose energy cycle again) and getting them ready to cross the membrane of the mitorchondria to be changed into energy.

It takes L-Carnitine to help the peroxisomes to break up the long chain carbohydrates. My husband as well as my autistic/epileptic son both have low L-carnitine levels.

It takes lots of vitamin C for the body to make L-Carnitine. The body makes it in the liver and then it is stored in the skeletal muscles.

You can also get it from eating beef and lamb (red meat that the American diet is critized forconsuming) We, our family hardly ever ate red meat when my kids were little. Television and docotors all make us feel so guilty in eating red meat. And the medical society is so againest eating any fat in the diets at all. We for years were on the low fat/very little red meat/ no egg diet. Although I always rasied a garden and we ate well when it came to vegatables, I do not think I did my family any favors by eliminating fats and meat. I should have reduced grains, cereal, bread, and sugar instead. Milk – I know many believe in the stopping casein too – but really I think it is the carbs in milk that is helpful. I was suprised by how many carbohydrates are in milk.

Sorry I have gone to long on this.

Thanks Needa, I very much appreciate your comments, they have redirected my reading. Not that I understand a bit of it, but eventually within the sci-speak I’m hoping to find a clue that I’m comfortable with. Here is an interesting mention..
Wiest MM, German JB, Harvey DJ, Watkins SM, Hertz-Picciotto I.
Division of Epidemiology, Department of Public Health, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA. mwiest@uidaho.edu

Increasing evidence is mounting in support of fatty acid metabolism playing a role in neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism. In order to definitely determine whether fatty acid concentrations were associated with autism, we quantitatively measured 30 fatty acids from seven lipid classes in plasma from a large subset of subjects enrolled in the Childhood Autism Risk from Genetics and the Environment (CHARGE) study. The CHARGE study is a large, population-based case-control study on children aged 2-5 born in California. Our subset consisted of 153 children with autism and 97 developmentally normal controls. Results showed that docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22:6n-3) was significantly decreased in phosphatidylethanolamine. Dimethyl acetals were significantly decreased in phosphatidylethanolamine and phosphatidylcholine as well. These results are consistent with the only other study to measure dimethyl acetals in children with autism, and suggest that the function of peroxisomes and the enzymes of the peroxisome involved with fatty acid metabolism may be affected in autism
.
How do we interpret this? Could it be that oxidative stress causes autism and vaccines cause oxidative stress? Why some children? Because we are all different, just like the chemically sensitive and those that react to anethetics, we were told it was low glutathione, and while this wasn’t much of an explanation it all fits that it could simply be oxidative stress? I don’t think one would have to have a diagnosed mitochodrial defect to experience this? Should we pump our kids up with anti oxidants? Am I understanding this correctly?

Inflammation is involved some how in all this too. At least in my family’s case. Inflammation of the blood vessels, which my son, my husband, and my daughter all have or had.

Oxidative stress. For 20 years my husband and son took what the doctor at the Emory clinic suggested for oxidative stress – Co enzyme Q 10. It cost just my husband 600 dollars a month. It is made from beef hearts, and later it was made from fermenting algae.

It might of helped, but it could have been the placebo effect too. Dr. Poling whose daughter was discussed here Hannah Poling, said that taking oxidative stress reducers was like pouring water on a burnt out building. Too late or maybe that is not the right answer.

Tell me what you think gluathione means to you? I seem to be having trouble really understanding that one?

I don’t understand either Needa, I’ve just accepted that those with higher levels rid their body of toxins better than those with low levels.

ANB
“I was in Washington, DC to observe and report on Typhoid Jenny’s Green Vaccine Rally.”
So the only autism issue you felt was worth traveling to DC for was to find fault with other people’s opinions?
And you say other people are closed minded. .

Well now Rick, how can you say that when that was post 193 and it’s on 245? Of 52 comments between there and now, you back tracked to it to comment too when you already commented within those? It kind of seems you’re finding fault with ANB’s opinion. A closed minded person wouldn’t had gone to DC at all.

An open minded person wouldn’t have gone to DC to observe and report on “Typhoid Jenny’s” Green Vaccine Rally.
My size XL tee shirt from the event has no mention of “Typhoid” or “Jenny”.

You should allow people to have their own opinion, I don’t much care for the lady myself and plenty have written articles pro and con about her. You don’t have to agree with the opinion, I don’t agree with yours, either but I don’t call you out on it. It has no functional purpose at all. No one was calling you Typhoid.

This thread has been running nicely for a change, let’s not give any reason to have it shut.

Have any input on mitochondrial disorders?

Twyla~ Is David Kirby more than just an American journalist?
From Kirby’s article:
“is there a relationship between mitochondrial disease and vaccination and mitochondrial disease and autism?” Dr. Wallace told the committee. “Would a vaccination or infection initiate an incipient mitochondrial disease, as has been suggested?” There is no way to prove this, he said.”

Did you know that in 2008 a study was released and the findings were that one
in every 200 people are born with the DNA mutation?

The best poison is the one that messes up the metabolism of insects.

So if I throw some pesticide down on some water to kill a mosquito and that mosquito dies, well that mosquito had a mitochondria disorder to begin and would have eventually died anyway.

Well you wanted some one to say something else about mitochondria!

There is no doubt in my family’s case that if not for the vaccine reactions they would have had a healthy life in their youth anyway.

And a few years of health is important, after all none of us are promised tomorrow anyway.

But how do you know any infection wouldn’t of had that same effect? Was it the effect of what of the vaccine or the virus itself in the vaccine and if so, what if there was exposure to the actual virus other than the vaccine? It seems no one has an answer to that question however mitochondria disorder at birth is not as rare as once thought. They do need to research exactly what effects mitochondria disorder so people can make good choices other than vaccines.

Mr. Wonderful,

I have a question: Your son was born in 1976, which is 3 yr’s after me. He had a completely different recommend shot schedule then children today. My question is what vaccine do you believe contributed to your sons vaccine injury?

Sandy asked, “Twyla~ Is David Kirby more than just an American journalist?”

He is a journalist, but he has an excellent ability for understanding and explaining science. His AutismOne presentation on “Metals, Myelin & Mitochondria Pathways to Autism?”, which I linked to in comment # 242, is quite interesting and informative.

I knew who Kirby is, he also made a few bucks on a book. Deer has the same great ability explaining science. Neither are doctors or scientists.

David Kirby wrote an excellent book Evidence of Harm.

I have an extremely low opinion of Brian Deer, and I don’t find him able to understand and explain science at all. See http://www.viddler.com/explore/ziggy/videos/1/

That’s ok, I have an extremely low opinion of Kirby, making a profit off of parents. Nice video. I seen Deer on Dateline, I understood him pretty well but then I didn’t see his book.

I saw John Deer on a video. He was a bad man! I saw a video of the parents of an autistic child that had allowed him into their home so he could interview them and see their sick son. He visited the parents of an autistic child and mislead them as to why he was there. He saw that child with a bag hanging out of the side of his stomach!

Later he said on the streets of London as he was going into the GM trial of Dr. Wakefield that he did not know of any bowel disease. Oh, he said when they showed him a picture, that’s not bowwweall disease that’s constipation!
He is a bad man!

Well, I wouldn’t buy into every video I seen on the web, but what does a bag have to do with autism? I know some kids who have other medical issues and they require a feeding tube. The child Dateline showed at Thougtful House did have constipation, it also didn’t seem like the scope found much. Who is John Deer?

Twyla, Thanks for putting up that link!! Needa did you read it? He covered it all, so well put together, very compelling information. I do have to finish the last chapter, and will do so in the morning.

I remember, back in the days of resistance to chemical sprays in the northwest , there were people being paid to misinform the masses, they went as far as to threaten those of us that were considered activists. Stupid things, like sitting at the end of the street in a chemical truck, the sound of a shot gun at night, then more serious threats, calls saying “be careful” there are those that don’t want your voice to be heard. Carol Van Strum, lost her home to a suspicious fire, not just her home, her four children died in the fire. Chemical companies are huge profitable businesses as are drug companies. It’s my opinion to beware of studies and information paid for by those that have the profit link. Follow the money and each and every time you will see lies. Many think of people assoiated with the Rachel Carson Council, NCAMP, are tree huggers, this is not the case, there are well qualified scientists on board and myriad volunteers that work very hard at keeping the world safer for our children. Great strides have been made, they may not make the evening news, but your child is safer sitting in his school cafeteria than he would have been just ten years ago. His IQ isn’t being lowered by neurotoxins, his body isn’t absorbing endocrine disruptors, the biggest culprit has been banned. I hate to tell you how long the information was available before this small step was made, at least 25 yrs., court battles, lobbyists, talking heads, all stepped up in defense of poison for all of those years.People who knew the truth were spoke of as ill informed , uneducated, etc. the words are sounding much the same with this issue. Deer may be typical?

Sandy said David Kirby is “making a profit off of parents”.

Mr. Kirby disclosed his autism-related income here: http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/11/david-kirby-to.html
“In the interest of public disclosure, I can categorically state that I have earned approximately $140,000 from my autism-related activities. This includes the advance and royalties from my book, ‘Evidence of Harm,’ all speaking fees, a movie option and various freelance writing assignments. This income has been spread out over a six-year period (2003-2008, inclusive), for an average of about $23,300 per year.”

David Kirby has stuck with a story that has made him very little money. He is a hero.

I believe Needa means Brian Deer. I sometimes accidentally call him John Deer, too!

Another interesting thing about Brian Deer — he has been attending Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s hearing every day, but has no apparent source of income. Who is paying him?

Twyla~ I’m glad he’s your hero, but he isn’t mine. Since you’re part of Age of Autism, I suppose that’s why you site Kirby all the time. No one really needed Kirby for Dr. Wallace’s work, either. The article didn’t provide many answer’s. The leading person on mitochondrial disease stated “There is no way to provethis” That can be found without Kirby. Kirby’s theory kind of doesn’t hold water, either since those rates never dropped.

Both Kirby and Deer are journalists. Are they not suppose to cover important stories??

An open minded person wouldn’t have gone to DC to observe and report on “Typhoid Jenny’s” Green Vaccine Rally.

How do you know I wasn’t open minded when I went there? I posted the videos to YouTube?

David Kirby is better described as a paid publicist for a fringe anti-vaccine group.

Sorry, I did mean Brian Deer, not John Deer which is a green tractor. Since I am in the middle of America the tractor John Deer are just two words that really belong together and used a lot! This MAN Brian Deer really disturbed me! There are certian things that no human being should do for money because life is just too short! Brian Deer knocking on the door of the home of a very sick child and twisting facts till they suited his needs. That is creepy!

What is a bag hanging out of the side of a child for if it is just constipation, and not a bowel disease? Ennamas is what you do for constipation, or even a syringe ennama! Since when do you hang the intestine outside the human body, and put a bag on the end of it and not call it a bowel disease? That was a stupid statment from a reporter? Or worse than stupid, a deflecting, twisting in the wind lie!
I have not read a lot of Kirby’s work, but so far I have seen nothing out of him that is not thoughtful, sensible, down to earth common sense!

Needa~ Bowel disease is not part of autism. It would be a co morbid. It is hard to make a judgement on the little info you’ve given about that situation or the video you seen or who made the video. Maybe Wakefield’s painful GI tests is the result of that bag. I read that a few of the parents of Wakefield’s debunked study welcomed Deer and was happy to speak to him.

This ‘was’ a comparison only to journalists, of which all has an agenda. Both have no real connection to the autism community at all other than what they report on. Deer’s connection really wasn’t about autism, but a horribly flawed study.

BarbaraJ:

Did I see Twyla’s link to the video? Yes, plus I have read somewhere else about Brian Deer and Dr. Wakefield, (don’t remember where or when). It was during this time my family really had to deal with epilepsy/medications/hospitals/doctors so things kind of get blurred and confused in my mine.

Or do you mean “Evidence of Harm” No, I have not.
I read “A Shot in the Dark” though – years ago. they did not have it at the public library, so the county librian ordered it from another public library that have it. After I read it I bought me two copies one for me and one for our public library so they would have their own copy of it!

How is “Evidence of Harm”? Is it good?

Sandy;
I witnessed my son and daughter both have immediate reactions to the whooping cough vaccine and the doctors insisting on more!
I have lived through my daughter’s Kawasaki’s (acute immune something). I never ever heard of this disease and I have seen plenty for I grew up when scarlet fever, measles, mumps, chicken poxs,Roseola were common. This Kawasaki’s – it was new! It started back in 1967 in Japan at the same time that a large number of parents were complaining about seeing their children reacting to the DPT shot.

I witnessed my son have a stroke a few hours after a whooping cough!

There is no doubt in my mind that the MMR is giving some people the same trouble that the DPT gave my family.

No, my kids never had any problems with the MMR, but I believe some poor grandmother with all the hurt in her eyes tell me at my cousin’s baby shower that her grandson reacted to the MMR, and he cries all the time with his belly-seven years old and has the runs all the time!

I beleive the vet in our small town that knows about my son and tells me his beautiful daughter has Crones diesase, and he suppects it was the MMR vaccine.

They know so little about the immune system.Time to do some really heavy lifting (research) and discover what exactly is going on!

This denial of any problems with vaccines is getting in the way.

In Evidence of Harm, Kirby makes a case that thimerosal in vaccines is responsible for an epidemic of autism in the US. Both claims are easily refutable, and in fact Kirby has since backed off on the thimerosal-autism link.

Benedetta Stilwell ~ Have I ever denied that vaccines do injure kids? Or that vaccines were not for all kids? I believe you are mistaking what my opinion really is and it is not anti or pro vaccines. My kid also had severe chronic diarrhea for years which was so bad, the GI doc did order a scope. Some kids are born with intestine defects and some allergies can only be known via a gut biopsy. The only way to do that is a GI scope. The odd thing is my kid has a high tolerance for pain, which is a known autism symptom so when some people report their kids with autism are in pain, my kid never shows he ever is.

Are you saying your child had a stroke after catching whooping cough or from the vaccine? Contracting whooping cough and not properly treated can cause lack of oxygen to the brain and seizures.

I’ve known kids who have had Kawasaki disease. What it is, is inflammation of arteries, and is an auto immune disorder. The thing with it, is there is no known cause for it. There are theories, like carpet cleaner, but so far nothing conclusive. It’s probably been around for a long time, but medical people named it in the 1960′s. The highest incidence of Kawasaki disease does occur in Japan, Kawasaki disease is predominantly a disease of young children, with 80% of patients younger than 5 years old. It affects boys more than girls and was extremely uncommon in caucasians until the last few decades. Approximately 2000-4000 cases are identified in the United States each year. These things could just be due to environmental issues, over generations of exposure. It’s not just autism rates that are higher, a ton of things are and they all cant be solely related to vaccines.

It’s not denial, if that’s what you’re assuming with me. It’s logical questions that no one can answer and vaccines alone cant explain.

ANB~ that’s correct, the book was all about Thimerosal and some where I have saved where Kirby had to admit once that study came out that maybe it wasn’t Thimerosal after all. Since, he’s used the Poling case for the theory of mitochondrial disease, which the expert he interviewed plainly said “There is no way to prove this”. What better manner to have a theory of cause when it cant be proven? Kirby also has gone off on aluminum and other things in the vaccines to make his theory still plausible. Kirby and no one else can tell you what is it about vaccines that ‘does it’. The day that one person can, that will be the hero.

The thing is that yes some children have reactions to vaccines that isn’t a denial. Why do some have the reactions others don’t? Why do some have weak auto immune systems and others don’t? What happens if a child who already has a weak auto immune system to begin with contracted these virus if not vaccinated? Why is there not only the increase in autism rates but birth defects,cancer,, and the list goes on? There is more then just vaccine injury going on. Being the mother of a son who was born with a duplication of the ear canal and inner ear deformity, then find out at the age of 4 he had autism ask why?

IN 1913 my grandfather was born 3 months premature due to his mother contracting rubella. He was very lucky to have survived in the era. Exposing pregnant woman to rubella, it would be ok to eliminate the MMR and causing prematurity rates to go up, not to mention the Nero damage caused to the fetus or infant, or death?

I had a daughter shortly after birth in NICU having IV’s and feeding tubes and an oxygen hood. Not knowing what was going to happen, its not fun. Is this what we want?

Had a great uncle who had polo: Confined to a wheel chair and unable to speak at the age of 2. Not being able to use his arms,legs,hand, and this is what we want?

Environmental factors of the air pollution and food preservatives could play a huge role in all of this. Again industrial pollution is documented as far back as the 1200′s. When living in a town or city that has industrial factories that when it rains it eats the paint off the cars, what the heck is the air we breathing in doing to our bodies?

Asking questions doesn’t make one pro or anti Vaccine. I myself don’t want my son thrown into some else’s opinion.

ANB
“How do you know I wasn’t open minded when I went there? I posted the videos to YouTube?”

Because in most of your UTUBES you refer the the rally and the participants as “anti-vaccine activists”. Did you see me in the utube video below? I’m the guy with the green tee shirt. No one I saw there was “anit-vaccine”. They were talking about safe, properly tested vaccines.
If vaccines are so safe, why did Congress feel it was necessary to enact the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 (P. L.99-660), which established the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysy18xiI8gQ About 2,000 anti-vaccine activists gathered near the Washington Monument in Washington DC before marching to the Capitol Building.

Momof3
I want it all. I want the human race to have it all. I want vaccines to protect us from diseases like babies in the womb from heart defects from rubella, I want protection from Polio (I have seen its results too) BUT I WANT this autism, strokes, kawasaki’s, autoimmune disesase looked into also.

We can have it all, we just have to stop this denial about vaccines causing harm roll up our sleeves and find good answers.

Or is the immune system beyond human understanding?

Oh and it was the whooping cough Vaccine that caused the stroke. It was not the first time my son had reacted. He had reacted previously with passing out 105.5 temperature and the doctor said no big deal- you are behind and you are to get that shot today.

Yes, I am aware that babies under a month that horrible things can happen to them if they catch whooping cough. I do not understand why the mother’s immunity to that disease is not passed on her her baby to protect it during the first few months, but I know of incidences were this has failed.

Let us study that too and fine answers.

Or once again is it too complicated for the human race to understand?

momof3~ exposures to our grand parents and great, great , great grand parents probably does play a role in the genetic factors of what’s going on today.

The difference between pro and anti vaccine is no one has a right to make that choice for you or assume your own choices is a one size fits all for all. The CDC does not have a one size fits all and never did. It’s a ‘recommended’ schedule and most states have waivers. A parent can also have their child’s titers tested and if there is that immunity, no one is going to suggest a vaccine anyway. My mother knew these things in the 1960′s, long before Kirby, McCarthy or the world wide web. My mother didn’t believe in vaccines mainly due to fear and her fathers opinion of them even though kids on her street died from childhood diseases and she had one herself that damaged her heart valves, that fear of us dying or damaged heart valves never crossed her mind and I never had any vaccines as a child. It’s amazing the things my mother knew waaaaay before vaccines were said to cause autism, although her reasonings were really based only on fear.

My kids highest temp was 105.8 and it was bacterial, but he didn’t have a seizure to it. Any time he has a temp, they are extremely high.
In order to have it all, you have to first determine what of the vaccine caused the harm. Was it the virus or other additives? Was it the persons own anti bodies attacking and going hay wire? Would they had done the same to full exposure to the virus? There can not be true denial when no one has the full pictures of vaccine harm and why some are harmed while others are not, why more boys than girls for many disorders and diseases, and so on. There is no way to know that because your child had a reaction, why her’s over there didn’t.

The only perfect world is Walgreen’s Perfect world. Reality is, this world is not perfect and children are dying of cancer while my child struggles with autism. There really is no one person or place to blame for many things of this world, disorder’s and diseases happen and I hope my child never has a life threatening anything, but all I can do is make good choices for us, not you.

Last Friday after travelling 2 hrs. to visit his
Dietary Specialist ( a wonderful MD. who specializes
in the dietary needs of Children with Autism and has
an autistic son) my grandson had a Seizure. There was no sign or symptom which precluded the event.
Although he has a history of febrile seizures, my
grandson is 7 and hasn’t experienced one in over 3-1/2 years. We all thought he had outgrown them.
He is in a ‘home-based’ program and the changes we
have witnessed in him have been slow in progress but
none-the-less amazing and ongoing.
His physician told my daughter that what concerned him was that there were trace amounts of
ANTIMONY in his urine….also that, strangely enough, he has seen approx. 20 children with this
poison in their urine in the past year. If you don’t know what ANTIMONY is, look it up. IT WILL SCARE THE HECK OUT OF YOU!!! One of the symptoms of Antimony poisoning is seizure.
We, as a family, are trying to be diligent to come
to the bottom of this, but it’s hard to know where to start. Is it in the dietary supplements he takes?
Is it in the environment? Is it in the cup he drinks from? Is it in the cartons that contain his juice? WHERE WHERE WHERE IS IT!!!!!

Just wanted to put this out there. Just when we thought everything was going so well………

I chose this forum because I think there are educated, experienced people who participate in it.

Please pray for Zachary

Rick~ McCarthy was anti vaccine and only changed her wording once she was being questioned about her stance. Surprisingly, the Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 was a tad bit before those autism rates sky rocketed. The reason why it was created is because vaccines have always always had side effects. That is nothing new. People have been injured by vaccines and there is no arguing that. That act creation has nothing to do with autism at all, and only proves yes, vaccines carry risks and always have. If you didn’t know that back in 1976, you should have.

“Evidence of Harm” Oh, I will have to read it.

When my daughter had Kawasaki’s it sure looked a lot like mercury posioning aconydia. Not that I thought it was at the time and really I don’t know now either. But maybe it was a mercury overload from the vaccines, I don’t remember the doctors ordering any test for mercury at the time, althought there could have been because there were so many.

But they are still putting mercury in vaccines and they will tell you that they are. The Flu vaccine, other vaccines in multi vials.

And also antigens (piecies of protein belonging to pathogens and stimulates the immune system) have become fewer and more refined over the years in the vaccines. So to get the immune system to react to these vaccines they are attaching adjuvants to them. These adjuvants is things like aluminum and some type of fat or oil like substance called squalene (that was used with the vaccine anthrax).

It is one thing to drink a coke from an aluminum can and it is another thing to have it shot up in your veins or even breath it it. Just like mercury; school kids use to play with it in science class, but breathing it or attaching it to a carbon atom and eating it — very bad Mad hatter type of stuff!

Kayleen~ that is so sad and scary and your grand baby has my prayers. You’re right, it did scare the heck out of me. Did they test his urine specificaly for that or did they find that by accident? Have you looked up what things use that Antimony? It’s used in many things you’d find in any home. The starting place for me would be in the home, and possible ingestion or maybe even inhaling. I sure hope the doctors can help him.

Kayleen,

My heart goes out to you and your family. From what I found is the following:

A metallic element having four allotropic forms, the most common of which is a hard, extremely brittle, lustrous, silver-white, crystalline material. It is used in a wide variety of alloys, especially with lead in battery plates, and in the manufacture of flame-proofing compounds, paint, semiconductor devices, and ceramic,products especially with lead in car batteries, and in the manufacture of flameproofing compounds.

If you look up Kawasaki’s symptom’s and mercury poisoning symptom’s one can easily see they are not the same. They wouldn’t have tested for mercury poisoning since the symptom’s of it weren’t presenting, plus since only theories are there for the cause of Kawasaki’s, there is nothing to test for cause other than carpet cleaner.

It is a fact flu vaccines do have Thimerosal it’s also a fact they come Thimerosal free as already covered in this topic comments. Most times the flu jab is brought up is to confirm thimerosal is still there however never is the rates of who ever get’s the flu jab is never included nor how it relates to autism. The fact is that flu jab was never brought up until after that one California study was released more or less stating rates never dropped. After that study, it’s a mad dash to find other vaccines with it, only thing is, the flu jab has never been connected to autism. Aluminum salts is also not the same as drinking from a can of coke and the comparison is not at all the same.

Because in most of your UTUBES you refer to the rally and the participants as “anti-vaccine activists”.

This was McCarthy’s rally, and like it or not, she is most definitely anti-vaccine. Why? Because in her rush to scare parents, she lies about the contents of vaccines, and twists evidence to suit her agenda. For example, McCarthy said then, and still says, that vaccines contain anti-freeze and ether. This is not true. Even her science advisor, Dr. Jay Gordon, admits that vaccines have never contained anti-freeze and ether. McCarthy also said at the time that children are receiving too many vaccines, which is to say they are being protected from too many diseases. Jim Carrey told one reporter he thought the tetanus vaccine was unnecessary. That doesn’t sound “pro-vaccine” to me.

McCarthy cannot absolve herself of the lies just by telling us she is “pro-safe vaccine”. When the anti-vaccine movement starts getting its facts straight, I will find a different way to characterize its members. My goal is simply to be accurate.

How was your child’s antimony poisoning diagnosed? With a blood test?

Thanks, Sandy and Momof3!

Zac has been prescribed supplements to help kelate heavy metals. He also is on a Gluten-free,sugar-free diet. Everything else he eats
is pretty wholistic.
His Dr. specifically checks for these metals because of the kelation approach. Several months ago he only had trace amounts of Antimony. Friday his urine showed a level of “10″, which shows to be a high level.
Zac loves to shred paper. From what I understand about Antimony is that it is either inhaled or ingested. Is it used in the print? Is he absorbing it through his skin? Don’t know. He will have bloodwork tomarrow to check
his blood levels.

My heart goes out to anyone with an Autistic Child. We have been left broken-hearted so many times by the ‘establishment’. Our family chose to align ourselves with people who have had ‘hands-on” experience with this disability. There is a much more open-minded approach, there.
Yes, there are MANY forms of Autism and MANY causes of it. We can all agree on that.

Once my daughter made the comment, “maybe these are God’s new race”…Our world has become so fast-paced…we barely have time to spend with family and child-rearing. Autism makes you draw yourself
back to what’s important.

God bless you all who feel passion for the cause. Maybe we don’t all agree, but we certainly CARE.

The most important use of antimony in the United States is in chemicals used to impregnate plastics, textiles, rubber, and other materials as a flame retardant – that is, a form of fireproofing. This is required by federal law for certain childrens’ clothing. Over half the annual U.S. antimony consumption is for the manufacture of flame retardants.

http://www.mii.org/Minerals/photoant.html

Kayleen~ I really wish your family the best and hope you can find the source of that. My son was tested for many things when he was 3, including heavy metals not due to the vaccines, but because every non food item went into his mouth. Had he had a hold of the Thomas trains that the paint had lead, we’d had been in big trouble and thankfully none of his trains were on the recall list, but it’s an example of a mouther, just about any thing thought not to be dangerous can turn deadly for a kid like him. No one intended him to chew on everything. It also could have been the cause of his GI issues, something he ate getting stuck. We’re lucky I suppose that he didn’t get a hold of any thing made with Antimony, I sure hope when you find out you come back and tell us for this could be a great risk for others.

You know, autism might be partly the result of a fast-paced world, and a world which didn’t know lead in paint seemed like a good idea, until a child ate the paint. No one knew everything, and today no one still knows everything either but it would have to be a race of hard core cold people to intentional harm masses of children and not care. There has to be many causes for autism, and for my child vaccines just isn’t it. While every one battles the vaccine makers, I’d one day like answer to why he has autism and the likeliness if his kids might (not to say that he’ll ever have kids, but maybe he will). Autism certainly does have you appreciate the smaller things in life and for myself, I know there are far worse things my kid could had been diagnosed to have, or could had brought unto himself with his own behaviors.

There are three of us in this discuasion with daughter’s who had Kawasaki!! On an autism board?!
This is a relatively rare illness, especially for girls.

Was your carpets recently cleaned prior to onset? Although it’s higher in boys, which one has to again wonder why that is to begin with, maybe genetically some girls have more boy genes.

Thanks, Sandy!

I can sure relate on the ‘mouthing’!! Zac has eaten Play dough, Candle Wax, soil…. only to name a few….while his younger sister could have toys with ‘small parts’ we still had to consider that Zac LOVED to get small things in his mouth and either chew them up or just move them around in there..He’s pretty much grown out of that phase now, thankfully!
I will be sure to keep you all posted as we find out more…..

God Bless…..

autims news beat,

Jim Carrey’s comment on tetanus shots not nessacary- that is true.

Too many tetanus shots are bad for you. They use to give boosters every six years, now they are insisting on one every three years.

Way before this recommendation, my husband was getting a tetanus booster every three years. This got him inyo trouble! When my husband was only 28 years old he had yet another tetanus shot on his way out of his work place and a few minutes after he got home he passed out and had a seizure!

Four years later he stepped on a nail (and really did need the tetanus shot then) Which they gave him inspite of his last reaction. He experienced immediate muscle weakness and pain that never did go away– and low oxygen readings of his blood. It took four years before he was finally dignosed with an acquired mitochondria disorder.

Too much pushing by the medical community on getting vaccines, on sticking to the schedule.

Parents, Including me wants to take the vaccines and we want to trust the medical people, but they have long since become noncomplacent when it comes to vaccines.

Sandy; Titers – no one mentioned it to my husband as he went in for his last tetanus shot, and we were even voicing great concern.

Titers are never mentioned ever? It is not a choice we even knew existed. Does not the medical community have some responsibility in some way?

If you have a child that had a reaction to a shot with 105.8 and you tell the doctor- doesn’t the doc, and most certianly the people behind him that trained him have a responsibility to say maybe this child should not do the schedule like other kids? Well the doc did not in my case!!!

Jenny Mccarthy has done nothing that should draw such venom from you (autism news beat)? I do not understand?

Sandy????

Girl’s with Kawasaki’s have more boy genes???? That was silly. You like me have been on this blog to long and I don’t know about you but I am getting punch drunk!

No, girls get Kawaski’s just as easy/same as boys. However, boys more often than girls develop lasting serious problems such as the aneurisms that some times go along with that disease

Sorry, boys get Kawasaki’s more than girls do. And it’s not a far-fetched punch drunk. A theory of autism and why more boys than girls, the thought is higher testosterone levels in girls and higher levels than normal in boys.

I am sure that girls and boys are equal in the getting Kawasaki’s.

I am also sure that boys do have a tendency to have more complications from Kawasaki’s than girls.

It has been fun, but I have got to get off of here. I will try to look the girl-boy KD later, and see.

Maybe if you don’t mind can look it up and see what the percentage of girl vs boys are????

Take care

That’s not true. The tetanus for an adult, a booster shouldn’t be required in most cases. I’m not sure why your husbands doctor insisted on every 3 years, but that is not the normal that people ever get. I would have to agree, why would any doctor insist some one have a tetanus every 3 years?? That was That doctors agenda and no one else’s.

My child’s 105.8 highest recorded fever I said was bacterial. I myself wouldn’t have waited for a doctor to say anything and I’m not sure why so many people rely on what any one doctor advises. Had my child had a vaccine reaction, I personally would not assume he’d have that reaction to all vaccines, since all vaccines are not the same. My sons day care provider, the one who first mentioned she thought my son had autism, was where that one high fever started and she never called me, saying doctors don’t consider 105 temp serious these days. My son had horrible damage teeth due to his biting. I took him to a peds dentist who insisted we wrap him in a papoose in order to work on him. Would you as a parent say “sure”? I cant say what my response was to the man without offending people, but there was no way they were going to do that to my little boy. You have a bad doctor, you get a different doctor.

Not sure why no one ever heard of titers. How do you think them doctors know there is a built immunity?

As for McCarthy, although this is off topic, has continuously contradicted herself many times when speaking about her son. In the beginning, that first seizure he had was no where near ever having a vaccine. She also can not conduct herself within mixed company and not use street language. Nothing she is even saying is anything that some one else hasn’t already said long before she ever showed up. She’s not the one who invented bio medical or the GF/CF diet. You don’t have to like anyone’s opinion of her, and you’re going to run into people who don’t share your same opinion.

Kawasaki’s highest rates are in Japan, or Asian groups, one wonders why that is of one country or ethnic group. 80 % of those who get Kawasaki’s are children under the age of 5, one wonders why that is too, and it effects boys twice as often than girls.

Yes Sandy, and when she was sick we went over every possible exposure, only two that stick in my head, lawn spraying by neighbors on both sides and the mmr. Because she developed “transient” neutropenia after the next mmr (booster) in retrospect I had to think HMMM. Today I think differently than I did then, now I more believe the immune deficiency was caused by the mmr, and she simply was just a very sick child because of it. Who knows what was in the lawn sprays, did they cyphon water for the chemical soup out of a creek? Did they pick up some strange bug that she was set up for because of transient immune problems? I would like to tell you she’s healthy and well now, but that isn’t really the case, she has fibromyalgia, chemical sensitivity, and terrible OCD. Not to mention a sed rate that has always indicated inflammation, she was tested at Hopkins Cardiology ,however, only echos , monitors, etc. I refused anything more invasive unless the other tests were to call for it. If she is an unlucky KS survivor there isn’t much that can be done, I had a friend whose son died, another whose son suffered a miocardial infarction at age 12. The future is a bit unknown.

I didn’t mean to dead end the conversation with Kawasaki, and I never would have associated it with autism until the Travolta’s story. The fevers were incredible, they didn’t go away after five days, we started calling them, HerFevers, just a part of her for months. She went to weddings, church, shopping, often with temps over 104.

BabbaraJ;

My daughter too had KD when she was around two. Then when she went in to get her very last DPT shot at five she reacted by passing out and had a very high temp.
it threw her back into some type of inflammatory illness. She was sick all winter, and off and on pretty regularly for the next seven or so years.

She is older much older now and had a Hib B a year ago. Once again that vaccine threw her back into an inflammatory disease, and she is quite ill again.

Is it something in the adjuvant or something in the antigen and what is it in her that makes her so different from the majority of the population.

I have thought in the past that maybe the Japanese were so compliant to authority, and perhaps stuck so strickly to the recommended vaccine schedule that it might be causing the rise in KD in Japan. Under five is the time that most childhood vaccination do take place.

Sort of like when autism first came on the scene and it was mostly white middle class (refrig) Moms following every thing the medical community suggested.

Again, the Travolta’s have never said their child had autism and out right said he did not. It was those of the autism community speculating that child did, just as it is to speculate Albert Einstein had ASD. It is quite disrespectful towards a family whose child died to talk this way about them when there is no valid true to it. No one should cause more agony for that family than they already have and continue to spread false things about them.

There is no supporting evidence Kawasaki is caused by any other than chemical reactions, genetic and environmental factors. Science has identified SNP in the ITPKC gene, and also suggests genetic susceptibility due to the fact that regardless of where they are living, Japanese children are more likely than other children to contract the disease.

As of today, there is no link or suggestion of it to vaccines and or autism.

There is nothing in human history that we have not quickly found out if we wanted too. Even the AIDS virus.

So what is so different in these autoimmune diseases.

And it was not the autism community that said they suspected Jet T. was autistic. It was the news stations that brought it up— and people close to the Travolta’s and what is so disrectful in saying so? Is autism something like dirty laundry or something?

John Travolta reportedly told the police that Jett was autistic.

Yes, Needa, and those of us that have experienced KS and have family members with autism couldn’t easily miss it. John’s brother had put together documentaries , he always knew. I can’t imagine that the Travoltas don’t know more about the corelation between KS and Autism than we do. BTW my daughter had a seizure 2 1/2 months after the onset of KS. You said something interesting, they know what causes aids, and most all diseases but they don’t know what causes autism or ks. Very strange isn’t it. KS is the leading cause of acquired heart disease in children, shouldn’t they have figured this one out?

The autism community has had the Travolta’s for a topic for years, not just since the child’s death. They said the Travolta’s were ‘claiming’ Kawasaki as a front but he really had autism. Prior to his death, the autism community was so bad, the Travolta’s had their attorney make a statement that their child did not have autism. Even still, here we are, that autism community…..

And I seen to the report to the police, consider the source. Fact is until they themselves tell the public, it’s all speculation and even had the child had autism, that case is that sad case. Since he had Kawasaki and being there is no supporting evidence Kawasaki is caused by any other than chemical reactions, genetic and environmental factors, it would had been a co morbid.

Aids is caused by a virus. Autism and Kawasaki as of today, are not caused by that. Doesn’t mean one day they wont find it is caused by a virus, and a virus is much easier to find a cause. My guess is autism is not virused-caused and neither is Kawasaki.

From Kawasaki’s disease, acrodynia, and mercury. Mutter J, Yeter D.; Department of Environmental and Complementary Medicine, Salusmed Medical Center, Berlingen, Switzerland. (HERE), December 2008:

It’s getting more interesting!

oops I dropped the abstract..note.. decreased glutathione increased risk for sensitivity to mercury..It can’t be a coincidence that three people out of how many on here today,have children with KS..
MERCURY again!!

Abstract:

A superantigen or autoimmunity has been hypothesized to be the main cause of the Kawasaki’s Disease but the etiology is unknown. Medical literature, epidemiological findings, and some case reports have suggested that mercury may play a pathogenic role. Several patients with Kawasaki’s Disease have presented with elevated urine mercury levels compared to matched controls. Most symptoms and diagnostic criteria which are seen in children with acrodynia, known to be caused by mercury, are similar to those seen in Kawasaki’s Disease. Genetic depletion of glutathione S-transferase , a susceptibility marker for Kawasaki’s Disease, is known to be also a risk factor for acrodynia and may also increase susceptibility to mercury . Coinciding with the largest increase (1985-1990) of thimerosal (49.6% ethyl mercury) in vaccines, routinely given to infants in the U.S. by 6 months of age (from 75μg to 187.5μg), the rates of Kawasaki’s Disease increased ten times, and, later (1985-1997), by 20 times. Since 1990 88 cases of patients developing Kawasaki’s Disease some days after vaccination have been reported to the Centers of Disease Control (CDC) including 19% manifesting symptoms the same day. The presented pathogenetic model may lead to new preventive- and therapeutic strategies for Kawasaki’s disease.
Keywords: Kawasaki’s disease; mercury; acrodynia; thimerosal; ethyl mercury; methyl mercury; vaccine; dental amalgam

Document Type: Research article

DOI: 10.2174/092986708786848712

Affiliations: 1: Department of Environmental and Complementary Medicine, Salusmed Medical Center, Wieslistrasse 34, CH – 8267 Berlingen, Switzerland.

and how clear is this case…what’s in this vaccine?

http://www.pediatricsupersite.com/view.aspx?rid=40516

A superantigen or autoimmunity has been ‘hypothesized’ to be the main cause of the Kawasaki’s Disease but the etiology is unknown.

Genetic depletion of glutathione S-transferase , a susceptibility marker for Kawasaki’s Disease, is known to be also a risk factor for acrodynia and may also increase susceptibility to mercury .

This of course does not explain the rates of Kawasaki’s Disease After the removal of Thimerosal, lets say the rates of Kawasaki’s Disease in 2005, 06, 07 and 08. They’re only looking at one set of dates to make that hypothesis work. You’d also need to consider the genetic factor to this, and anything else when making choices.

But really, the topic is autism. Any one hear of the feed back the NAA has had from their letter sending?

Sandy, at first I felt it was a bit off topic, then after searching for answers I believe ks and autism are very similar, different manifestations with a similar cause. KS has grown exponentially along side of autism, the glutathione mercury connection..and yet the study doesn’t seem to “fear” the pharms..they actually “said it”. However I am interested, tell me about the letters.

but first..take a look at this..autism connection??
Results
40% of the Kawasaki disease group showed elevated internalising scores in the clinical or borderline-clinical range. This compared with 18% of hospital controls and 13% of sibling controls. Additionally, the Kawasaki disease (KD) group were shown to be experiencing greater overall total difficulties when compared with the controls (KD 13.7, HC 8.6, SC 8.9). The KD group attained higher behavioural scores within the internalising sub-categories of somatic problems (KD 61, HC 57, SC 54) and withdrawn traits (KD 56, HC 53, SC 51). The KD group were also shown to be suffering more thought problems (KD 57, HC 53, SC 50) compared with the controls. Further difficulties relating to conduct (KD 3.3, HC 1.4) and social interactions (KD 6.7, HC 8.3) are also highlighted for the KD group compared with hospital controls. Positron emission tomograms were performed on nine patients to investigate severe behavioural problems. Three showed minor changes, possibly a resolving cerebral vasculopathy.

Needa, when Barbaraj asked if you had read the article I linked to, I believe she was refering to this one:

David Kirby’s Autism One presentation: “Metals, Myelin & Mitochondria Pathways to Autism?”

http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/05/david-kirbys-autism-one-presentation-metals-myelin-mitochondria-pathways-to-autism.html

How do you figure autism and Kawasaki’s Disease very similar, different manifestations with a similar cause? One, that would mean also that Asian groups have much higher rates of both than any where else- or why some have had Kawasaki’s Disease and not autism- symptom’s of either are not at all the same or comparable and neither have a known cause. What you just offered says nothing about prior to Kawasaki’s Disease, only there after. Maybe any of that is the result of treatment. Kawasaki’s Disease rates aren’t even comparable to the autism rates either.

Maybe we can connect Fifth disease to vaccines and autism, too or how about Hand, foot and mouth disease? If you don’t focus on one thing, the other get’s lost. You’re not going to find answers for any, until the day some scientist finds it.

If I recall fifth disease is parvo, hand foot and mouth is coxsackie, no this is different, the cdc is admitting to ks after shots, the mercury connection is there as well, there is a ks warning on rototeq, there is obviously a “kind” of brain damage associated with KS. Asians get the shot that may be the biggest cause of ks, the one mentioned in the case study. To assume it’s genetic because it’s more prevalent in Japan, without looking at , as I believe needa said, a difference in their culture and perhaps their compliance, or looking at the additional shots they receive. It doesn’t look like apples and oranges to me.

Japan: 27 tons of mercury from a paper mill was dumped in the Minamata Bay affecting 3000 people for sure. They also eat lots of sea food, perhaps not only compliance but a tipping point was already in place and waiting for a little bit more medicine.

Thanks Twyla, I have read it.

But Barbara J; surely while our children where in the hospital, and all the many test that were given them including for my duaghter three spinal taps!!! Did they not test for mercury?

Perhaps even the smallest trace of mercury is even too much for those with a gentic depletion glutothione? Is there really a gentic marker for depletion of glutothione s-tranferase?

Hey, I think vaccines are good. Back in the ’60s when I was in the Army and troops with aviation MOSs stood a good chance of getting to visit the former Riviera of Indochina, we all got bubonic plague shots. And here it is 45 years later and I have never had the plague.

Thanks Mr. Wonderful You gave me a very good laugh that was really funny.

..me too mr.wonderful..lol..thanks.

Thanks Mr. Wonderful you gave me a good laugh.

BarbaraJ something new on the Kawasaki’s front just came in a few weeks ago and you may already know. But if your child has had kawasaki’s you need to have their hearts checked out every two years — forever! Even the teaching hospitals have not been informed of this yet. This has changed because they are discovering that children that had Kawasaki’s in the past are running into trouble in thier teens and 20s.

I also noticed you are calling it KS they now call it KD (the newer version of the name)but I don’t know why.

Good night

Barbaraj mentioned “fifth disease”. In the course of my long long life I had never heard of fifth disease, until this past year it was going around my younger daughter’s elementary school, and our family came down with it. What an odd virus — mutating through various phases — sore throat, pink rash, fatigue, and then for the adults very sore joints for a while…

night needa, yep I call it Kawasaki Syndrome..twyla,fifth is dangerous during pregnancy as it causes fetal death..human parvo yep it’s strange ..probably a vaccine coming soon

Japan: 27 tons of mercury from a paper mill was dumped in the Minamata Bay affecting 3000 people for sure.

And yet autism prevalence in the Minimata Bay area is/was no greater than in the rest of Japan.

My husband use to go to Japan on buisness. He hates fish and sea food! He could lose 10 -30 pounds on these trips to Japan. Wonder if any of what they eat is shipped from the bay, or the entire surrounding ocean that is linked to the bay?

“And yet autism prevalence in the Minimata Bay area is/was no greater than in the rest of Japan.”

Evidence? We’re not just going to take your word for it, AutismNewsBeat.

In Minamata Bay, that occurred during 1932 — 1968 when the Chisso Company dumped waste methylmercury from the acetaldehyde production . It’s estimated that over 3,000 people suffered various deformities, severe ‘mercury poisoning’ symptoms or death over. Symptoms of neurological illness, such as uncontrollable trembling, loss of motor control, and partial paralysis. Children were also being born with symptoms similar to cerebral palsy. None of that sounds lies autism or Kawasaki disease. Sounds like mercury poisoning. Anyone can inject into as they want, but it wont change a thing.

Don’t rely on ANB, not only was it no greater there than else where but keep in mind the autism prevalence In Japan is still lower than in the USA. If we’re still talking about Kawasaki disease the fact is being ignored that regardless of where they are living, Japanese children are more likely than other children to contract the disease.

In 1988, it was estimated that 24 million lb/yr (11 million kglyr) of mercury were released into the air, land, and water worldwide as the result of human activities. This included mercury released by mercury mining and refining, various manufacturing operations, the combustion of coal, the discarding of municipal refuse and sewage sludge, and other sources and lets not forget volcano’s.

Sandy
Do You mean Japanese children have more incidence no matter where they live whether in Japan or in the United States?

ANB
If vaccines don’t have some form of anti-freeze how do doctors store it in their freezers? Most vaccines are packed with dry ice when being shipped to doctors and hospitals.
Then too, why has no doctor or pharmaceutical executive taken up Jock Doubleday’s challenge?

http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/VaccineOffer.htm
When Doubleday first made this offer in 2001 the amount was $20,000. The ante is now up to $215,000 and still no takers.
Know anyone who doesn’t need an extra $215,000? I don’t.
Then there is the following link
http://www.vaclib.org/intro/antifreeze.htm
It mentions that vaccines do contain
2-Phenoxyethanol are ethylene glycol phenyl ether

That’s exactly what I said, twice I believe. Japan would have the highest rate of Kawasaki disease since that’s where the ethnic group happens to live in mass in one country. Look it up. Also look up the genes they found concerning Kawasaki disease.

Needa, Barbaraj, etal. You’re welcome. I’m Glad to report that I still don’t have the plague.
While I did in fact send that to add some levity, it also points out that just there is a vaccine everyone should rush out and get it.
Lisa, ANB, have you had your bubonic plague shot yet?
WHY NOT? Are you anti-vaccine?

We really don’t know our toxins, at least I don’t. Who would be most likely to be affected by bacillus cereus, a caucasion child in my house or an Asian child? Nothing about genes here, simply my child received it via injection hib 2007, Asian children get it as a food bourne illness on rice.( assuming heavier exposure to rice) I believe thimerosal can not cause autism, mmr can not cause autism, rubella can not cause autism, testosterone can not cause autism, but put some synergy into play and each of them can. Our government can safely lie to us, because not one of these things by itself can do it. Has it come to this? Will parents have to research on their own, drag up old studies of viral enhancement on exposure to mercury…. increased mercury toxicity in the presence of testosterone? I think it has come to that, and when we find it, watch out because we won’t know what we are talking about, afterall we are just parents. Who would be esteemed enough to put this forth and have their presentation accepted as truth, no one, certainly not the one time director of NIH, she’s already losing ground,not the doctors who have studied actual children..not the scientist .. just who would be believed?

Rick, you never got the bubonic plague because by golly, you had the vaccine and it looks like it worked. Lisa and ANB wouldn’t be at risk for contracting it since they may not had been in the military, going to third world countries, or have a job putting them at higher risk. But then they probably also don’t go near rodents or dead animals. If you’re planning to travel, bubonic plague is still plaguing some countries still today and killing people and it’s also been diagnosed in the USA in recent years. Nice to joke about it.

barbaraj with that line of thinking, no one will ever have answers for you that you’ll accept. In order for that conspiracy hold true, that would mean every single medical person and scientist are in it for all the wrong reasons and lie. That would mean of every country, there is not one scientist able to step out of that Gov. strong hold and be the grand hero to tell the truth.

Many things in life have no answers and the answer to that is not Gov. lying. The human body is incredibly complicated and while some medical things do have answers, there’s still no way to prevent it from happening, and at the same time many things still have no answers either, like cancer or MS prevention. I suppose the Gov. can be blamed for those people not having answers? Slamming the Gov doesn’t find answers, either. Wouldn’t it be nice if no one ever had one serious medical condition? No cancer? No autism? Do you seriously think answers to these things would be with held for the purpose of financial gain? And if they did find a cure for autism, don’t think that all those people like DAN docs and ABA therapists wouldn’t be in on not wanting those answers, they’d loose their financial gain. So would special ed teachers, and those providing HBOT, the GF/CF industry would dwindle. A whole lot of professionals would need another line of work if we lived in Walgreen’s Perfect World. If you’re going to talk about conspiracy, then you have to consider the whole chain that would be included. I myself tend not to believe that DAN docs, ABA therapists, HBOT, special ed teachers and the Gov are not just in it for financial gain. I could of course be very incorrect and maybe they all are.

The people you love are alive, are they not? As opposed to a child who died from cancer, autism seems like a drop in the bucket.

Sandy,
Most people don’t get bubonic plague directly from rodents, so your kid’s hamster probably won’t hurt you. The plague bacteria is most often transmitted to humans by fleas that have picked it up from infected rodents. Those fleas can be in your lawn or the grass at the soccer field for days after the rodent has passed by there.
But then there is pneumonic plague, which is airborne and it can spread from coughs and sneezes.

We are a worldwide embarrassment, look at our mortality for <5 as compared to the rest of the world. Conspiracy? Maybe? Who funds out studies?
You are correct Sandy, if we continue to allow this we will never know, because it is very unlikely that one singular toxin, metal or virus causes either KS or autism. What needs to be studied is the action, the synergistic action of the viruses, testosterone,and metals on each other, as separate entities they likely are safe.

barbaraj~ It’s so predictable that you twist my words and meaning to fit into yours. You cant make the statement I am correct when you didn’t address anything I said. You can study all you want, sometimes those studies go on for eons and they still never produce the answers, or the answers you’re seemingly looking for.

Rick~ lets stick to one plague at a time. Well, yea, we’re not talking about domesticated pets, I’m sure many are well aware of where bubonic plague comes from and Bubonic plague in the 1940′s was used as bio warfare when infected fleas were drooped from planes. Bubonic and Pneumonic plague both are caused by the same bacterium, Yersinia pestis. Did the vaccine for this cause autism??

There is at least one site that lists package inserts for vaccines.
http://www.novaccine.com/specific-vaccines/vaccine.asp?v_id=10
Most list ingredients such as Formaldehyde(that’s what the funeral home uses to keep you looking fresh in the coffin), 2 – Phenoxyethanol(antifreeze) and several with Thimerosal. One, Pediarix, made by GSK, was licenced in Dec 2002, and it contains Thimerosal.

Your own body naturally produces Formaldehyde (you know, that’s what the funeral home uses to keep you looking fresh in the coffin) more than what’s in vaccines.

Sandy,
The same fleas that carry the plague bacteria from rats(rodents) can and are carried by domestic animals such as cats and dogs.

Sandy
“Your own body naturally produces Formaldehyde more than what’s in vaccines.”
Where did you find the numbers on that? I know the body produces formaldehyde as part of metabolism, but I couldn’t find any comparision between the nature amount and the amount in vaccines.

Mr. Wonderful, that information is freely available on the WWW:

http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=75809

Assuming an average weight of a 2-month-old of 5 kg and an average blood volume of 85 ml per kg, the total quantity of formaldehyde found in an infant’s circulation would be about 1.1 mg, a value at least five-fold greater than that to which an infant would be exposed in vaccines.

A shot of DTaP, for instance, contains .1 mg.

A banana contains about 15 mg of FA.

Also, there is no anti-freeze or ether in vaccines – another Generation Rescue talking point.

Now Rick, I bet you find info on this, you just know I’m better at providing it, is that it?

Formaldehyde is produced in the body and is normally found in the blood. It has been estimated that the body produces 50 grams (1¾ ounces) of formaldehyde per day. The fact that the body metabolizes such large amounts of formaldehyde suggests that formaldehyde is not a poison to the internal organs.

Vaccines: formaldehyde is diluted during the manufacturing process, residual quantities of formaldehyde may be found in several current vaccines and one can look up those amounts per any vaccine just as they can for trace amounts of Thimerosal, and that trac is measured in mg, not grams as the above which the body naturally produces. If some one had a disorder which they weren’t producing enough Formaldehyde for that metabolism, the trace amounts in vaccines might just give them an extra boost.

Sandy;
You said something on the order that your children are alive so what are you complaining about. Not your exact words but that is what you meant.

My son is alive by the skin of his teeth. He had a stroke a few hours after his DPT shot and he came close to dying. Years ago I meet a woman on the net that had lost her daughter to a vaccine. Her baby’s heart stopped beating. She was an army wife stationed in North Carolina. I spent hours on line with her as she expressed her pain and her helpless outrage. A few years ago a baby died from a vaccine reaction down in the southeast part of our state, and I spent a great deal of time listening to that heart broken couple cry!

What I am trying to say is that Children do die from these reactions. And when they live they are being left maimed!

My son was maimed.

I know we all felt bad about it when polio was maiming children and wanted an answer, a prevention, a cure, and we got one! So, why is not the same concern being shown to those who reacted to a medicine and the search for answers not as intense ?

Needa~ I of course am only talking about autism, not any of the things you describe about your child, which may be side effects of vaccines that occur to a small amount people. Those same exact side effects is what my mother based her fears on and in which is why we never had a vaccine as a child. That was in the 1960′s. I am sure you, and no scientist can detect or predict which children will have those known side effects of vaccines.

I don’t want to hear about who you talked to on the phone, it’s hearsay and although what ever you say may be true, that parent is not here to speak of their own experience or their own medical issues which could have contributed. I can only speak about my child, you can only speak about yours. A stroke is a hard thing too to know if it was going to happen anyway or if the vaccine caused it. Maybe you can enlighten us on how the doctors determined the cause of the stroke. My nephews disorder, untreated also it will cause strokes and most children have the stroke which then leads to death, but if they survive, it leads to the diagnosis. Some where along the way, they came up with a new born blood test for infants and in fact my nephew was the first ever to be diagnosed in the USA at birth. My nephew will always have risk of strokes even with treatment, and there is no cure.

There may be a test prior to vaccines to prevent those known side effects however, I am talking about autism here, and nothing else. Anything else would be advocating for other reasons.

Needa~ a question. Since your child suffered a stroke, which is a directly known to damage the brain, how they determined that it’s autism and not the result of the stroke? My BIL had a heart attack and had lack of oxygen for far too long. You look at him after you’d think he had autism too, as well as sensory issues, all of which were not present prior to the brain injury due to lack of oxygen. Can you tell me how the doctors separate each, the stroke from autism?

Formaldehyde is naturally produced in very small amounts in our bodies as a part of our normal, everyday metabolism and causes us no harm. It can also be found in the air that we breathe at home and at work, in the food we eat, and in some products that we put on our skin. A major source of formaldehyde that we breathe everyday is found in smog in the lower atmosphere. Automobile exhaust from cars without catalytic converters or those using oxygenated gasoline also contain formaldehyde. At home, formaldehyde is produced by cigarettes and other tobacco products, gas cookers, and open fireplaces. It is also used as a preservative in some foods, such as some types of Italian cheeses, dried foods, and fish. Formaldehyde is found in many products used every day around the house, such as antiseptics, medicines, cosmetics, dish-washing liquids, fabric softeners, shoe-care agents, carpet cleaners, glues and adhesives, lacquers, paper, plastics, and some types of wood products. Some people are exposed to higher levels of formaldehyde if they live in a new mobile home, as formaldehyde is given off as a gas from the manufactured wood products used in these homes.

I apologize Sandy, I didn’t mean to twist your words. I am just dumbfounded by the things I’ve read the last few days, and yes -I think we are picking and choosing, (and by “we” I mean our cdc our mainstream media) Studies ..such as that one in Japan, for heaven’s sake the graph didn’t match the conclusion!… make it into mainstream quickly.

I remember a study , a bonified study on a type of mmr that left the children with acquired immune deficiencies lasting up to five years. Many of these children died from oportunistic infections, not one death certificate said, “mmr”. If vaers reports a death, I multiply that number by a hundred , imo that would be the real number.
Needa, did you notice that some Kawasaki kids show signs of resolved cerebral vasculopathy? How is your daughter’s behaviors?

Interesting that you chose to quote the CHOP Vaccine Education Center.
http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=75809

The director of that center is Paul Offit. Offit has earned between 29 and 50 million dollars from the royalties for the Rotateq vaccine.
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS106778+08-Sep-2009+PRN20090908
That might give him just a incentive to promote vaccines.

Sorry to say but catalytic converters don’t do anything about formaldehyde. They are used to reduce nitrogen oxide, hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide emissions. And since all cars built since the mid 1970s are equiped with catalytic converters the ones without would be very rare.

It’s interesting that you quoted a CHOP web site. The CHOP Vaccine Education Center is headed by Paul Offit. He is between 29 to 50 million dollars richer from his royalties from the Rotateq vaccine. He just might have a vested interest in promoting vaccines.
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS106778+08-Sep-2009+PRN20090908

VAERS is not an accurate or confirmed reporting system, I could send one in and write anything I want however reported deaths has nothing to do with autism.

Kawasaki disease has nothing to do with autism.

Sandy you asked me about the details of my son’s stroke. Yes, is that kinda of what you are asking?

First he reacted to a DPT shot when he was six months old. 105.8 temp, passed out for a few minutes, heavy breathing. I had just gotten him home and it was not really time for his nap so I let him crawl around on the kitchen floor while I started dinner!

He had ear infections, and sick – sick- sick and finally he got over all that.

At nine months old- and he just learned to walk I took him in for a well baby check up and to talk to the doctor about the prious vaccine reaction.

The doctor said it was no big deal, my son was fine, I was to get the third DPT shot done today because we were behind on our shots. I asked the doc if I could divide up the DPT shot and he said no they did not come that way.

Anyway I could not control my son’s fever, it shot up fast after the shot and in a few hours he became catatonic, not moving with his eyes wide open and not moving. The pupils of his eyes went huge.

But anyway I thought he was dead. Then the pupil of his eyes after a while began to shrink and he blinked. After wards he drooled and shook like some seizure. Then he went to sleep and he was cool. He looked just like a peaceful sleeping baby with out a thing wrong with him. He could not be woke up.

The emergency room – it was not taken seriously, I was sent home with him sometime that early morning it was still really dark.

The next morning he woke up late in the morning and that day he did not walk. I thought he just did not feel well, but that was not the case. It took him three months to relearn to walk. He never rode a tricycle, his fine motor skills were ruined. He did not speak a complete sentence untill he was seven or eightyears old. He was attracted to wheels and spinning objects up untill four years old. He looked out of the corner of his eyes for – well I really worked on that, but when he looks directly at you even now it looks a little different (I can not put my finger on it. It is sort of like he is really over trying, I guess).

Six weeks later he had a grandmal seizure with a fever. Strange fever it came out of the middle of no where. The fever lasted for two weeks and I was beginnning to think it was Kawasaki’s. And I took it up on myself to give him asprin. He was sent then to a University to get an EEG and just as he fell asleep he had a seizure (not that I noticed, it was waves on the EEG), so they put him on Phenolbarbitol.

Six weeks later again a strange fever out of nowhere, no sniffles, or feeling ill, just a big fever and another grandmal seizure.

The stroke was denied! Everything was denied. When he was 14 he had a grand mal seizure (even though through the years we had complained about strange episodes that was some sort of petite seizure) and he had his first MIR. Nothing was found or so the docotors said. All EEGs were fine or so the doctors said, No help, no where. Fever would return off and on for years and he had to go to bed for weeks at a time. Light out, dark room, high fever, asprin helped.

SO we moved nine hours away and that along with new insurance, far away from our old peditricians and their whole net work of doctor friends. This time the MRI was done and the doctors saw two white spots on his brain and said it looked like ischemia.

Schools said he was PDD-NOS and later Aspergers. He joined the aspergers society at his new school, there were a lot of them!

Barbara J yes my daughter had issues. She was OC. She washed her hands till they would bleed, She would check and recheck her book bag and purse before she left the house and as she is driving. She has problems with depression. She does not feel sad she is just mean to people. She was really sweet as a little girl and only had a few of these episodes that she was irriatated with people. But these episodes increased over the years. She take paxil now, and she laughs about it. She says she takes it not for her benifit but for other peoples benifits. She does not sleep well and never has. She could always tell me what she dreamed, which is a sign she does not sleep well. She is young but is on paxil, takes ambien to sleep, has acid refux.

I am too long. Sorry!

Sandy, I think autism is a brain injury. I think autism is a stroke caused by a vascular disease just like Kawasaki’s is a vascular disease. Or perhaps I should call it inflammation of the blood vessels, systemic!

Needa, not that it matters but the only way to know exactly when those white spots showed up is to compare MRI pictures and even then at age 14, there’s no way to know when the stroke occurred. if they said it looked like ischemia, how then was it determined it was a stroke?? Ischemia generally is lack of oxygen, which would make sense considering the seizures. But I suppose, different docs read MRI’s differently. Your son obviously does have seizure disorder’s, which also can cause brain damage.

Anyway, you can not say “I think autism is a brain injury”. More correctly you can say “for my child only, I think autism is a brain injury”. Even then, autism isn’t generally a diagnosis when there was a previous known cause of injury that would result in those mimicking symptom’s. That’s why we had to have an MRI and many other tests prior to the autism diagnosis, to rule out other known causes for symptoms.
I wish your family and so the best.

Needa, I’m so sorry for all that you and your children have gone through! Life sure throws us some terrible stuff sometimes — so hard to deal with. May your children do as well as possible, may you find helpful treatments, and may life also hold joys for you all.

Sandy, I often respond to your comments in my head with specific information, but don’t have time to write it down, partly because you write so many comments and they’re often rather lengthy. So, I guess I’ll just have to summarize and say that I find your comments to be extremely tiresome, totally biased, and often nonsensical.

For example, “Even then, autism isn’t generally a diagnosis when there was a previous known cause of injury that would result in those mimicking symptom’s. That’s why we had to have an MRI and many other tests prior to the autism diagnosis, to rule out other known causes for symptoms.”

Other known causes, as if autism is a cause? Autism isn’t a cause. Autism is a collection of behaviors. If you define autism as not caused by brain injury, or not caused by mercury, then of course if there is evidence of brain injury or mercury poisoning then by your definition it is not autism. But your definition is not the official DSM-IV definition, which says nothing about causation/etiology.

It gets to be really tiresome when so many people have no idea what autism is or how to treat it and yet are so sure that they know what it isn’t and what doesn’t cause it, and are so sure that everyone reporting experiences not in step with their preconceptions are delusional or mistaken.

It’s also really annoying when you talk about how parents should know better than to give their babies several vaccines at once. The official CDC schedule calls for giving multiple vaccines simultaneously. These days there’s lots of info on the web about vaccine concerns, and some info in the news. Yet the majority of “experts” continue to insist the schedule is safe. And 10 – 20 years ago there wasn’t even the grassroots movement there is today. It didn’t occur to us to question what was recommended by our doctors, the CDC, the FDA. You’re finding another way to blame the moms — the refrigerator mother theory was bad enough.

Also, regarding the mercury poisoning in Japan — of course it wasn’t identical to autism — they were taking in massive doses of mercury. In large enough doses, Mercury causes extreme physical disability and even death. Death is not like autism. But mercury-induced autism is from much smaller amounts, from vaccines and/or environmental contamination, fish, fillings, etc. The paper Autism a Novel Form of Mercury Poisoning documented the many similarities between autism and low level mercury poisoning. See http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/bernard.pdf

Twyla

Your statement:

It gets to be really tiresome when so many people have no idea what autism is or how to treat it and yet are so sure that they know what it isn’t and what doesn’t cause it, and are so sure that everyone reporting experiences not in step with their preconceptions are delusional or mistaken.

Then this should apply to everyone who has an opinion including yourself that doesn’t agree with someone else?

That is what gets tiresome!! I have been tracking this thread and it seems that it works both ways.

No, mercury poisoning is just that. Lack of oxygen is just that. Strokes is just that. They may have symptom’s close, but they have known causes for those ‘symptoms’. I never said anything about autism being the ’cause’ which would be a dumb thing to say since no one knows the ’cause(s)’.

It does get tiresome when others think they know all the answers. Last I looked Twyla, autism is diagnosed by a DSM. It also get’s tiresome when others think they know what treatments will work for everyone with autism.

Parents are just as responsible for their child medical care as those are who provide it. This does not only apply to vaccines, but for anything medical which would include OTC products. It obvious that parents have trouble asking doctors questions prior, and they should. It obvious many never knew of the already known side effects of vaccines. Some people, maybe you included, want to put the full responsibility onto the medical field when in fact, then who are the sheep? It is a shared responsibility, like it or not. If you feel advocating for asking questions prior to signing a paper to allow medical treatment and getting a 2nd opinion prior to medical treatment, you tell me who is to blame when something goes wrong? I call it educating the public on choices, but yet you compare me to refrigerators mother’s? Mom’s are also not the only ones who help decide the best choices for their kids; many dads play a larger role than you think. Recalls on medications happen all the time, and they are also money-makers, vaccines have been recalled as well, including an RSV vaccine. Why in the world, if all vaccines ere not safe, would you say they wont recall them? Finally, if you don’t agree with the recommendation, choose not to vaccinate, there is a choice! It occurred to my mom long before the web or GR!

Yes, there’s a ton of info on the web about vaccines. Your link falsely claims children get 36 vaccines, printed it in a great big ad and any one in the public can go count their child’s record to see that was false. It never occurred to me RSV or rotovirus could so greatly harm my child, either, but it did. Does GR go into what can happen to a child if they contract those things? That a child can quickly die even during medical care?

Don’t you ever have anything else to offer than just Generation Rescue and Age Of Autism?

I agree, it is tiresome and it’s mutual.

Needa my daughter is the same, no medications, but perhaps there should be. She at six tried to jump out of my car, is so OCD that she insists on retakes ,like “take two”, she is usually mean, I walk on eggshells.Before KS she was as bright and happy as sunshine, after she started literally running from room to room and hitting into the walls, became demanding and her once always bright eyes occasionally cross, then it’s like “watch out”. Yes she can be lovely, but not for long. I asked you this, because it’s the story I’ve shared with other KS moms, those that tell the truth have experienced the same changes in personality,it does something to their brain. I haven’t looked into the cerebral vasculopathy in Kawasaki children, but intend to.

Well, I’m sure this wont be too tiresome, right in that article provided says “mercury poisoning, when undetected, is often diagnosed as a psychiatric disorder….” the implication of what this article is saying is in fact had the mercury poisoning been detected, they would have had the psychiatric diagnosis (DSM) of autism.
Thanks for clarifying that autism and mercury poisoning are 2 different things. Now I know my child does not have mercury poisoning, and neither do I since the one doctor (mainstream) thought to test me too.

Well, right in that article provided says “mercury poisoning, when undetected, is often diagnosed as a psychiatric disorder….” the implication of what this article is saying is in fact had the mercury poisoning been detected, they would have had the psychiatric diagnosis (DSM) of autism.
Thanks for clarifying that autism and mercury poisoning are 2 different things. Now I know my child does not have mercury poisoning, and neither do I since the one doctor (mainstream) thought to test me too.

Sandy said, “It also get’s tiresome when others think they know what treatments will work for everyone with autism.” I don’t know anyone tho thinks they know what will work for *everyone* with autism. And I haven’t seen any posts here implying that.

“Your link falsely claims children get 36 vaccines…” Count them for yourself on the CDC’s schedule at http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_0-6yrs_schedule_pr.pdf Keep in mind that the MMR and the DPT (or DTaP) are each 3 vaccines in one.

“Don’t you ever have anything else to offer than just Generation Rescue and Age Of Autism?” Actually, I’ve posted links to various sites. And the paper “Autism a Novel Form of Mercury Poisoning” was writted way before Generation Rescue even existed. It just happens to be reprinted at the GR site.

Barbaraj and Needa, your descriptions of your children are so interesting. Just curious, do you know whether some people with KS benefit from chelation to remove the mercury, or supplements such as Glutathione and vitamin B-12?

I did count those vaccines, but you’d count them as GR list them on the ad, which include pre natal flu jabs along with additional flu jabs as well as Hep A jabs. yes, there could be 36, but on probably the majority of vaccine records, there isn’t 36 and there isn’t 36 on my kids records, either. You post 358 comment implied “It gets to be really tiresome when so many people have no idea what autism is or how to treat it and yet are so sure that they know what it isn’t and what doesn’t cause it, and are so sure that everyone reporting experiences not in step with their preconceptions are delusional or mistaken.” You’re not really talking about autism, are you? But it seems you have the answers to what it is and how to treat it since people are tiresome to you.

Doesn’t matter when GR was founded, which was 2005, GR includes that article to it’s site which probably goes right along with February 2005, J.B. Handley falsely stated on a TV interview that the notion of autism is mythical, stating that it is a misdiagnosis for mercury poisoning. He also claimed that autism did not exist before thimerosal was put in vaccines, and that chelation therapy can cure autism in two years or less. Handley recently stated that autistic adults “don’t exist.”

What you posted was saying autism and mercury poisoning are two different things (and they are) and that vaccines are causing mercury poisoning, not autism, and it seems GR founder also believes this.

You’re talking about mercury poisoning, many of the rest are talking about autism. My kid has autism, not mercury poisoning.

Thanks again for the enlightening link. Everyone should read it so they can fully understand what you’re representing.

Mr. Wonderful, your Reuters article is a press release from the National Autism Association. The “$29 – $50 million” figure comes from Generation Rescue, and it is in error. The two geniuses at GR who “investigated” Offit’s compensation are aware of their error, but don’t care. Offit’s actual compensation was about $6 million (far less after taxes). The NAA press release contains several significant lies. Example: Offit did not vote to include RotaTeq in the Vaccines for Children program in 2006 – at that point he had not been a voting member for three years. Offit did not sell the patent to Merck – CHOP owned the patent, not Offit. And Offit is a pediatrician who treats all children, including ones with autism.

Do you really believe CHOP would fabricate information about formaldehyde on its website because Paul Offit works there? Instead of spinning wild conspiracy theories, why don’t you just check CHOP’s information against other sources? Or is every scientist in the world covering up CHOP’s little scam?

Formaldehyde is a natural by product of single carbon metabolism. CHOP is not making that up. A DTap SHOT contains .1 mg of FA. The same info can be found on the manufacturer’s website and other places. A banana contains about 15 mg of FA. Call Chiquita. ; -)

In large enough doses, Mercury causes extreme physical disability and even death.

Twyla, is the degree of disability brought on by mercury poisoning associated with dose?

NewsBeat
So Formaldehyde is in the DTaP! Another something else, sigh! Is it put in because it is part of a protein or just put in for perservative purposes?

Is a banana ingested or injected?

It’s trace amounts in the vaccines. Banana’s have potassium and you eat that and it’s also injected in larger anounts than trace.
The very small amount of formaldehyde that is left over in the vaccines that are given to kids is less than the amount naturally found in children and much less than that amount safely given to animals in research studies.

NE,

Again, formaldehyde is naturally produced in very small amounts in our bodies as a part of our normal everyday metabolism and causes us no harm. Formaldehyde can also be found in furniture, fire retardants in pajamas and mattresses, or the thousands of chemicals used in household cleaner’s antiseptics, medicines, cosmetics, dish-washing liquids, fabric softeners, shoe-care agents, carpet cleaners, glues and adhesives, lacquers, paper, plastics, and some types of wood products. A major source of formaldehyde that we breathe everyday is found in smog in the lower atmosphere. Automobile exhaust from cars without catalytic converters or those using oxygenated gasoline also contain formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is produced by cigarettes and other tobacco products, gas cookers, and open fireplaces. Used as a preservative in some foods, such as some types of Italian cheeses, dried foods, fish and frozen vegetables.

Formaldehyde that is injected IM quickly cross links with proteins, so it is unlikely that any reaches the bloodstream. Additionally, the half-life of FA in blood is 1.5 minutes. Every cell in your body makes formaldehyde. It circulates in our blood naturally.

I don’t want to argue about what is in a vaccine or what is not.

All I know is that my son and daughter were harmed by a vaccine – the whooping cough vaccine! More precise the Boosters of the whooping cough vaccine!

I would like to know why my children are different from the rest of the population. And while that questions is really being researched I think it is preudent that the medical people have more training about vaccine reactions (right now they are not) and to be more SENSITIVE to and Knowlegable of (which right now they are not) vaccine reactions.

For those already damanged it would be good if real research and training of doctors on how to treat immune disorders would be to me common sense.
Even that is not going on right now, can you beleive that?

Sandy does your kid have any problems with strange like fevers, or upset stomachs, or breathing problems, or low oxygen stuff???? Just wonder?

ANB
First of all the link I sent said nothing about formaldehyde. I read it twice to make sure.

So you are saying Reuters would carry a story without checking the facts? They wouldn’t have been around for over 150 years printing libelous articles.
And I don’t believe Reuters issues press releases from NAA or any other source without stating that it is in fact a press release.

“Offit did not sell the patent to Merck – CHOP owned the patent, not Offit.”
Then why did they pay him any rolalties, whether it was 6 million or 29 to 50.?
The article said “Offit’s share
of a royalty sale for the Rotateq vaccine”. It didn’t say he was the sole patent holder.
So if CHOP was a co patent holded they would also be making some major dollars from the royalties.

Sandy,
Where did Bananas and potassium sneak into the conversation?

ANB
“Formaldehyde that is injected IM quickly cross links with proteins, so it is unlikely that any reaches the bloodstream.”
And you know this how?
What you are saying is that the formaldehyde links with proteins right at the injection site?
Since all tissue cells are connected to capillaries, some of the formaldehyde would have to get into the bloodstream.

Rick, AKA mr. wonderful,

Yes I know who you are!! ANB and Sandy where responding to NE’s post # 369. Sandy is right it potassium is found in Bananas and is directly IVed potassium cloride.

Mr. Wonderful rick,

How do you formaldehyde level increase isn’t from other sources then vaccines?

Needa~ I’m curious, did they give your child the Pertusus singly to know it was that vaccine? If he had the DPT, I’m just wonder how you’d know which the reaction was from?

I’m not sure why you’d wonder about his medical things if not to some how connect them to vaccines? It has already been offered with w linked article that mercury poisoning and autism are 2 different things. But at the risk of being boring, here goes.

He’s always had high fevers, when you knew the cause and many we never knew what caused the fever and the only symptom was the fever. 2 ear infection and 2 strep throats. He never had any breathing issues until he had RSV and after that was cleared up (and again effected going back to day care and work) my son had to be nubulized every winter or for every cold. He’s had severe diarrhea and I know when it started, but he has also had rotovirus. I’m not sure about anyone else’s kid with autism, but my kid could have a broken bone and you’d never know it looking at his reaction. Show him a spider, you’ll get a real good reaction. If he’s ever had an upset stomach, he can ignore it just as he does for the need for sleep, eating or drinking or acknowledging your presence. If he didn’t have those fevers, I’d had no clue he was sick at all. I wouldn’t know if he’s ever had a head ache, either. He’s also one of those percentages of kids which rarely is a topic, that never sleeps and that started at birth and is a progress on going. Try dealing with all of autism and little sleep as a parent. My son has other medical things going on, however the only one I do attribute to autism is his lack of sleep. I can go on more about him, right from the start and he does have an interesting story, but I shortened it on purpose.

Sandy, are the fevers rare in autism? I know with my KS daughter she often has fevers, she’s chemically sensitive and can’t walk across a play field that’s been sprayed without getting a fever.
You are right, we all have so much we could tell, we’d all need a chapter/novel section.
Twyla, no I don’t think chelation would be the answer for KS, whatever causes the damage is very “hit and run’…aneurysms that resolve, and now this new mention of “resolved cerebral vascuolopathy”, which would explain the sad changes in personality. As with autism I’m suspecting there are different levels of damage. I guess, believe, think…that KS is caused by the action of a toxic metal/chemical and a virus..much like reyes and aspirin..a chemical against chemical or chemical against virus works in some synergestic way as to create a toxic syndrome.

barbaraj~ maybe it’s just me, but I separate the medical from autism. The only way autism comes to play is my son’s behaviors of mouthing puts him at a higher risk of just being sick. I have no idea if fevers are rare to begin with any kid, do you know? How would anyone know?

Just input to KS and chelation, one would first have to determine if heavy metals were present, and also that chelation regardless is an agent and why use it if there isn’t heavy metals? Chelation hasone purpose and one purpose only, remving heavy metals.

Hey Dig This,
Not wild speculation by desperate parents. Not some quack doctor.
Peer reviewed, an epidemiological study at a prestigious medical center.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T44-4WXS9X8-10&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=mlkt&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=15f7de1120144e473139ab70f7014730
Annals of Epidemiology
Vol. 19, No. 9 ABSTRACTS (ACE)
September 2009: 651–680
HEPATITIS B VACCINATION OF MALE NEONATES AND AUTISM
CM Gallagher, MS Goodman, Graduate Program in Public
Health, Stony Brook University Medical Center, Stony Brook, NY

PURPOSE: Universal newborn immunization with hepatitis B vaccine was recommended in 1991; however, safety findings are mixed. The Vaccine Safety Datalink Workgroup reported no association between hepatitis B vaccination at birth and febrile episodes or neurological adverse
events. Other studies found positive associations between
hepatitis B vaccination and ear infection, pharyngitis, and
chronic arthritis; as well as receipt of early intervention/
special education services (EIS); in probability samples of
U.S. children. Children with autistic spectrum disorder
(ASD) comprise a growing caseload for EIS. We evaluated
the association between hepatitis B vaccination of male
neonates and parental report of ASD.

METHODS: This cross-sectional study used U.S. probability
samples obtained from National Health Interview Survey
1997–2002 datasets. Logistic regression modeling was used to
estimate the effect of neonatal hepatitis B vaccination on
ASDrisk amongboys age 3–17 years with shot records, adjusted
for race, maternal education, and two-parent household.

RESULTS:Boyswho received the hepatitis B vaccine during
the first month of life had 2.94 greater odds for ASD (nZ31
of 7,486; OR Z 2.94; p Z 0.03; 95% CI Z 1.10, 7.90)
compared to later- or unvaccinated boys.Non-Hispanicwhite
boys were 61%less likely to haveASD(ORZ0.39; pZ0.04;
95% CIZ0.16, 0.94) relative to non-white boys.

CONCLUSION: Findings suggest that U.S. male neonates
vaccinated with hepatitis B vaccine had a 3-fold greater risk
of ASD; risk was greatest for non-white boys.

MOMOF3
Post 369
September 16, 2009 at 9:48 am(369) Ne says:
NewsBeat
So Formaldehyde is in the DTaP! Another something else, sigh! Is it put in because it is part of a protein or just put in for perservative purposes?

Is a banana ingested or injected?

AND that is why I asked where the bananas came from.

?

September 16, 2009 at 10:01 am(370) Sandy says:
It’s trace amounts in the vaccines. Banana’s have potassium and you eat that and it’s also injected in larger anounts than trace.
The very small amount of formaldehyde that is left over in the vaccines that are given to kids is less than the amount naturally found in children and much less than that amount safely given to animals in research studies.

You guys do realize that formaldehyde and potassium are not the same think don’t you?

And the stuff found in bananas is not the same as potassium cloride. Potassium cloride is used in among other things, lethal injection.

Rick~ that’s an interesting study, 1997 – 2002, which would include those years Thimerosal was in vaccines- so as previously stated by a link to a enlightening article, quite possibly they were in fact mercury poisoned and don’t have autism at all, but since they were looking at records of ages between 3 – 17, can you tell me how other vaccines the children had wouldn’t also factor in? How did they single out just that one vaccine? What were the ages of onset and wouldn’t this then debunk the MMR theory?

Also about that banana. Aluminum salts isn’t the same as an aluminum can either but people still compare the two all the time. Are you suggesting that one comparison is ok, but the comparison to another isn’t?

Just my two cents, it would seem to indicate the earlier the exposure to thimerosal the more likely to be diagnosed with autism. I would think if we could find a similar study on preemies it would show an even larger number, delayed brain blood barrier..lower weight..Maybe? Thanks Mr. Wonderful..again interesting..

But as Twyla pointed out, it would be a misdiagnosis of autism. The correct diagnosis if anything, would be mercury poisoning.

actually Rick, Potassium is vital in the human body and oral potassium chloride is the common means to replenish it, although it can also be diluted and given intravenously (of course, in concentrations much lower than those used in executions). It can be used as a salt substitute for food, but due to its weak, bitter, unsalty flavor, it is usually mixed with regular salt (sodium chloride), for this purpose to improve the taste.

The other thing is that I have asked you questions that you have failed to answer.

Rick is making it up as he goes along.

So you are saying Reuters would carry a story without checking the facts? They wouldn’t have been around for over 150 years printing libelous articles. And I don’t believe Reuters issues press releases from NAA or any other source without stating that it is in fact a press release.

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. The information in the press release is demonstrably false. Read between the lines. It only quotes two people – NAA’s lawyer and the organization’s president. There is no attempt at balance. The estimate of Offit’s compensation comes from an editor at Generation Rescue – the same gentleman who once wrote that the Amish don’t vaccinate, and they don’t have autism.

I emailed Reuters two days ago asking why its names it attached to a defamatory press release. No answer so far.

The NAA release does carry the PR NEWSWIRE byline, so those in the know recognize it as a press release. It’s also notable the dateline reads Austin, TX, rather than the small Missouri town which is the HQ of the NAA.

Austin is home to Thoughtful House, where disgraced UK MD Andrew Wakefield hangs his hat these days. So it appears the press release is a ploy to keep the focus off of Wakers, and on Offit.

Wakefield – disgraced!
The stories in history are full of disgraced men —- or really great men. A great man before he is great man has much much striff. Anyone would be great if it was easy, but to be great you have to have character and Wakefield is a man of good character.

We will see which in the end. My bet is that Wakefield will be one of those great men!

Sandy
Thanks for telling me some about your son espcially since I have said so much about mine to you. I am sorry and I hope that things will improve. You should share more here.

You asked how I knew which vaccine it was in the DPT shot. Three times my son reacted to the DPT shot, each time getting worse. I did not know which one it was of the three! I was trying to get the doctor to at least split them up when the doctor insisted my son receive the third. Then after the stroke, and it was time for my son’s fourth DPT shot, the other doctor in the same practice handed me a handwritten note stating that my son was not to have another whooping cough shot, he also told me to make sure it did not happen, and he wrote it down in my son’s chart. My son was then given only the DT shot (something this doctor’s medical partner had told me previously did not exist) My son was fine, did not even run a bit of a fever!

Rick is making it up as he goes along?
I listed a quotable cite when I mentioned Offit’s 29 to 50 million dollar royalty check.
You said he didn’t hold the patent but then said he got about 6 mill in royalties.
Where is your figure coming from? Can you quote a viable source?
If he didn’t hold the patent, why did he get a royalty check?

Rick, ever read up on rotovirus? Ever read up on why Offit has an interest in creating a vaccine to begin with? No, my son didn’t die but some medical people made a pretty profit off him having rotovirus. They made some good money off him when he had RSV. It amazes me when people claim Offit is in it for money when that prevention vaccine meant other medical people wouldn’t have a profit, a child wouldn’t have to suffer or possibly die. It would make more sense profit-wise not to have prevention and pretend you’re looking for it while others rake in the bucks off a sick child. Of course just like autism, I never heard of RSV or rotovirus until my kid had it, and if your kid had either of the two, you might change your mind about the vaccine.
Do you make a profit at your job? It sounds to me like the autism community is really hung up on the income of people. Ever look at what a private therapist makes off a child with autism? ABA alone leaves families bankrupt. So do many DAN docs who only accept cash. If you’re going to pay attention to income, lets address not just one, but them all.

Sandy, did your son not get the roteteq vaccine?

Sandy said, “But as Twyla pointed out, it would be a misdiagnosis of autism. The correct diagnosis if anything, would be mercury poisoning.”

I never said anything of the sort, Sandy.

Regarding rotavirus, most people who come down with rotavirus simply fight it off with a mild case of diarrhea. I have never ever known anyone who had a problem with rotavirus. I have read of babies being hospitalized due to dehydration from rotavirus but this is rare, and with proper treatment they are o.k. Deaths from rotavirus in the U.S. are extremely rare.

The problem with the vaccines for rotavirus is they can cause a serious problem called intussusception, a form of intestinal obstruction in which a segment of the bowel prolapses. This requires surgery and can cause death.

The prior rotavirus vaccine RotaShield was taken off the market because of this complication. There have been reports of intussusception after the RotaTeq vaccine as well. http://healthcare.utah.edu/pharmacy/alerts/206.html

I’d prefer a case of diarrhea to intussusception.

Sandy, all disagreements aside, in the spirit of one mom to another — thanks for telling more about your son. The medical issues you describe are so common among people with autism, such as diarrhea. The diarrhea and high fevers indicate immune system issues which many believe play a big role in autism. Inflammation of the brain and nervous system may well be a significant factor for many people with autism.

You might be interested in these two books:

Healing the New Childhood Epidemics – Autism, ADHD, and Allergies – by Kenneth Bock, M.D.

Changing the Course of Autism – A Scientific Approach for Parents and Physicians – by Bryan Jepson, M.D.

I’m not pretending to be any kind of expert at all, just saying as a mom that based on what you describe, maybe you would find these books interesting.

regarding mercury, acrodynia, and kawasaki disease -

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/4/633

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=140434

But Twyla you did point it out. I never said you ‘said’ it. You did provide the link, and that is what the article stated. I figured since you sent the link you must had agreed with it. Just making sure you get the proper credit for the article you supplied here about mercury. Sorry if you don’t appreciate acknowledging your contrubution. I didn’t find it boring either.

More than 500,000 children under five years of age die from rotavirus infection each year and almost two million more become severely ill. In the United States, rotavirus causes about 2.7 million cases of severe gastroenteritis in children, almost 60,000 hospitalizations, and around 100 deaths each year.

Intussusception is 1 in every 2,000 to 3,000 but no reported deaths. Either way, the chances of landing in the hospital are far greater getting Rotavirus than the vaccine

Twyla~ How do you test for inflammation of the brain? How do you test for auto immune disorders? The medical issues I describe are so common among anyone, except for the sleep disorder, which is a 2-part diagnosis of onset and sustained sleep disorders. If your kid put everything in their mouth as my kid does, your kid is bound to be sick all the time too, autism or not. Maybe you’d be interested in all the tests my son has had?? He has had more medical issues than I listed, as I said, his story is interesting. I’d be betting most do not have medical records as large as we do.

Thanks for the book titles only his medical issues have been treated by main stream medical professionals with good progress. Those books address autism, which we also have professionals for that too and have also seen good progress. We kind of already found the approach which works well for my kid however, some autism aspects are just going to be there.

Sandy Did they test your child for his L-Carnitine levels? I am always very curious about that one?
And CPK levels were there any tests for that and if so how did it come out?

And did you read any where that there may be a link between rototeq and Kawasaki’s

No reported deaths from intussusception? I went to http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb and did a search for intussusception and death, and found 14 deaths due to intussusception were reported to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System.

You can argue about whether there is more risk from the disease or the vaccine, but to say there are no reported deaths is false. Intussusception can be fatal, especially if not treated promptly.

Sandy said, “But Twyla you did point it out. I never said you ’said’ it. You did provide the link, and that is what the article stated. I figured since you sent the link you must had agreed with it. Just making sure you get the proper credit for the article you supplied here about mercury. Sorry if you don’t appreciate acknowledging your contrubution.”

Sandy, that’s a bunch of bull and you know it. That’s why I won’t bother arguing with you any more. It’s just aggravating.

I’m not even sure which article you are refering to, but if it is “Autism – a Novel Form of Mercury Poisoning” – the title alone contradicts what you are saying. The article says, “this type of autism represents an unrecognized mercurial syndrome” and “mercury toxicity may be a significant etiological factor in at least some cases of regressive autism”. It’s not saying that the autism is a misdiagnosis, but that mercury may be a cause of some autism.

But there’s no point arguing with you any more. I knew there would be no point, and sure enough there isn’t.

Twyla~ the FDA alert you provided didn’t have any deaths included, but people do die from Intussusception itself. I was only commenting on the link you provided. If you want to be argumentative about the deaths, go for it but don’t accuse me of false anything when we were talking about the contents your link.

Now we can discuss VAERS, since you now brought that up. VAERS is not a confirmed reporting system, and any one can read the warnings of this related to vaccines right on the site itself. “no cause and effect relationship has been established.” “The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.” You have to click “I have read and understand the preceding statement” before you can go further into the site.
I could send in some bogus report and no one would be the wiser. But if you still want to be argumentative towards me, provide the case numbers so we all can see those 14 cases.

Actually, it’s not a bunch of anything. You probably didn’t realize exactly what was in that article and neither did GR or they surely wouldn’t be linked to it. I’m actually surprised that’s where you obtained it from. I’m sorry you don’t like the contents within it, but that is exactly what it states very early on at that.
What you said just prior to the link was “Mercury Poisoning documented the many similarities between autism and low level mercury poisoning.” The use of similarities was in interesting choice of words on your part considering the article stated “mercury poisoning, when ‘undetected’, is often diagnosed as a psychiatric disorder….” What then is it diagnosed as when detected? Article is in post number 358 for any who might want to read it again.

You’re the one arguing over a link you sent, I am not. I am communicating and I have never been rude to you as you have been to me, either. All I am doing is pointing out the very valid important information in that others may find valuable even if you do not.

Does anyone remember the piece on 20/20 about the foster grant company? Parents who lived near the plant had children with autism, even those that moved away from the plant continued to have children with autism, grandparents who had worked at the plant had grandchildren with autism. It was quite a mystery. Now we can look at it differently, mercury is the pollutant in the plastic industry. This was era ..maybe the late 70′s?
However we look at these issues, mercury keeps popping up in KS and autism, with vaccines, pollution, chemlawn, and..wasn’t lead based paint replaced with mercury in the 80′s? I’ve read that it’s been confirmed that there is synergy between testosterone and mercury, testosterone enhances mercury, it’s been found in large concentrations even among young athletes that suddenly die while playing at a sport. It does seem that this can’t be denied, yet it is, by the cdc the fda, the aap, and the dentists that put it in our teeth. What would happen if this was ever validated by all of them, a worldwide collapse, worse than the recent one? How can we answer to damaging an entire generation?

btw..has anyone here been noted on vaers…have your friends..kawasaki kids…autistic kids..I know you may not believe this..but it’s rare for effects to make it to vaers..if you see one..multiply it by a hundred..this info via my pediatrician..sure a few report erroneously, but for the most part the affected are silent..passive surveillance = underreporting……always!
I know too many damaged children..and too many have died ..we are ..at least the last time I looked..#34 for deaths under the age of five in the world..below croatia..we are doing a “lot” wrong..

VAERS doesn’t require reporting by a doctor, and most often it isn’t reported by one. It’s parent- reporting and if you have ever looked at each years reports, I doubt anyone left any reporting out. You don’t need doctors to report to VAERS, that wasn’t the idea of VAERS anyway and you can look at that site to see the stats on who does report.

Do you have the stats on how you come to multiply at by a hundred??

As someone else posted there isn’t one single generation effected or ‘damaged’ and there is no ‘we’ of blame. The environmental’s started many many generations ago. If it is mercury poisoning, detected early, there is recovery or near close to recovery with little long term effects, although many do remain with long term effects depending the type and amount of exposure.

Mercury keeps popping up in KS and autism, do you have the stats on that verses typical child who have had KS? Are you basing it on the entries on this blog or other autism sites? The numbers in the USA of KS are not that high to begin with and the most common other co morbid linked to autism is GI issues, not KS. Besides that, if we’re looking at a time period while vaccines contain Thimerosal, or after when only traces amounts are in some? Keeping in mind, not all vaccine had it to begin with? If we’re looking at this time period, and considering the Thimerosal alone in vaccines, all rates to anything it was blamed for should had dropped. Increasingly almost all health issues are not ever decreasing either. Every year there is more and more increases to about everything. The subsets here to be looking at is the generation prior to 2002, and then the generation there after. Overall, one would have to specify which set is being addressed since by 2002, all vaccines for all children changed. New parents addressing autism for their 2 or 3 year old today will not realize there are 2 different sets of kids people are talking about when it comes to the theory of mercury.

Sandy;
Do you know any of these test were done for your son?
L-Carnitine rates
or CPK indicates muscle being broken down and all mucsles – not just heart.
erythrocyte sedimentation rate, C-reactive protein or any SED rated to see if inflammation was involved.

By the way I never reported anything to VAERS. BY the time I found out about it. I just thought too much time had gone by already. It was invented though for cases just like my son’s, stroke – hospital visit- home with in hours- doctors deninig!

I think we should take Hg out of vaccines and put Pb in – I think it might not be as dangerous. But then they have AL too don’t they and it is not a heavy metal. Have there been any studies on the effects of aluminium on the KREBS Cycle, or mitochondria if breathed in or injected?

I listed a quotable cite when I mentioned Offit’s 29 to 50 million dollar royalty check.

You listed a PR NEWSWIRE press release by a notorious anti-vaccine interest group.

You said he didn’t hold the patent but then said he got about 6 mill in royalties.

The patent was held by CHOP. CHOP sold the patent to a third party, who sold it to Merck.

Where is your figure coming from? Can you quote a viable source?

Here ya go:

http://autism-news-beat.com/

The $6 million figure is arrived at by using a formula for compensation found on CHOP’s website. If you follow the link to LBRB, you’ll find that the NAA’s “investigators” concede the $6 million figure but, like you, don’t think it matters whether it was $6 million or $50 million, because it is somehow still wrong to pay people for their work.

If he didn’t hold the patent, why did he get a royalty check?

The $6 million was compensation for his work on a vaccine that has the potential to save 2,000 young lives a day.

He asked to quote a viable source, AutismNewsBeat, not your own site. How is your site a viable source? It merely mentions your opinion.

If one looks closely at the VAERS reports, and there different sections for each year, 1) count how many reports were in the first year of reporting, and since we’re still in 2009, look at 2008. A more accurate statement might be for every one person who didn’t report, there were 100 plus that did. Also, reading these reports, side effects reported often are as little as a fever. VAERS was invented for any reporting side effect, be it mild or severe, and that is what makes up the bulk of that data.

Has your child been tested for CPK, and believe L-Carnitine is the treatment, Carnitine levels is what is looked at and I believe most of those causes are genetic. I of course do not attribute the medical to my child’s autism nor do I believe any of his diagnosed medical conditions caused or played a part in his autism. As I provided earlier, his autism was noticed at birth although I cant remember if it was before or after the circumcision but I am pretty sure it was within hours of his birth and before that procedure which is about the only thing medical he had done other than being born. As I said, he was tested for many many things and I can look those up, or go into more detail about his medical issues but again, I’m not sure what you’re looking for or trying to determine by it. Interestingly, however my son was presenting, they thought he had cystic fibrosis as well and looking at those symptom’s, I can see why there was concern and as I already said, his breathing issues only started after he had RSV. RSV may have concealed other disease symptom’s. Very few of his medical issues were treated by his primary peds doctor, either. His peds doc is good but she doesn’t know everything and she thought he drank too much juice causing his GI issues, and a few goofy dentists considered his damaged teeth bottle rot, of course never meeting a kid like mine who ate his crib. They were goofy since the teeth damage only effected 3 teeth. My kid was particular which teeth he bit with ha ha. I found other people for second opinions, and yes it does happen and docs don’t know everything and both juice and bottle rot were incorrect. He needed to go to different specialists and I have to say, an every day peds GI doc (not as famous as Wakefield) was the one who ordered most of the interesting tests I never heard of and made many of the diagnosis.

The sleep disorder is the only thing I do attribute possibly linked to autism, but not as a contributing factor, just a symptom of.

Rick,

Your Stony Brook University Medical Center study is by the same group that gave us Hepatitis B triple series vaccine and developmental disability in US children aged 1-9 years last year.

From the abstract:

This study investigated the association between vaccination with the Hepatitis B triple series vaccine prior to 2000 and developmental disability in children aged 1-9 years (n = 1824), proxied by parental report that their child receives early intervention or special
education services (EIS). National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey 1999-2000 data were analyzed and adjusted for survey design by
Taylor Linearization using SAS version 9.1 software, with SAS callable SUDAAN version 9.0.1. The odds of receiving EIS were approximately
nine times as great for vaccinated boys (n = 46) as for unvaccinated boys (n = 7), after adjustment for confounders. This study found statistically significant evidence to suggest that boys in United
States who were vaccinated with the triple series Hepatitis B vaccine, during the time period in which vaccines were manufactured with thimerosal, were more susceptible to developmental disability than were unvaccinated boys.

He asked to quote a viable source, AutismNewsBeat, not your own site. How is your site a viable source? It merely mentions your opinion.

If you follow the links in my blog entry, you will see that the $6 million figure is derived from applying a compensation formula posted on CHOP’s website.

The NAA “investigators” arrived at their figures after looking at how other institutions compensate their scientists. They also didn’t take into account that the proceeds were split among three recipients.

Sorry about the teeth, and you getting accused of sticking a bottle in your baby’s mouth and just walking off, when it was not the truth and your son had other issues!

How did they determine a new born baby had autism? What was it that gave them a clue as soon as he was born? That is so sad to have to face this on what is suppose to be such a wonderful day?

I fail to see how much the man makes or the amount of royalties one has had really concretely points in the direction of cause. It’s like saying the Ford Motor CO. makes a zillion dollars and intentionally put bad tires on their cars, when in fact the cause wasn’t them at all and they were not the ones who actually produced the tires.
Offit, or anyone else, may have had created a vaccine, but they are not the ones who mass produce them, in which errors can be made but besides that, clinical studies often do not include every single person gene pool or possible drug interactions. many times those things are accidental found after a release of a new drug.
Going at financial’s simply does not prove mechanism of cause. The man could make 30 K a year and still be at fault for all that matters.

oops..I did not mean to say multiply..in the conversation it was add 100 not multiply..to each reported case.. few report..very few..this would imo suggest..if there were 6 cases reported ..there would be 600 across the vaccinated world..sounds a bit off to me , as well…however, I don’t doubt it’s a high number..but can’t really guess if it’s 5 times..6 times..or more..that don’t report..message is there is “considerable underreporting”..

Hey, his birth was a wonderful day. Autism doesn’t take away the joy of him as a child. It almost makes me love him all the more and appreciate him even more.

I didn’t know he had autism at birth, I realized all the things of that day and the days and months that followed, and finally once we found out just what autism was, that’s when it was first noticed. It started with his crying and not being able to be calmed. The first social issues really started when I sent him to the nursery and every single nurse brought him back. Could hear him screaming as they wheeled him back. For some odd reason, I knew that screaming baby was mine. I couldn’t believe all these nurses with much more experience than me couldn’t calm my baby and as he rolled into the room and I spoke and I touched him, he stopped screaming. Sure did boost my maternal instincts were right where they should be and those darn nurse must not of had any. I never bothered to think how they must had felt. He just didn’t much care for socializing with all those other babies. And that’s the way it always was, not one person could ever comfort him. He had particular habits right from the start too, like which side I held him on. He was an under reactive baby and an over reactive baby and all to specific things. Not that I am OCD (one never knows) but being a new mom, I wrote everything down he did and I asked other mom’s if their kid ever this or that? Besides my own records I kept, along with having the same peds doc to this day which turns out wondered for a long time (when requesting medical records, request doctors notes too) my kid didn’t have regressive onset. His autism was infantile onset then determined there at birth but those sings are so mild as an infant they can be easily explained away, and I easily accepted the explanations. He’s 2 years delayed at most things but oddly, at a week old when he was just falling asleep, he giggled. I had heard of babies smiling but a giggle was really weird. I was at the time seriously wondering about reincarnation or possessions and wondered if I should reconsider my beliefs. He could also hold his head up for very long periods of time. My baby slept during the day, but come dark, he knew it and to this day he cant sleep when it’s dark easily and special lighting didn’t help a bit. Day light savings also messes with his sleep pattern. Day cares were interesting with him too, when they forgot his little routines. He had to sleep on his belly. The first day at daycare, she says “OMG he has not slept at all and all he did was cry”. I asked did you put him on his tummy? Nope. I don’t care that babies should only sleep on their backs, mine just wouldn’t. Most babies probably cried them selves to sleep. Not my kid nor did he sleep that night lol.

As my child got older, those explanation were much less easily accepted and about everyone was shrugging and saying “you knooooow”. He wasn’t a handsome baby with odd behaviors any more. He was still a cutie, but more noticed was the things he was doing or not doing.

I keep looking for an edit button..I suppose add 100 would make more sense..my mistake..sorry…there must be actual stats out there somewhere giving us the real numbers? In discussion years ago,when I had my daughter with that seven day high fever, I was thrown from doc to health department to Johns Hopkins, I assure you I never made it to vaers. My friend who sued hopkins for the death of her baby five days after receiving a dpt never made it to vaers either…

barbaraj, I agree that in my experience — from what I’ve heard from other parents etc. — which admittedly is “anecdotal” — most vaccine reactions are not reported.

My first two kids came down with chicken pox before the varicela vaccine existed — uncomfortable for them, but a fleeting illness, no longterm consequences. My youngest child received the varicela vaccine at the same time as the MMR — when the varicela vaccine was still fairly new, and before I had any concerns about vaccines. She had a febrile seizure a few days later, and then high fevers for about a month. She was fortunate — she recovered without neurological injury. Her reaction was milder than some, and her body was able to recover its equilibrium. It was so fortunate that we did not give her any other vaccines at the same time, such as DTaP or a flu shot containing thimerosal.

It did not occur to me at the time that the vaccines could have caused this. Certainly nobody suggested this to me, and the reaction was not reported. It was not until years later, when I read about the MMRV combo increasing the risks of seizures and autism that I realized this was most likely a vaccine reaction. Nobody in our extended family has ever had a seizure — no genetic history to account for this. And, although ever since then she had a tendency towards high fevers, she never had another seizure.

I was amazed when I went to the CDC web site in Nov. 2007 to find that the CDC acknowledged that the MMR and the DPT shots can increase the risk of febrile seizures. They referred to a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine. Yet the CDC web site said that febrile seizures are nothing to worry about. But doesn’t this give credence to those who report more severe vaccine reactions which start with high fever and seizures? And if the MMR or DPT alone can cause seizures, isn’t it plausible that when you add additional vaccines to the mix there is increased chance of a more serious adverse reaction? Isn’t it also plausible that some kids are more susceptible than others to more serious reactions?

I wrote about this at http://www.ageofautism.com/2007/11/mmr-chicken-pox.html

I can no longer find the information on increased risk of febrile seizures at the CDC web site.

ANB
“The $6 million was compensation for his work on a vaccine that has the potential to save 2,000 young lives a day.”
Really? Before RoteTeq 2000 infants a day were dieing from gastroenteritis? That’s 730,000 kids a year. How come we never heard about this pandemic? Even if it was only half of you WAG, that would still be over a third of a million kids a year.
Did I miss a headline somewhere?

It is often assumed that only 10% of reactions are reported. (This committee has heard testimony about persons being actively discouraged from reporting, even if they are aware of the reporting system.) Thus, if there have been some 80,000 serious adverse reactions associated with 20 million doses of vaccine, the risk is about 4 in 1000. (This calculation depends on many assumptions.

Moreover, many of the patients experiencing temporally associated adverse reactions had simultaneously received more than one vaccine. Nevertheless, a better estimate has not been put forth.) It should be noted that a less than 1 in 1,000,000 purely hypothetical risk might be used to justify costly federal regulations on highly useful products that are used voluntarily.

In nearly 20% of VAERS reports, the first of eight listed side effects suggests central nervous system involvement. Examining the first listed effects shows about 4,600 involving such symptoms as prolonged screaming, agitation, apnea, ataxia, visual disturbances, convulsions, tremors, twitches, an abnormal cry, hypotonia, hypertonia, abnormal sensations, stupor, somnolence, neck rigidity, paralysis, confusion, and oculogyric crisis.

Quote from Jane Orient MD

Sandy,
“I fail to see how much the man makes or the amount of royalties one has had really concretely points in the direction of cause.”
I don’t remember antone saying receiving royalties lead to cause.
It might just lead to loyalty to vaccines and vaccine makers.
For example, If I invented an improved Finigen Pin for automobiles and sold the patent to Ford for 6 or 29 or 50 million dollars, I probably wouldn’t go out and buy a Chevy or do a commercial for Honda.

ANB
“Your Stony Brook University Medical Center study is by the same group that gave us Hepatitis B triple series vaccine and developmental disability in US children aged 1-9 years last year.”
So you base your opinions the same way you fill your plate at a Chinese buffet? Take the items you like and pass on the ones you don’t like.
I always pass on the ones with broccoli.

Barbaraj~ depending on the year, VAERS wouldn’t had been around when your kids had vaccines. If once looks at the first entry on VAERS, to the last and do a little subtraction, since the numbers do not start with numeral 1, one can easily see how many reports were sent to VAERS and if one reads them, not that a mild reaction is nothing to sneeze at, but many of them are just a fever. many also have no doctor confirmation. And again, when one reads data from VAERS they have to consider the statement “no cause and effect relationship has been established.” “The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.” Anyone can send in a report, and that’s all it ends up being anyway, just a site which people offer al the time with little value to proof of anything or any relation to vaccines and autism.

Other than the side effects of vaccines, as what your daughter had, did it lead then to autism for her?

As for the chickenpox, which there is more to consider than just a mild childhood illness, since my child displayed autism before any vaccine and his behaviors being odd, one is he picks at every scratch and big bite until they are huge holes and ends up with scars. I’m sure he would had faired well getting the chickenpox, only his skin wouldn’t due to his own behaviors. At the time he was ready for that vaccine, it was very new and I was quite reluctant since the one RSV vaccine had been recently been recalled just a few weeks of him being able to have it and now here was another new vaccine. I researched, asked many questions and decided he would have it and he didn’t have any reactions to it.
This being an example of two very different risks and choices of two different people, and how it ended up being the right choice for my child due to his behaviors.

Mr. Wonderful –

Offit is saying a lot more than “use the vaccine I made because it works well.” In fact, he’s not saying that at all.

He’s saying “vaccines save lives, and if you choose not to have your children vaccinated you’re placing them at terrible risk.”

He’s also saying “those people who claim that vaccines are a major cause of an autism epidemic are flat out wrong — or deliberately lying — and I have proof.”

I suppose saying these things could potentially increase his income. But it also increases his risk of being attacked verbally and physically.

Assuming the guy is sane (and I believe he is), the only reason to say what he is saying is because he believes it to be true.

Lisa

Barbaraj~ did you happen to notice who makes up most of the reporting of VAERS? Any one can discourage reporting, but you need no ones permission to report. I can down load the form and send it off today. What you stated then is an example of parents just following what they are told and not going a step further, and that does need to change only because it is a fact not every doctor is on the same page as you.

Lisa,
You claim Offit says “those people who claim that vaccines are a major cause of an autism epidemic are flat out wrong — or deliberately lying — and I have proof.”
He has PROOF? Where? Has he published this in JAMA?
Has he presented his proof to an Congressional committee investigating autism?
Then you say “Assuming the guy is sane (and I believe he is), the only reason to say what he is saying is because he believes it to be true.”
That just went from PROOF to BELIEF. I think that Wakefield, the Geiers, Bernie Rimland etc, etc, etc are saying what they believe to be the truth.

Just for the record Sandy, we still have four little ones at home, there are seventeen years between my oldest son and my only daughter. Vaers was not around for my oldest son, however it was there for my daughter on down. In the young group we have birth years, 1996,2000,2004,2007…My oldest son has crohn’s and my only daughter had Kawasaki. Add to this, my husband had three, all older than mine, and there are grandchildren in the mix his first wife died his next to oldest daughter has breast cancer and is a des child her child born 1999 is aspergers. The sickest of the youngest group is 2004/asthma, the 1996 is the one who reacted for four months with stomach pain and diarhea after his mmr. The 2000 lost speech and hasn’t hugged since his dtp, he has his speech back and is diagnosed with nothing, however..there is something not quite right, hugely overweight in a family of thin people and has incredible meltdowns that put us all at times in danger..the 2007 has never had any vaccines at all. The 2004 received the hib with bacillus cereus..in 2007 ( yes we waited that long to get his first shots)Offering this to straighten this out a bit..and I’ve never said a word to vaers.

Maybe the VAERS doesn’t get all adverse vaccine events is that most people don’t know it exists.
It isn’t advertised on TV like pharmaceutical products are.
Even if your doctor knows about it, have you ever had a doctor give you a shot and then tell you that if you have a bad reaction to the vaccine you should report it to VAERS?

Barbaraj~ I wasn’t sure of the year of births of course. On one side of the family, my mom’s, there is one cousin who early on more than likely had autism (he’s passed away), and some of my cousins kids have autism as well. One aunt, had she lived a different era, probably would of had the diagnosis too ( passed away years ago) Nothing on my dads side. However, the most I see of my sons behaviors is with his dad. I had never seen anyone do some of the things he does and of course thought huh, odd and nothing more. No one hardly ever talked about their childhood, and his mother is just like him. Once my child was born and became older, the 2 are exactly alike and have same near behaviors even though they had spent little time together, so it’s not learned behavior from each other.

I never had the child who regressed, so I can only imagine what it’s like to have a child typically coming along and then regress. It must put a different sort of feeling on it than I have experienced. Where as some may had once had those things within their child, for a lot of those things came very late or hasn’t yet come at all for us. Just as it’s difficult for me to know exactly what it would be like for regression, I’m sure it’s difficult just the same to imagine never having that hug ever, never playing peekaboo, early on reacting poorly to other little tiny Kids his age and way sooner than most of course having people ask questions about your kid that’s hard to answer, I never had those developmental milestones or typical parenting to know what it’s like or to hear a word from my kid for years and mommy was the last word he said, probably on purpose knowing him. Most times he’s called me by my formal name.

Regardless of the parent of a child who regressed, or a parent such as me whose child just didn’t progress right from the start, we’re both dealing with many of the same things and caring the best we can for our children and we all are looking for our answers.

Go count the numbers of VAERS reports. Seems to me Alot of people knew/ know about it.

Before RotaTeq, 2,000 infants a day were dying from gastroenteritis? … Did I miss a headline somewhere?

“As of 31 March 2006, the World Health Organization estimates that globally 527,000
(475,000 – 580,000) child deaths occurred during 2004 due to rotavirus infection.”

http://tinyurl.com/4tmtt3

It’s easy to miss something that you’re not looking for.

Has your SBU Medical Center study been published in a peer reviewed journal? All I can find is the abstract. It looks like a poster presentation.

You know what gave me a whole different perspective of life? Was the many trips to the children’s hospital to have my son see his ENT. Seeing all those children and what the parents have to go through is far worse then what I have ever had or gone through. Those parents not knowing if their children are going to live to be adults and if they are even going to make it through the year. Yes, autism is hard, but what those children and parents have gone through and going through, will never compare to what I am.

You are right, Ssandy,we all are after the same result, helping our kids find their way in this world. I am admittedly obsessed with knowing “why”? I hold out hope that it will stop, for future children, if we “just know why maybe we can fix it”.
The unhuggable one, does hug his baby brother, yet tells the five year old that he is stupid, ugly and fat (he’s not any of these things), he has melted down on parking lots, leaving me no choice but to get him, he weighs about 125lbs,and hope the others stay safe ( a little easier now with the 13 yr old) Yet at times he’s so sweet, is very talented, draws beautifully , does well in school subjects..who knows ? He has made one friend who is very much like him . He has only had speech therapy, intensive one on one, and he speaks fine, has never said, “I’m sorry”, won’t do it. I’m not sure if anyone has had this experience but he has three sets of front teeth? The baby ones were removed hoping for another set to come down to be pulled to allow for one permanent set. Could anything affect “teeth”? He’s had such a bad time with teeth, pulpectomies galore.
In the family I know of no one in past generations that had problems. My husbands family has a twelve toe thing going on but it skipped my kids generation, however, his family has a different autoimmune disease for each of them, grandma wegeners vasculitis, aunts, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, hubby atherosclerosis,another aunt sarcoidosis. Interesting story with grandma’s wegeners, she was running the track two miles a day, a dog scratched her leg badly, she received her first dt shots, followed in two months by flu shot, she felt ill, was diagnosed and died in a month. She said before she died, that “damn flu shot is gonna kill me”. She was 65 yrs old.

BarbaraJ~ You know, I teen a year or 2 back died directly from the flu, never had the vaccine. They figured she had a severe allergic reaction to the actual virus itself to have died so quickly. Who knows, allergies could play a large role to the vaccine as well for some.

I can relate to the sorry. Anything that directly involves showing an emotions or getting emotions back at you, my kid wont say it. This includes I’m sorry’s to I love you’s. He’ll write it, he wont say it. Although my kid doesn’t show a lot of emotions towards others or that empathy, he shows it in other ways that I’ve learned to love. My kid is an extreme literal thinker, and academics is really difficult for him. he cant read well or write. I can also sort of relate to those teeth, in sense. I said before said babies get bottom teeth first but my kid got his top first. His GI issues started when he cut his first teeth and if you were to ask me, it seemed more like an allergic reaction to his teeth, every time he cut a tooth and they were really weird BM’s that didn’t stay at all in the diapers. Who knows if there’s something to that, I’m told I’m nuts by some docs Kids cant be allergic to their teeth.

I have high dreams and hopes for my son. As much as I’ve worked hard to provide therapies for him, he’s worked even harder during those therapies. I only provided him the means, he did all the hard work. I do hope for prevention also.

ANB
“//tinyurl.com/4tmtt3 It’s easy to miss something that you’re not looking for.”
Did you look at the chart of the top 11 countries with rotavirus deaths?
India is #1, with 122,000+ deaths.
China is #5 with 27,000 deaths.
The population of both countries is about the same, so why the disparagy in numbers?
Nigeria is #2 with 49,000 deaths.
Nigeria has 1.5 million people, India 1.1 billion.
That’s 1000 times as many people, so shouldn’t they have 1000 times as many deaths?
Could it be that something other than just the rotovirus figures into the deaths?

The population of both countries is about the same, so why the disparagy (sic) in numbers?

Oh, I dunno, maybe the difficult of getting accurate numbers out of China? Cleaner water? A more organized health care delivery system. What’s your point?

Apparently you thought “rotavirus” was CDC-speak for “tummy ache” and that nobody died from it. Are you going to move the goalposts now?

Again, what is your point?

And from what dark corner of internet did you learn that Nigeria has 1.5 million people? It’s the most populated country in sub-Saharan Africa. You are off by a factor of 80.

Well, I’m impressed: nearly 440 exchanges before back biting began!

What do you guys think? Does it make sense to take this debate to my forum? Or do you want to continue here?

ANB – please refrain from ultra-snarkiness, since it is certainly going to turn into a “gotcha” discussion that could go on for hundreds more interchanges.

Mr. Wonderful: I know you’re here and listening, so hope you’ll forgive me “speaking” on your behalf.

Lisa

Twyla,
“Your link falsely claims children get 36 vaccines…” Count them for yourself on the CDC’s schedule at http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_0-6yrs_schedule_pr.pdf Keep in mind that the MMR and the DPT (or DTaP) are each 3 vaccines in one.
Did you count the number of doses? According to the CDC the the MMR requires two doses and the DPT requires four. Add that to a yearly flu shot every year for the first six years and you’ve already got more than the 11 shots the chart shows at first glance. And most of the other vaccines listed require more than shot.

ANB
It wasn’t a dark corner of internet, it was my crappy typing.
My point was that it would seem that vaccines are not the only way to control diseases.
As the CDC advises in regard to the dreaded swine fluy, general hygene such as containing your coughs and sneezes, washing your hands and so forth.

disparity

Swine fluy?
Some one is moving the letters around on my keyboard again.

Lisa,
There is no need to ask for “forgiveness”. I didn’t consider there to be any back-biting.
I just considered the source and continued from there.

So you accidentally typed 1.5 million instead of 20 million, then you accidentally divided 1.1 billion by 1.5 million?

Whatever.

Rick~ Again, you have to count them as GR did. What’s even more interesting to that ad is GR didn’t count them that way to even come up with that figure. The MMR is counted as 1, not 6.

Again, you can not count the flu jab unless you have some evidence the majority get the flu jab or the Hep A, but even better count your own child’s vaccine schedule of which you can accruately make a statement about. Any parent can look at their own child’s records and that ad was false. You also cant include a possible a prenatal flu jab to a childhood schedule.

Mr. Wonderful — is your comment #440 directed at me? I was the one saying there are dozens of vaccines and for Sandy to count them on the CDC’s own schedule, as she had said that GR’s number is inflated. Not sure if there’s some confusion about who said what.

Lisa said about Dr. Paul Offit, “Assuming the guy is sane (and I believe he is), the only reason to say what he is saying is because he believes it to be true.”

He has financial motivations for defending vaccines. Not only has he profited from developing a vaccine, but according to CBS news “Offit holds in a $1.5 million dollar research chair at Children’s Hospital, funded by Merck.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/25/cbsnews_investigates/main4296175.shtml

He goes beyond saying that everyone should get their vaccines. He has said that 10,000 vaccines for a baby are safe. He is in total denial mode.

Plus, he completely trashes biomedical treatments for autism, even though he is not even an autism specialist. He is arrogant and scornful towards people who witnessed vaccine reactions and/or witnessed impovements with biomedical treatments.

But thanks, Lisa, for stepping in to keep the conversation civil! We can all get a bit heated up occasionally! Well, some more than others I suppose!

Nobody knows the actual incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines. This is one of the problems with our current program.

I have the impression — although I can’t prove it — that most people don’t report vaccine injuries to VAERS, for any of the following reaons:

- It does not occur to them that it was a vaccine reaction. We are told over and over that vaccines are safe. It’s just a little pin prick – no big deal.

- The doctor says it was not a vaccine reaction, either out of CYA because s/he fears anger, fallout from the admission that the vaccine could have caused a problem, or because the doctor is not well educated on vaccine injuries. It amazes me the number of stories I hear of babies having severe reactions, the doctor saying that it’s not the vaccine and insisting on more vaccines, and then a worse reaction occurs.

- The parent or individual thinks it is a vaccine reaction but has never heard of VAERS.

- The parent or individual thinks it is a vaccine reaction, knows about VAERS, but thinks it will be a hopeless uphill battle to prove a vaccine injury. (Are there fingerprints, security camera video, ballistics? No.)

We need a better vaccine surveillance system. Reporting by the doctors should be mandatory. These adverse events should be investigated and studied, instead of the reports just sitting on a list someplace where people like Sandy can say, “Oh, that means nothing — most of them didn’t really happen!”

ANB
I didn’t accidentally type 1.5 million instead of 20 million.
According to both the CIA World Factbook and Wikipedia, the population of Nigeria is around 150 million people.
So all I did was drop a couple of zeros.

Just about every one has a vested interests in something. DAN doctors, RDI and ABA also have a vested interests what they believe in and do for a living and just like vaccines, DAN docs RDI and ABA doesn’t have the same benefits for all, but they all have a vested interest in it.

Twyla, civil would mean not including me again into something I certainly never said. I never said those reports on VAERS never really happened and it’s unfair of you to post that I did. Post 424 was to Barbaraj. I do agree there needs to be a better confirmed reporting system, but the system as is does mean nothing, unless you can show me it’s anything more than just a reporting system of which anyone can submit to with out documentation but if one looks at the reports, a fever of below 104 is often all that’s listed.My comments were about that site, not about you directly or in the least.

Again, that is not communication and the only function that has to is create animosity but the neat thing is, people can read that I never said that and see where that animosity generates from and in the end results in people not wanting to share. I have not been rude or disrespectful towards you or anyone else for that matter, if you disagree with my opinions just say so or just don’t bother reading them. It’s your choice what you read and what you post. No one is twisting your arm to read or make comments.

Sandy, Why do I have to count them as GR did? I am not involved with GR.
I was counting injections, the way the CDC does. The MMR is counted as 1, not 6.
The MMR is THREE separate vaccines incorporated into one injection. A parent can request separate Measles, Mumps and Rubella shots that would produce the same immunity as the combined form.
And since we are talking about the CDC vaccine schedule, and most of the sheeple parents follow the CDC Gospel, the kiddies will be getting the yearly flu shot and the Hep A.
What if, just what if, they took all the various vaccines on the aforementioned CDC schedule and put them into one hellofa big needle and gone everything over in one visit?
Could we say that kids only get ONE vaccine between birth and kindergarten?

“We’re from the Government and we’re here to help you.” – Ronald Reagan

Does anyone wish that the vaccines did not cause autism? That may sound silly, but I would rather think it was genetic, out of my control, but it wasn’t out of my control, and I DID know better. I allowed the medical community to bully me, all the while I knew better. No Nate’s not been diagnosed but today in talking to Sandy, I know he could easily find that diagnosis if I look for it. ..and no Sandy, he can’t say “I love you”..I feel sad, I feel like the bomb will be something worse in their future, like MS from the hepb at birth for the 1994 one. I really wish it wasn’t vaccine, I know it is, and yes I feel very responsible. The shot was so obviously bad, a healthy baby, suddenly can’t be awakened without almost being beat up by the nurses,winds up being sent to the nicu, comes home with “bird feedings” , dripping food into his mouth with a syringe, counting the cc’s. It was two months before he could nurse. No one has to believe Kirby however he’s telling us what many of us already knew.
Back to Nate, he is in a private, very structured school, and doing well. He has to have routine,and order, this school provides this. I knew it would have been a disaster for him to go to public school. Stevie, who became so “well” , went to public school with an aid, nothing prevented him from being tormented and bullied, his life has been hell. However, my sis believed he should never be with children like him as it would cause shared behaviors, in that respect I believe she was right. The public school provide for him with ieps all of the things he needed to succeed ,but couldn’t protect him from other kids comments. In our school the children do not tease, it’s a demerit to be caught saying something negative about another, and four of them you are out. Nate won’t lie, if he forgets to do his nightly reading, and I offer to sign for him, he won’t let me, he would rather lose his “prize” than lie. Or maybe he can’t lie? Thinking about this, I guess he really can’t lie. His birthday is the 26rh, all he wants is a puppy. I think I know why, as he is with the baby, he will be able to love a puppy.

Rick~ First, we really only have to look at the vaccine schedule up to age 3, since autism onset needs to present by that age if we’re talking autism/ vaccines. We could talk about total vaccine injury, since elderly people also have reactions to the flu jab (which is also included on VAERS reporting. It’s not only children related reporting), only that’s off topic to autism and then becomes a topic only about vaccines. Second, you actually can count the vaccines as a single jab or 3:1. Being the age of your child, I believe it was asked by some one that your child wouldn’t have had that same schedule GR has in the ad, your child would have had the needle on the left. Third, have you counted the jabs? I have, both ways and I still do not come up with 36 and again, we cant speak for those ‘sheep’ unless you have credible proof of who get’s what vaccine. That’s an uneducated assumption and change can not be made on that. I will add after Katrina, I’d bet many parents considered the hep A vaccine, but I have no evidence of that. You can only speak about your own experience. I can say I never had a prenatal flu jab. I have had only 2 flu jabs in all my long years, and no vaccines as a child. My son has never had a Hep A although I have considered it, and he’s only had one flu jab but that was after the age of 5.

Yes Sandy, just about everyone has a vested interest in something.
Offit’s interest is just a lot more vested than most. Royalties of 5, 29 or 50 million and a 1.5 mill research chair funded by Merck.
For that kind of money I might be interested in telling other people all about the joys of vaccines, whether I believe it or not.

You know Barbaraj, although parents need not to be bullied by any medical care and I am a big advocate just for that because parents are a large part of that choice and what goes on just as much as you are the larger part of an IEP team; that said, making peace with it some times lay less heavier on the heart and mind. For a very long time the only thing I was angry about as me, believing these behaviors meant nothing and easily believing others explanations. Had I not considered otherwise, imagine where my kid may be today had I gotten him help sooner? My making peace is I do not think my son would hold against me the things I just didn’t know. Life is learning, and none of us in this world have many answers for many things. I could be in my car tomorrow and have a serious accident, tomorrows events could be way worse than todays. I think for myself I find it more easier to be optimistic, and look for the better than the worse. I had thought the hardest thing in life was a divorce, it was the hardest thing I ever did. Then I thought leaving my sons dad was even harder than that with an infant on my own. Then I thought 2 hrs of no sleep 24/7 for years was the hardest thing. You’re stronger than you think you are and life tends to help prepare you for the harder things coming. You go through life making the best choice you can with what you have at the time. There is no set handbook that works for everyone.

As for that puppy, if you’re son has never had one, I’d consider it. We always had cats, but getting our first dog made a large difference. My kid shows our dogs affection and I am quite in envy of those four legged friends, they get it all while I watch! But the thing is, he’s showing those things to a living dog. We had to get dogs with short hair and not too large, but ones which could handle a more aggressive kid. A dog also helps a child learn responsibility for caring and providing for another living thing.

Rick I can appreciate that but at the same time I got to tell you that if I could had prevented RSV or rotavirus, had I known it could be that sever and scary, I would had opted for that vaccine. RSV left the doctors thinking my kid had cystic fibrosis. The idea he had that was far more scarier than hearing he had autism. As much as some need to believe it’s all about money, you should had been me or my child during RSV. You’d see a different perspective but I have no interest in convincing you, it’s just offering a different perspective and if you gain nothing by it, so be it but as I don’t want to convince you, you probably wont convince me either of your perspective fully, since I seen things differently as many other parents did which generated the RSV vacine and rotavirus.

Thanks Sandy, I guess I’m just feeling a bit guilty tonight. Yes we’ve had family pets, even one very prissy little dog, but nothing that was his, or even liked him. The dog was saved from a life in a cage and she’s a bit nuts herself, and very tiny. He’s imagining a golden retriever, and I think that would be perfect. He plays that little ds game “nintendogs” and showed me the one he liked the best, it was a retriever.
It’s been an interesting, yet nerve racking week, I’ve relived the Kawasaki, did enough searches to think she’s damaged, and her future is such unknown territory. I’m finding it interesting in how much I had really put a lot of these things “away”, not thinking about them or talking about them , then they popped back in little resurrections of almost forgotten info. I am guessing she is the priority now, she needs to be checked out thoroughly by a cardiologist, and treated if necessary. It seems the newer surgeries, grafts, bypasses, etc. can save KS patients. Needa I suggest you do the same, the mean age for heart attack is 12..with the high end being about 24. It doesn’t say this is always going to happen, in fact it’s not that common, but surely worth a trip to a cardiologist for peace of mind. I think you said something, Needa , to me the other day about getting echos more often according to recent studies, thanks for stearing me in the right direction.

RE: comments 448 & 450 -
Sorry, Sandy — I didn’t mean for that to sound as if it were a direct quote from you (which it wasn’t). I meant that people such as you who are skeptical can discount the reported vaccine injuries as unverified and therefore maybe didn’t even happen. So what’s the point of having a reporting system if the reports just sit there unverified and uninvestigated?

Not sure why you took such offense since then you went on to say that “the system as is does mean nothing, unless you can show me it’s anything more than just a reporting system of which anyone can submit to with out documentation…” which basically confirms my point that you are skeptical of these reports.

Best wishes to everyone — lots of serious issues being discussed regarding your children — really difficult to manage it all. May you find good help.

Re Paul Offit: I am sure he would have kept his royalties and his chair without writing inflammatory books or going on national TV to talk about vaccines.

In fact, I would guess that his being a controversial figure might actually endanger his chair. CHOP and Penn are not in the business of managing highly flammable debates.

IMHO, he gets very little out of the public debate except personal publicity and a lot of hate and love mail. He’s giving away his royalties. And I am quite sure that the moms and dads of Africa are not vaccinating their kids because Paul Offit says to.

He may be right or wrong (I believe he’s probably mostly right), but I really don’t think he’s doing himself any great favors with his public pro-vaccine anti-wakefield perspective.

David Kirby and Dan Olmsted aren’t making a fortune either. And while they’ve raised their profiles as journalists, and perhaps make a few thousand with public speaking, I’m not sure they’ve done a whole lot for their future careers by “pegging” themselves as spokesmen for a particular piece of the autism world.

Lisa

Rick,

You’re still not making sense. If you knew the population of Nigeria is 150 million, then why did you write that the population of India is 1,000 times larger than Nigeria?

Twyla~ Maybe you just need to choose your words better, or maybe make your points with out the benefit of using me. I really don’t need any help giving my opinion of that site. Pertaining to VAERS, it doesn’t mean I was skeptical of the reports, although it should concern you that if anyone can send in a report and you do not know if it’s reliable or true. The notice should also bother you “no cause and effect relationship has been established.” “The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.” “In some media reports and on some web sites on the Internet, VAERS reports are presented as verified cases of vaccine deaths and injuries. Statements such as these misrepresent the nature of the VAERS surveillance system.” That is a valid point of a flaw of that system and honestly I am not sure why or how any one would make a decision of vaccines based on it, and why those statement wouldn’t concern you and anyone of that system. I see that system as a band aid, and really what you’re maybe looking for is a better system of acknowledgement of vaccine injury. That system just doesn’t provide that. And if any one was to spend time reading the site info, it’s the vaccine makers making the bulk of those reports to VAERS and also, I keep asking if any one has looked at the number of reports made and no one has yet to answered either way. Look at those numbers. Since the starting year, each year has increasing numbers of reports. In 2008, there was 13,000 however, . I asked for you to site those 14 cases to mentioned you found on VAERS, maybe you can find time to do that.

Lisa, do you think that Dr. Offit is “mostly right” when he says that babies can safely receive 10,000 to 100,000 vaccines at once? This is what he said in an article published in the AAP’s journal, Pediatrics.

To me, that statement alone destroys his credibility. He is in denial mode — completely on the defensive.

I doubt that anyone said to him, “You have to write this book and make these statements or we will no longer fund your chair and we’ll take back your vaccine profits.” But the fact is, he is entrenched in the system that developed this overblown vaccine program, and in the resulting pharma money. His objective is to defend that program, his work, his reputation, his livelihood. If he admitted to harm from vaccines, that would go against his life’s work. And he knows on which side his bread is buttered.

Wendy Fournier says it better than me:

from an article at http://www.marketwatch.com/story/offits-failure-to-disclose-jeopardizes-swine-flu-vaccine-program-2009-09-08

“Offit has zero credibility in matters of vaccine safety,” said Wendy Fournier, President of the NAA. “Not only does he advance the absurd suggestion that children could safety get 100,000 vaccines at a time, he opposes any studies of the comparative health of unvaccinated children that could shed light on the extent and nature of vaccine-caused injuries, leading to their prevention.

Beyond Offit’s financial conflicts, autism advocates are also dismayed about the physician’s credibility on speaking about autism in general, as he does not treat patients with autism. “It’s a mystery how such an inexperienced and financially conflicted man has become the go-to guy for information on autism,” commented Ms. Fournier. “Here’s a man with no real knowledge about autism that again and again appears in media coverage. Not only is he completely unqualified to address autism from a medical standpoint, his financial conflicts of interest disqualify him as a credible source for vaccine safety commentary as well.”

Twyla, I don’t know enough about how/why that 10,000 jabs comment came about to be able to say it is or isn’t true. I will agree it sounds pretty odd.

Re “His objective is to defend that program, his work, his reputation, his livelihood. If he admitted to harm from vaccines, that would go against his life’s work.” YES, absolutely.

I think all of us defend those things for which we work and in which we believe. That Offit DID write the book etc. suggests to me that he is absolutely certain of his facts, and will defend them against any odds.

The reality, IMHO, is that almost every serious biological researcher in the US (and many outside the US) are funded either by pharma, by US federal agencies, or by both. That’s where the money IS. Period. Where else would they get research $, except from individual donors with their own specific agendas?

If you say “anyone whose work is funded by pharma or federal agencies is suspect,” you’re ruling out the vast majority of researchers. Is that really where you want to go?

Lisa

Actually, Offit’s life work maybe could be defined as searching for prevention, as we search for prevention of autism, his search is just different and towards diseases that great effect many who contract it. If it wasn’t for a guys work like Offit, there may never had been a vaccine for smallpox or polio. Had there been a vaccine for KD, would people not think to prevent that, more so since but causes heart conditions later in life? Do people really think that though some one survives a disease, that the suffering the person went through isn’t worth considering? I have never not been able to breath, but by observing my child, yea, I’d want to prevent that horrible feeling of not enough air to breathe. As for an over-blown vaccine schedule, there is a choice not to vaccinate so as big as the schedule grows, green should really equal educating parents on that choice.

ABN ~ “You’re still not making sense. If you knew the population of Nigeria is 150 million, then why did you write that the population of India is 1,000 times larger than Nigeria?”
I thought I explained that, bad math.
So even if it is only 10 time greater, why isn’t the death rate in India 10 times greater?
And why is the death rate in China roughly half of that in Nigeria?
There must be something other than just vaccines that control the spread of disease.

Lisa,
Not all biological research is funded by pharma and/or the government.
Polio vaccine research, both Salk and Sabin, was financed by the March of Dimes. It started as the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis started by FDR.

Mr. Wonderful, there are foundations that do support research. Howard Hughes, Autism Speaks, and many others.

Most, though, have their own issues.

For example, the scientists on the boards of those organizations tend to be university professors or pharma researchers, which means they get much of their funding through NIH.

My point is that there will almost always be a link to NIH or one of the major pharmaceutical companies or both, if you’re going to (a) need more than a few thousand dollars and (b) going to have more than one researcher involved.

The exception is when you’re funded by a foundation such as GenRescue or the like, which has its own agenda for findings.

Lisa

Interesting note about Jonas Salk.
He refused to patent the vaccine for his personal profit, as he wished to see it disseminated as quickly and as widely as possible and patenting would have hampered this.
He also established, with the help of the March of Dimes, the Salk Institute to help new and upcoming scientists along their careers.
He didn’t do any of that to get rich.

“Do you think that Dr. Offit is ‘mostly right’ when he says that babies can safely receive 10,000 to 100,000 vaccines at once?”

Offit is not saying a child can be jabbed 100,000 times at a sitting, or that a child’s body can accommodate the 8 gallons of fluid contained in 100,000 .5/ml vaccines.

He’s saying a child’s system is capable of fighting off 100,000 antigens at once. Offit explains his reasoning, using math and what science knows about the human immune system.

His reasoning and calculations were first published in a chapter titled “Vaccine Safety” in the book “Vaccines”:

A more practical way to determine the capacity of the immune system to respond to vaccines would be to consider the number of B and T cells required to generate adequate levels of binding antibodies per milliliter (ml) of blood (the “Protecton” theory). Calculations are
based on the following assumptions: 1) approximately 10 ng per ml is likely to be an effective concentration of antibody directed against a specific epitope; 2) approximately 10e3 B cells per ml are required to generate 10 ng of antibody per ml; 3) given a doubling time of about
0.75 days for B cells, it would take about 7 days to generate 10e3 B cells per ml from a single B-cell clone; 4) because vaccine-specific
humoral immune responses are first detected about 7 days after immunization, those responses could initially be generated from a single B cell clone per ml; 5) one vaccine contains about 10 immunogenic proteins or polysaccharides; 6) each immunogenic protein or polysaccharide contains about 10 epitopes (i.e. 10e2 epitopes per
vaccine); and 7) approximately 10e7 B cells are present per ml of blood. Given these assumptions, the number of vaccines to which an individual
could respond would be determined by dividing the number of circulating B cells (i.e. approximately 10e7) by the average number of epitopes per vaccine (i.e. 10e2). Therefore, an individual could theoretically respond to about 10e5 vaccines at one time.”

Twyla, what specifically in Offit’s calculations do you take issue with?

Lisa said, “The reality, IMHO, is that almost every serious biological researcher in the US (and many outside the US) are funded either by pharma, by US federal agencies, or by both. That’s where the money IS. Period. Where else would they get research $, except from individual donors with their own specific agendas?”

Alas, you have hit the nail on the head. That is one reason why the studies about vaccines have been so slanted (see http://fourteenstudies.org/ and http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/index2.html ) and there has been so little good research on vaccine problems — including a vax/unvaxed epi study, and study of the indiviual vaccine-injured children.

Pharma money also influences politicians, medical journals, and physician organizations such as the AAP.

ANB, funny how when people bring up Dr. Offit’s statement about 10,000 vaccines, sometimes posters try to say that he meant 10,000 antigens. His exact words in the Pediatrics article “Addressing Parents’ Concerns: Do Multiple Vaccines Overwhelm or Weaken the Infant’s Immune System?” (p. 126, mid right column) were:
“then each infant would have the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10,000 vaccines at any one time” Vaccines, not antigens.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/109/1/124?ijkey=cf770351f8eb8358d6808a69da5e7ab6b4a0652d

Elsewhere he upped this to 100,000 vaccines.
See http://www.whale.to/vaccines/offit23.html

What specifically do I take issue with in his calculations? Medicine is not like math, where 2 + 2 always equals 4. You can’t just sit there in your office and do a bunch of calculations to prove that a baby could respond safely to 10,000 vaccines. That is absurd — worse than absurd. Those calculations do not negate the numerous case histories of infants having adverse reactions to multiple vaccines. Even veterinarians, apparently less hindered by Owellian thought control, have revised the schedule for pets so that pets receive fewer vaccines because multiple vaccines can overwhelm the immune system.

There are numerous factors that can impact an individual’s susceptibility to vaccine injury. There are also numerous ingredients in vaccines besides the antigens that Dr. Offit is counting.

The workings of the immune system are complex. There are cells that play the roles of soldiers, messengers, and record keepers. It is very tricky for the immune system to recognize and attack enemies but not the self or the food we eat, and to become inflamed when appropriate and then calm down. Direct injection of multiple microbes at once such as measles, mumps, rubella, varicela, diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, and flu is very different from our normal exposures via lungs, skin, or GI tract — usually to one serious illness at a time.

10,000 vaccines at once? Prove it, Dr. Offit! Would you even subject yourself to 50?

And regarding financial interests… Per Upton Sinclair: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”

ANB, I wrote a response to your comment, but it hasn’t been posted yet — maybe because it had two links in it. I hope it will be posted; if not I’ll have to write it again tomorrow.

and 1+1 doesn’t necessarily =2
there is the potential for any 1 to be enhanced
by the other 1
synergy can have dreadful outcomes and often within our bodies there are synergens, such as testosterone
there is no absolute, constant math when it comes to biologicals
I don’t know what medicine does today to attempt to measure but outcomes such as gullian barre , precipitated autoimmune disease may suggest they aren’t doing enough
I didn’t fear the H1N1 outbreak as much as I fear my kids sitting next to the “flumisted” children..

I liked reading through the cdc garbage..”can it cause autoimmune disease”..answer..in theory with this molecule and that microbe..lalala..YES” you will find this within pages of small print..flumist can also enhance ( love it) the exacerbation of mitochondrial disease..
When they tell us, info via Lisa’s blog today, to expect more morbidity/mortality from the flu in those with underlying developmental delays, you can expect the same from the flu mist according to their own info
I don’t think it will be a vaers issue, afterall the warning is there..no asthmatics..no mitochondrial disease…or immune problems..and if you are under 2 ,perhaps more than 5% of you will be hospitalized with your first episode of wheezing..yep go for it!

Oh Twyla, do really think that Offit meant a child could absorb 12 gallons of saline solution at once? Because that’s how much is contained in 100,000 vaccines. Twelve gallons – that’s nearly 100 pounds of salt water. Think about it.

100,000 vaccines would contain about 5 gallons of formaldehyde. That’s enough to embalm a moose. Do you really think that’s what Offit meant?

Offit was talking about antigens. His calculations take antigens into account – not aluminum salts, FA, etc. I realize this is your big “gotcha” moment and all, but it only takes a tiny amount of common sense to understand how Offit was using the word “vaccines”.

Think of it another way – 100,000 antigens could be loaded into a single shot containing .5 ml of saline solution. Offit is saying that, theoretically, our bodies can handle that.

If you disagree, then you need to rework Offit’s calculations, point out where he went wrong, and publish in a high impact journal such as Pediatrics. When can we expect that?

The immune system can recognize millions of different antigens and neutralize or destroy them. On the other hand, an allergen is a substance that induces an allergic reaction, an abnormally high or misguided reaction by the immune system to a specific antigen that is normally harmless.

Regardless of vaccines, everyone one is exposed to antigens on a daily bases.
Whatever Offit said, and more related to antigens than creating 10,000 or 100,000 (whichever it was) vaccines which of course if anyone actually said that would had been a figure of speech since there isn’t 10,000 or 100,000 vaccines a day or even 50. You have a better chance of exposure walking down the street. It still needs to be proven that just one vaccine for the majority is harmful, or the vaccine schedule as-is for the majority is harmful.

It’s a manner of picking apart a persons words (which happens frequently it seems) and pertaining it’s meaning to vaccines of course since that’s what Offit invents, and then relating it to 50, 10,000 or 100,000 vaccines in one day in which to discredit the person only the ones who spread it’s not intended meaning is actually looks more far-fetched.

ANB, in the Pedeatrics article I linked to above, Dr. Offit says:
“A more practical way to determine the diversity of the immune response would be to estimate the number of vaccines to which a child could respond at one time. If we assume that 1) approximately 10 ng/mL of antibody is likely to be an effective concentration of antibody per epitope (an immunologically distinct region of a protein or polysaccharide),39 2) generation of 10 ng/mL requires approximately 103 B-cells per mL,39 3) a single B-cell clone takes about 1 week to reach the 103 progeny B-cells required to secrete 10 ng/mL of antibody39 (therefore, vaccine-epitopespecific
immune responses found about 1 week after immunization can be generated initially from a single B-cell clone per mL), 4) each vaccine contains approximately 100 antigens and 10 epitopes per antigen (ie, 103 epitopes), and 5) approximately 107 B cells are present per mL of circulating blood,39 then each infant would have the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10 000 vaccines at any one time (obtained by dividing 107 B cells per mL by 103 epitopes per vaccine).”

Per #4 above, there are about 100 antigens in a vaccine. Therefore 10,000 vaccines contain about 1,000,000 antigens, and 100,000 vaccines contain about 10,000,000 antigens. His conclusion was that a baby could receive 10,000 vaccines; he did not say 10,000 antigens.

The context of this statement is an article called “Addressing Parents’ Concerns: Do Multiple Vaccines Overwhelm or Weaken the Infant’s Immune System?” He is not addressing a concern about whether there are too many antigens in each vaccine, but whether a baby’s immune system can be harmed by too many vaccines.

Yes, his statement is absolutely absurd if you think of how many gallon containers 10,000 vaccines would fill. It is also absurd if he meant that 10,000 antigens could be put into one or two vaccines, or if he said that his calculations on antigens alone mean that multiple vaccines — containing so many ingredients besides the antigens — are safe. Any way you look at it, it makes no sense. Even the basic premise that he can mathematically calculate the immune system’s reaction to the antigens alone makes no sense. There are so many other factors involved in the immune system’s response besides cell counts.

As for your statement, “If you disagree, then you need to rework Offit’s calculations, point out where he went wrong, and publish in a high impact journal such as Pediatrics. When can we expect that?” I am so sick of that kind of sarcastic condescension. Obviously I am not a scientist nor mathemetician and I will not be publishing any articles in journals. But we cannot just sit and wait for the scientists. We form our own opinions.

Scientists are mere mortals. And as Lisa pointed out, most of their funding comes from pharma and gov’t agencies — with (I would add) very entrenched interests. And, sometimes it takes a mere boy to point out that the emperor wears no clothes.

Offit’s calcs remind me of the following scenario:

Imagine you are a doctor working in a hospital in a war zone. A bleeding soldier shows up at your door. You get out your pen and paper and calculator, or maybe turn on your laptop, and do a few calculations.

“I have calculated the number of soldiers fighting on both sides today and determined that you could not possibly be wounded.”

“What?” gasps the soldier, “You’re not even going to examine me?”

“No,” you say, “I have advanced degrees. I know about these things. You should get back to work.”

This appears to be Dr. Offit’s response to the children with chronic bowel disorders, asthma, diabetes, ADD, autism, seizures, and severe allergies — all of which may arise from overvaccination throwing the immune system off track.

Twyla, what proof do you have that “overvaccination” throws the immune system off track, resulting in ADD, diabetes, asthma, etc.? Not to be condescending or anything, but in a mechanistic universe, evidence still counts for something.

The whole concept of “overvaccination” overlooks the fact that we are bombarded with far more antigens every hour of every day that what are contained in the entire pediatric schedule. To use my own incomplete and fatuous scenario, imagine a child rolling around on a beach, covered from head to foot with sand. Then imagine the child’s mother freaking out because a stranger ran by kicked up some some sand, and added another 150 grains to the child’s body.

That’s the scale we’re talking about – 150 additional antigens, delivered over five years, compared to the million or more that end up in your kid’s body by the mere act of breathing and eating.

This is what Offit is talking about. If a child’s immune system can’t handle a dozen antigens at a time, he has bigger problems than vaccines.

It appears chronic bowel disorders, asthma, diabetes, ADD, autism, seizures, and severe allergies and evertyhing else under the sun is blamed on vaccines, but there is no valid connection to them. So people can assume what Offit’s meaning was all day and connect it, inject it and make it to mean anything they want. The fact is chronic bowel disorders, asthma, diabetes, ADD, autism, seizures, and severe allergies and everything under the sun can all happen w/o one vaccine or a zillion, and those medical issues have been going on long before vaccines.
It seems people are going to pick apart everything the man says and does no matter what. Now if Offit comes back and starts adcovating for a zillion vaccines all at once, that’s really something to be concerned with. Until he actually does that, who really cares what he said.

Folks, I think maybe we have injected, inspected, detected, infected, neglected and
selected this subject to the point that even seen the twenty-seven 8 x 10 colored glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one and still can’t come to a conclusion.

Ooops,
“to the point that even seen” should read “to the point that we have even seen”.

So, Sandy, you’re o.k. with advocating for 10,000 vaccines all at once but not a zillion vaccines? That’s where you draw the line?

Well, one problem is that a “zillion” doesn’t actually have a specific meaning. Per Wikipedia, “The English language has a number of words for indefinite and fictitious numbers — inexact terms of indefinite size, used for comic effect, for exaggeration, as placeholder names, or when precision is unnecessary or undesirable… Words ending in the sound “-illion”, such as zillion, jillion, and gazillion, are often used as fictitious names for an unspecified, large number by analogy to names of large numbers such as million, billion and trillion. Their size is dependent upon the context, but can typically be considered large enough to be unfathomable.”

Hmmmm… I’ll keep in mind that 10,000 vaccines at once are safe, but not a zillion…

Mr. Wonderful -
Actually, I think that Lisa, ANB, Sandy, Barbaraj and I have all come to some conclusions, but they are different conclusions, except that I pretty much agree with Barbaraj’s conclusions.

But we certainly haven’t come to a consensus. I’m still hoping that somebody somewhere will see the logic of my posts. But maybe the only people reading right now are the people who don’t agree with anything I say and never will! Oh, well…

ANB, I’m working on a response to your question, but it may involve multiple links, in which case it will be a while until it gets posted.

There you go putting words where they weren’t. When there’s the possibility of that many vaccine twyla, you come back and let me know. Until then, all you’re doing is attacking everything the man says in order to prove your point, which hasn’t been proven at all.

You’re better off just sticking with the actual vaccine there are today, than some made up ones, which is whre that zillion came from.

And what is wrong with different conclusions than yours? Are we all suppose to believe what everyone else does? Is that not a sheep?? No conclusion is correct as of today, so no one knows if your concluion, what eer that is, is the correct one and you certainly would have no idea if it would pertain to my family or anyone else’s.

Here is the first piece of evidence. I will try to post links singly to try to avoid delay. The Washington Post’s article “Immune Systems Increasingly On Attack” discussed the increase in immune system related disorders. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/03/AR2008030303200_pf.html

“First, asthma cases shot up, along with hay fever and other common allergic reactions, such as eczema. Then, pediatricians started seeing more children with food allergies. Now, experts are increasingly convinced that a suspected jump in lupus, multiple sclerosis and other afflictions caused by misfiring immune systems is real.

“Though the data are stronger for some diseases than others, and part of the increase may reflect better diagnoses, experts estimate that many allergies and immune-system diseases have doubled, tripled or even quadrupled in the last few decades, depending on the ailment and country. Some studies now indicate that more than half of the U.S. population has at least one allergy.”

Ummmm…. let’s see. What could be causing this increase in misfiring immune systems? Why doesn’t this reporter consider the elephant in the room — vaccines? The whole purpose of vaccines is to stimulate the immune system. We are giving multiple vaccines to tiny babies and toddlers, with ingredients such as aluminum, still some mercury, and various proteins which could train the immune system to attack not only the microbes but innocent proteins in our bodies and in the foods we eat.

Here is an article by Mark Blaxill summarizing some reasearch indicating higher rates of autism with earlier vaccination:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/07/earlier-vaccina.html

Here is the study in Canada showing that just delaying the DPT vaccine by two months reduced asthma rates:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18207561

“RESULTS: Among 11, 531 children who received at least 4 doses of DPT, the risk of asthma was reduced to (1/2) in children whose first dose of DPT was delayed by more than 2 months. The likelihood of asthma in children with delays in all 3 doses was 0.39 (95% CI, 0.18-0.86). CONCLUSION: We found a negative association between delay in administration of the first dose of whole-cell DPT immunization in childhood and the development of asthma; the association was greater with delays in all of the first 3 doses. The mechanism for this phenomenon requires further research.”

Here is some info on vaccines and diabetes:
http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/Diabetes/juvenilediabetes.aspx

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli

To put the last line first for those who don’t read this whole thing “What I am saying is that people often cherry pick statistics that support the perspective they want the rest of us to believe.”

http://news. yahoo.com/ s/nm/20090918/ us_nm/us_ usa_healthcare_ deaths
{Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance}
“Roughly 46.3 million people in the United States lacked coverage in 2008″. This is approximately 1/6th of the US population. With 45,000 estimated deaths each year due to lack on insurance, that works out to 1 in 1029 people lacking insurance will die because of that fact.

Let’s compare to some other statistics:

An Estimated 200,000 People Die From Medical Errors and Hospital-Acquired
Infections Each Year

http://www.reuters. com/article/ pressRelease/ idUS15258+ 09-Aug-2009+ PRN20090809

The Institute of Medicine reported in January of 2000 that from 44,000 to 98,000 deaths occur annually from medication errors. (NOTE: this figure only applies to “in-patient” pharmacy errors, and does not include out-patient or nursing home error.)

http://www.fda. gov/Drugs/ DevelopmentAppro valProcess/ DevelopmentResou rces/DrugInterac tionsLabeling/ ucm110632. htm

Assuming that all of these people HAVE insurance of some kind, that means upwards of 300,000 people die out of a total population of 250,000,000, or 1 in 833. That makes NOT having health insurance 24% SAFER than having health insurance.

And, if we assume that the people dying due to faulty medical practice occur at the same rate for insured and uninsured, that means that at least 300,000 people die out of our total population of 300,000,000, or 1 in 1000, a statistically insignificant rate compared to the estimated rate for the uninsured alone, meaning that the uninsured are in actuality no worse off for not having insurance.

Now I am not arguing that the uninsured should not be helped to get insurance.
What I am saying is that people often cherry pick statistics that support the perspective they want the rest of us to believe.

Your first piece of evidence that vaccines cause autism is a newspaper article that doesn’t mention vaccines or autism.

You still haven’t explained why “aluminum” is the same thing as “aluminum salts”, or why you think 25 mics of thimerosal is more dangerous than 250 mics.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who, as you put it, “will see the logic” of your posts.

Yup, no shortage of that.

Here’s an interesting article by Charles Richet, nobel prize winner in 1913, about anaphylaxis and dogs who were injected with small quantities of various substances. (Cruel experiments!) Some interesting quotes:

“Let us suppose the dosage to be moderate and that after a few days the subject is, or at least appears to be, normal. If, at this point, a further injection is given of the same dosage of the same poison, what will happen?

“There are three possibilities.

“The first and simplest is that there has been no change in the organism and that in receiving the same dosage as one month previously, exactly the same phenomena will result, in exactly the same conditions. Naturally this is what happens most of the time. Specialists and doctors work on this assumption when they repeat the intoxication at one month intervals.

“The second possibility is that the subject has become less sensitive. In other words, the preceding intoxication has produced a certain condition of tolerance or non-sensitivity…

“Now I have shown that there is a third possibility, frequently to be observed in certain conditions which I have specified: this is of heightened sensitivity. The first injection, instead of protecting the organism, renders it more fragile and more susceptible. This is anaphylaxis.”

“Now however the effects of anaphylaxis in mankind are very well known. Two doctors from Vienna, Pirquet and Schick, have studied the matter with the greatest care. They have described serum-sickness (“Serum-Krankheit”) in children subjected to injections of diphtheria serum and they saw that it was in most cases an anaphylactic phenomenon. It is only in the rarest cases that the first injection is productive of immediate reaction. When it comes to the second injection, an immediate reaction follows for 90% of the cases, that is to say when the period between the first and second injection is from ten to thirty days.”

He found that individuals reacted differently to injections. Just as we have different personalities, so we have different immune systems:

“Each one of us, by our chemical make-up, above all by our blood and probably also by the protoplasm of each cell, is himself and no one else. In other words, he has a humoral personality. We all know very well what the personality of the psyche is… Nothing could be clearer than this idea of the personality in terms of psyche which stands to reason and is valid in all human conscience.

“Now, in the light of notions of immunity and of anaphylaxis, we can conceive of another personality in juxtaposition to the moral personality and that is the humoral personality, which makes us different from other men by the chemical make-up of our humours.

“This is an entirely new idea. It was thought up to now, perhaps from lack of after-thought, that with individuals of the same age, race and sex the humors would no doubt be chemically identical. Well, it is not like that at all. Every living being, though presenting the strongest resemblances to others of his species, has his own characteristics so that he is himself and not somebody else. This means that henceforth study of the physiology of the species is no longer enough. Another physiology must be taken up, which is very difficult and barely broached, namely that of the individual.”

In other words — susceptible sub-groups!

He found that injection had a different effect than injestion:

“We are so constituted that we can never receive other proteins into the blood than those that have been modified by digestive juices. Every time alien protein penetrates by effraction, the organism suffers and becomes resistant. This resistance lies in increased sensitivity, a sort of revolt against the second parenteral injection which would be fatal. At the first injection, the organism was taken by surprise and did not resist. At the second injection, the organism mans its defences and answers by the anaphylactic shock.

“Seen in these terms, anaphylaxis is an universal defence mechanism against the penetration of heterogenous substances in the blood, whence they can not be eliminated.”

Microbes in the DPT and DTaP vaccine are raised on substrates made of casein or whey. Is it any wonder that so many kids develop reactions to milk? People with autism and asthma often do much better when milk is removed from the diet.

And no wonder there has been an increase in anaphyactic reactions in kids today. When I was a kid, peanut butter sandwiches were harmless.

It is hardly worth my while to point out tha Mark Blaxill’s article does not constitute serious evidence. He is the same person who still maintains that Offit was paid $29-50 million, despite proof to the contrary. He is a publicist for a fringe anti-vaccine group, and his opinion piece should be taken for no more.

The Canadian asthma study did not conclude that DTaP cause asthma. One of the authors of the paper, disgusted with breathless media coverage of the study, later wrote that the findings have no clinical relevance because children in the cohort received cellular pertussis DTaP vaccine which is no longer used in North America. Further, a possible explanation (as stated in the paper) was that vaccinations were delayed due to the presence of fever in the child and it is the fever that protected against asthma development.

I’m ignoring the NVIC link, for reasons that people who don’t “see the logic of your posts” will surely understand.

So in review, your proof that vaccines cause autism consists of a newspaper article that doesn’t mention either, a Mark Blaxill post at AoA, and a study which doesn’t conclude that DTaP causes asthma.

If this was a baseball game, you’d be headed back to the dugout right now.

If you’re here to try and convince others of you’re beliefs, you’re in the wrong place. No one likes to be forced to what people believe but besides that, what you offered states “The mechanism for this phenomenon requires further research.” Not conclusive in other words. None of the other links have comclusive findings, either. As for the diabetes link:
“This research is particularly important for individuals who may have a genetic predisposition to autoimmunity, such as those with a family history of autoimmune disease.”
Key word there is genetic. Vaccines alone, even in those links you provide all the time, is not the sole culprit in causing anything that doesn’t already have a genetic predisposition. That is important for people to know and understand, and when making choices for ones family. Thanks again for pointing out that important info.

Here is an article I wrote about veterinarians and vaccines for animals. What a coincidence — overvaccinated pets suffer from the same health conditions as so many kids with autism.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/05/veterinarian-wi.html

And yes, ANB, I don’t have the perfect peer reviewed paper for you, because the wagons are circling to protect the vaccine program and, as Lisa said, “almost every serious biological researcher in the US (and many outside the US) are funded either by pharma, by US federal agencies, or by both. That’s where the money IS. Period.”

But there is some research indicating pieces of the puzzle. The article from the WP saying that immune system disorders have risen significantly among children is but one piece of the puzzle. The article about DPT and asthma in Canada is significant. I’m not a professional, and I’m sure someone else could find more and better evidence.

But I have to go now. I’ll check back later to see how my posts have been roundly trashed, and to share some more evidence.

Although the AOA sites the study which at the ends states
“The mechanism for this phenomenon requires further research.”
Mark F. Blaxill concludes “In other words, earlier vaccination causes asthma.”
The only thing that article stated, which I have stated and was attacked for stating it, “Take responsibility for your own child’s health” Does that mean he also is blaming parents???

Of course all these studies have a genetic predisposition, but biased sites tell it to you differently, which is why going to the study is the best thing than to read what some person had to say about it and insert things into it that wasn’t there to begin with.

And let’s not put the full blame on one thing. A poster here keeps bringing up environmental’s that we have exposure to every day, depending on where you live, those may be higher than others. It is more likely that asthma is growing in higher rates due to constant exposure to daily environmental’s than anything else.

Actually, ANB, I wasn’t asked for proof that vaccines cause autism, but that there is a link between vaccines and immune system disorders such as IBD, asthma, diabetes, ADD, autism, seizures, and severe allergies.

I disagree with your assessment of Mark Blaxill, but regardless, his article contains references to a lot of information. So think what you will of him, but refer to the studies listed at the end of his article. Same goes for NVIC.

Sandy said, “If you’re here to try and convince others of you’re (sic) beliefs, you’re in the wrong place.” I certainly don’t expect to convince you of anything, Sandy. Clearly your mind is made up.

Sandy said that one article stated, “The mechanism for this phenomenon requires further research.’ Yes, exactly. We need more research.

Sandy also quoted, ““This research is particularly important for individuals who may have a genetic predisposition to autoimmunity, such as those with a family history of autoimmune disease.” Yes, this is very important. Understanding of susceptibility/vulnerability is an important feature of a vaccine program. Currently, there is too much simple denial of vaccine injuries instead of studies to better understand susceptibility factors such as family history of autoimmune disorders.

Studies have found increased rates of autoimmune disorders among people with autism. How many parents are asked about family history before their babies are vaccinated? I don’t know anyone whose pediatrician said, “since you have a family history of auto-immunity let’s take it slow… ”

OK, now I really have to go cook.

I have 2 out of three that have asthma. Why?? My husband has it, hits mother had it and her mother had it. So yes, it does run in the family!! Also we live in an area where there is oil refineries, as well as others.

When the air is humid or damp it makes their asthma worse. Also when they are sick its the worse thing!! They have major issues with breathing.

I am suppose to read the info provided about vaccines and I am suppose to have an open mind? However it seems that the minds are closed when I bring up the fact that when there also could be the theory that environment can also be a contribute to the rates. As I have stated many times in this blog. The very same things that is in the vaccines are the very same things in the environment’s air and the preservatives that is used in our food. When exposed over time, yes, it is going to play a role in the body. Pollution has been documented as late as the 1200′s. Generation after generation has been eating and breathing all of these elements.

I also feel that there is many causes to autism not just one. All would have the same effects if there was just one cause.

Everyone wants to blame money?? Well there are those who also make money on the anti-vaccine side as well. Name one person who doesn’t make some sort of money?

I’ll kindly remind you again not to add to what I post. The only reason people do that is to cause animosity, kids do that sort of thing, not adults.

A link is not concrete solid proof, however that is not how Blaxill wrote it. He concluded “In other words, earlier vaccination causes asthma.” Even with diabetes, that can still occur without any vaccines as it did for my sister, when there is a genetic predisposition. Vaccines does not mean those genetic predispositions will never happen.

Since there are only a few people who read the links you send, and you continue to send them sure is proof enough for me you are trying to convince at least me of what you are trying to prove and no stduy is required to see that’s exactly the motive.

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli
{I will out the last line first for those who don’t read all the way to the bottom of this post.)
“What I am saying is that people often cherry pick statistics that support the perspective they want the rest of us to believe.”
Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance

http://news. yahoo.com/ s/nm/20090918/ us_nm/us_ usa_healthcare_ deaths

“Roughly 46.3 million people in the United States lacked coverage in 2008″. This is approximately 1/6th of the US population. With 45,000 estimated deaths each year due to lack on insurance, that works out to 1 in 1029 people lacking insurance will die because of that fact.

Let’s compare to some other statistics:

An Estimated 200,000 People Die From Medical Errors and Hospital-Acquired
Infections Each Year

Reuters link here I will post it seperately.

The Institute of Medicine reported in January of 2000 that from 44,000 to 98,000 deaths occur annually from medication errors. (NOTE: this figure only applies to “in-patient” pharmacy errors, and does not include out-patient or nursing home error.)

FDA link here which I will post seperately.

Assuming that all of these people HAVE insurance of some kind, that means upwards of 300,000 people die out of a total population of 250,000,000, or 1 in 833. That makes NOT having health insurance 24% SAFER than having health insurance.

And, if we assume that the people dying due to faulty medical practice occur at the same rate for insured and uninsured, that means that at least 300,000 people die out of our total population of 300,000,000, or 1 in 1000, a statistically insignificant rate compared to the estimated rate for the uninsured alone, meaning that the uninsured are in actuality no worse off for not having insurance.

Now I am not arguing that the uninsured should not be helped to get insurance.
What I am saying is that people often cherry pick statistics that support the perspective they want the rest of us to believe.

momof3~ you’re correct, once they figure out the vaccines, they’ll have to go and figure out the environmentals being forgotten and not addressed that’s in the food we eat and the air we breathe. That’s why the focus shouldn’t be stuck on one thing. Those things more play a role since the exposure is daily, not just during well care check-ups.

You’re also correct, autism has many causes since many have autism and never had one vaccine.

For your 2 of 3 kids that have asthma and your husband, how many also have autism? Do they also have other medical issues? I think I recall a few things you’ve commented about.

Mr. Wonderful, that is actually pretty shocking info the way you lay it out, and possibly quite accurate too.

This also relates to vaccines in another way. Let’s say that 1:10,000 vaccinated are injured in some way — seriously or mildly — as a result of the vaccination.

How does that risk compare, say, to the risk of your child being injured in a car crash, in the bathtub, or on the playground?

Obviously the risk of injury in everyday activity is far, far greater than the risk of vaccine injury. Yet we expose our kids to those and many other risks without thinking twice.

I believe it has a lot to do with our sense of comfort with those risks: we do these things every day, hence the risk is minimal.

In addition (and I think this is significant) WE decide to take our kids to the store: the decision is not handed down from a white-coated authority figure who then sticks a needle into our child and mainstreams a pile of chemicals into their body.

Never mind that we’re doing essentially the same thing when we say “yes” to our kids eating crappy candy loaded with whatever chemicals… or birthday cake from the grocery store… or Dunkin Donuts!

Lisa

Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance

The Rest of The Story..
For what ever reason it seems “about” only allows one link per post.

http://www.reuters. com/article/ pressRelease/ idUS15258+ 09-Aug-2009+ PRN20090809

www fda. gov/Drugs/ DevelopmentAppro valProcess/ DevelopmentResou rces/DrugInterac tionsLabeling/ ucm110632. htm

Sandy:

My son 11, was born with a duplication of the ear canal and inner ear deformity. He also had a skin tag on the left eat that looked like a baby finger that was removed by surgery at age 1. He has sensorineual hearing loss of the left ear and under went a a canaolplasty at the age of 2 He also has a left facial nerve neuroma, at 4 is when he got dx with autism,ADHD and has the MR dx.. This is only because of the language delay and he has been consistent of the IQ of 52. He also has Asthma, and will be needed to be fitted for arch supports soon due to flat feet.

My oldest daughter 13, shortly after birth in was in NICU, due to stop breathing. She had to have IV’s and feeding tubes and an oxygen hood, this contributed to her LD. See a baby go through that just broke my heat and the not know what was going to happen was a nightmare. She had tubes in her ears at 7 months. The fluid did damage to nerves in her ears, which is related to the CAPD. She also has been recently DX with scoliosis. Had to have an X-ray and MRI done on her back last month. She needs to monitored every year by x-ray.

My youngest daughter 6 is above average. She has problems with her hip sockets and leg joint slipping.

momof3~ when was the age of onset of asthma for your kids and husband?

I never had experience with a child born and going to NICU. That had to be very scary for you.

My husband was in his teens when they found out with him.

My kids was about 2 yrs ago.

ANB
“Mark Blaxill is a publicist for a fringe anti-vaccine group, and his opinion piece should be taken for no more”?
Thomas Paine was a publicist for a fringe anti-Crown group.
Fredick Douglas was a publicist for a fringe anti-slavery group, and Mahatma Gandhi was a publicist for a fringe anti-British group.
So at some point Blaxill could be a publicist for a mainstream anti-vaccine group.

Momof3 -
I definitely agree that “environment can also be a contribute to the rates” and that “there is many causes to autism not just one”. This is one reason why it is hard for the large epidemiological studies to tease out the causes.
from,
Twyla (also a mom of 3)

re: # 511
amen, Mr. Wonderful

ANB said, “If this was a baseball game, you’d be headed back to the dugout right now.” This confirms my impression of how you view these conversations — as a sport, a competition, us against them; it seems the objective is not to figure out what is harming our children but to win, to crush the opposition.

It’s called confirmation bias, and you have it in spades.

I’m sorry Momof3, and I know how scary the NICU is, our’s March,1996 born beautiful and healthy received his Hepb and was suddenly helpless and limp, sent to the NICU for seven days, with iv’s in his head, and gavage feedings. I know I’m on a different page, and maybe we should be on different pages because perhaps what caused distress in ours doesn’t necessarily have to be what caused distress in yours. Yes I blame vaccines for everything, and today I added another to my list. The polio vaccine contaminated with simian 40, is showing up in the biopsies of brain tumors in the recipients’ children and grandchildren. So yep, I believe there is more damage than even a believer like myself can imagine. I don’t know how old your son is, I do hope that he can have some recovery. The other day I mentioned how my nephew woke up after losing 60 lbs., I can assure you he never cooperated enough to have an IQ level accurately determined. The foster grant company, with the children and grandchildren dx’d with autism, certainly can be sourced back to mercury pollutants, so yep , much of this can be and probably is environmental. I believe vaccine falls into that environmental category , as well.
Too many have CAPD these days, those that otherwise wouldn’t fit into any part of the spectrum, something is damaging the signals. My friend , in fact, has an iep for her child just for CAPD, he wears the earphones , and is doing well. He will be getting the shots, she believes plastic caused it as well as autism in others. Hard to believe we are friends, as we recently started to “war” on this topic almost daily. Her daughters just got their hpv shots, all I can do is cringe. I didn’t use plastic bottles or any bottles for the older three, but I did use sippy cups, so I can’t say we never had any exposures. The five year old has a level 4 of lead, our health department considers that normal, perhaps it was batman hanging out of his mouth for two years?
When Mary commented under the h1n1 blog, I felt like I was so lucky, and wanted to cry. Yes, you too,may be dealing with so much more than I could handle.

I believe vaccine falls into that environmental category as well.

By definition, anything that is not genetic is environmental. The idea that environment can affect genes was first postulated for cancer in 1971, and it applies to autism as well. An American Academy of Pediatrics clinical report from 2007 had this to say:

“…the expression of the autism gene(s) may be influenced by environmental factors. Although currently under investigation, these factors may represent a “second-hit” phenomenon that primarily occurs during fetal brain development. That is, environmental factors may modulate already existing genetic factors responsible for the manifestation of [autism] in individual children.

source: http://tinyurl.com/ld2gle

ANB said, “If this was a baseball game, you’d be headed back to the dugout right now.”
That’s exactly what a player does after they hit a Home Run

Thanks ANB, and that would fit into every part of our lives. How we taste food, why my cold is in my head and my husband’s is in his chest,why rubber gloves make my hands peel,and bandaids cause my child to get hives, why I love the smell of perfume and my husband gets a migraine, everyone has a set of genes that could be pushed in the wrong direction, we just need to identify our risks. The fact that my one son is allergic to eggs used to give him a pass on the mmr, not any longer, yet he’s still allergic to eggs? Someone said the other day, peanut butter sandwiches were great for everyone, now so many would drop dead with a bite. What happened? Did our genes change, can we blame a literal explosion of peanut allergies on genes? Sure we can, but should we?

How Independent Are Vaccine Defenders?
This is a link to a MAINSTREAM news source, not one of the so called “fringe” anti-vaccine group.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/25/cbsnews_investigates/main4296175.shtml
It mentions Offit, Every Child By Two and American Academy of Pediatrics as groups who receive money from the vaccine industry.
And it also mentions Offit’s remark, “babies can tolerate 10,000 vaccines at once.”

On July 19, 2005 then director of the CDC made the following statement. This was the same day as a rally in DC conducted by Unlocking Autism and other groups that were trying to convince CDC and G W Bush to remove thimerosal from ALL vaccines.
“But I can’t sit here today and tell you with 100 percent certainty that there is absolutely never going to be any association of thimerosal and autism in one or more children. Science doesn’t say that and it will be very difficult for science to ever prove a negative. What is we can say is the predominance of evidence does not associate a link, and we’ve certainly been looking hard to find such a link.”

http://www.cdc.gov/media/transcripts/t050719.htm

Thank you Mr. Wonderful, I find it unusual for a report of that kind, in mainstream, and that’s a shame. Can we look for pharm money’s media connections or is it too well hidden?

Where is Michael Moore, he would be very helpful in uncovering connections.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mikeinthenews/index.php?id=10044

Barbaraj
Yes, it is unusual. As I have said before, watch the boob tube for an hour or so and see how many ads you see for pharma products.
As for Micheal Moore, he has lost credibility with many people, on both sides of the issues. He admitted that he made up so of the stuff in his documentary FAHRENHEIT 9/11 to make the story more interesting.
But it might be interesting. When he was making SiCKO, several major pharmaceutical companies told their employees not to grant any interviews to Moore.
Hey, he might even find conclusive proof that vaccines can cause autism.

An example of pharma influence on TV. They pay megabucks for those commercials.
How many times a day do you see commercials for Lyrica?
It is for the treatment of Fibromyalgia. One part of the commercial says “Fibromyalgia is thought to be the result of overactive nerves that cause chronic, widespread pain. LYRICA is FDA-approved to help relieve the unique pain of Fibromyalgia.”
“Is thought to be the result of”?
They don’t know the cause but they have a treatment? Not a cure, just a product to mask the symptoms.
“If you think you might have Fibromyalgia, ask your doctor about Lyrica”.
Shouldn’t you go to the doctor and get a diagnoses before you start a treatment?
Never mind the side effects.

barbj, could you clear something up for me?

In comment 409, you said that for every adverse effect reported to VAERS, multiply that by 100 to get a more accurate count of vaccine injuries.

Then, in comment 419 you said:

“oops..I did not mean to say multiply..in the conversation it was add 100 not multiply..to each reported case.”

Did you mean to write this?

It’s a pure assumption made about who didn’t report to VAERS. Doesn’t matter if you multiply or add or subtract, there is no possible way for some one to make a comment as such accurately. It’s a pure assumptions to prove ones point based on a guess and also misuse of the site as described by the site.

The difference between multiplying 1X100 and adding 1+100 is one. In her correction she is actually claiming a higher number of unreported adverse events. Then she tells us she is making up the numbers anyway.

Here are some numbers that aren’t made up:

Hazel and Shakir (2006) studied under-reporting of adverse drug reactions (ADRs) to spontaneous reporting systems to look for differences between different types of ADRs. They reviewed 37 studies from 12 countries, and found a median under reporting rate of 94%. There was no significant difference in the median under-reporting rates for general practice and hospital-based studies.

At the risk of repeating myself.
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli

And the lies about vaccines in order to prove ones point, so there are 4 types of lies. Again, per the site itself, it’s misuse of it and it happen all over the web. People must not read the warning statement before they click accept or they’d never ever site VAERS to begin with.

Those would be the lies that the CDC, FDA, Pharma, Offit ect tell about vaccines? Like “sure, it’s a really good idea to inject mercury, aluminum, msg, antifreeze, etc into the human body”.
BTW, did you mean “never ever CITE VAERS”?

Rick~ You believe what you want about what’s in vaccines. I’m not going to tell you otherwise but most people wont take it at face value. You’re already being exposed to most of those things on a daily bases anyway. Poison is poison no matter how you’re exposed.

Cite VAERS all you want. It’s obvious most people click agree without reading what they’re agreeing to. Go ahead and read the statement for yourself then come back and tell me how valuable the site even is with those warning statements. It aint me, it’s the site itself.

ANB
Could you supply a link to the report “Hazel and Shakir (2006) “. I did a search and couldn’t find it.
I’m interested in the methodolligy used to prove who didn’t report adverse drug reactions.

Sandy, there is a difference between being exposed to something and having it injected directly into you bloodstream.
Notice that I DIDN’T cite VAERS at all. ABN cited a study that I couldn’t find on the ‘net.

Those would be the lies that the CDC, FDA, Pharma, Offit ect tell about vaccines? Like “sure, it’s a really good idea to inject mercury, aluminum, msg, antifreeze, etc into the human body”.

Mr. Wonderful, you just fried my irony meter. There is not antifreeze in vaccines, and the “aluminum” consists of aluminum salts, which is not the same thing.

Is it still a lie if you don’t know any better?

Under-Reporting of Adverse Drug Reactions –
A Systematic Review

Lorna Hazell and Saad A.W. Shakir

(There are two Ls in Hazell – my bad)

The paper is listed in PubMed.

there is a difference between being exposed to something and having it injected directly into you bloodstream.

No vaccine is injected “directly into your bloodstream”.

Rick~ actually the most deadly form of mercury is in it’s vapor form, inhaling it. As I said before, lead isn’t dangerous if you just hold it in your hand but ingest it, it can kill ya. Sticking your fingers in anti freeze wont kill you either, but swallow it, you’re dead. Vaccines are not jabbed into your blood stream, either. It’s jabbed into muscle. Interesting how you lead people to believe vaccines are given intravenously. Totally false, however the things you eat, touch and breathe ALL end up in your blood stream. It’s kind of how the body works if you weren’t aware of that and what makes environmental exposure so impoertant. I also didn’t say you sited VAERS. You, ANB nor I brought it up to begin with. If you scroll back you’ll of course see who did.

Just because something isn’t injected doesn’t mean that it’s not immunogenic (think about the the oral rotavirus or polio vaccines or the intranasal flu vaccine). The M cells which overly Peyer’s patches in the intestine are readily breached as your body constantly samples antigens from the environment. Local responses in the gut or upper respiratory tract quickly become systemic, as B cells, T cells and antigen presenting cells are highly mobile.

No vaccine is injected directly into the bloodstream; vaccines are injected either into the
muscles or into subcutaneous tissue, where antigen presenting cells in local lymph nodes readily sample the antigens. That’s not much different than what goes on after oral or intranasal inoculation of vaccines.

Did I EVER say that any vaccines were injected intravenously?
YEAH, I didn’t think so.
Some of the vaccine does go directly into the bloodstream, which is why you bleed a little bit when you get a shot.
And where do you think the vaccine goes after it has been injected into muscles or into subcutaneous tissue? Every muscle or skin cell in connected to a blood vessel. The bloodstream is the transport system for everything in the body.
If the shot is given on the shoulder, the nearest lymph nodes are in the armpit and around the collar bone. And there are no lymph nodes anywhere close to the butt, where many children are get their shots, so it needs the bloodstream to get it there.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=8265
With a subcutaneous injection, a needle is inserted just under the skin. A drug (for example, insulin) can then be delivered into the subcutaneous tissues. After the injection, the drug moves into small blood vessels and the bloodstream.

Rick~ let’s not split hairs. What you exactly said was “Sandy, there is a difference between being exposed to something and having it injected directly into you bloodstream” Now you didn’t say ‘some’ goes directly since you bleed. Are you twisting your own words now? You need to be a little more clear, some of us are literal readers!

But again, the things you eat, touch and breathe ALL end up in your blood stream. It’s kind of how the body works if you weren’t aware of that and what makes environmental exposure so important. Your point about the blood stream then was what?

Rick~ let’s not split hairs. What you exactly said was “Sandy, there is a difference between being exposed to something and having it injected directly into you bloodstream” Now you didn’t say ‘some’ goes directly since you bleed, which is it?

But again, the things you eat, touch and breathe ALL end up in your blood stream. It’s kind of how the body works if you weren’t aware of that and what makes environmental exposure so important. Your point about the blood stream then was what?

Rick~ let’s not split hairs. What you exactly said was “Sandy, there is a difference between being exposed to something and having it injected directly into you bloodstream” Now you didn’t say ‘some’ goes directly since you bleed. Which is it that you meant?

But again, the things you eat, touch and breathe ALL end up in your blood stream. It’s kind of how the body works if you weren’t aware of that and what makes environmental exposure so important. Your point about the blood stream then was what?

Rick~ let’s not split hairs. What you exactly said was “Sandy, there is a difference between being exposed to something and having it injected directly into you bloodstream” Now you didn’t say ‘some’ goes directly since you bleed. Which exactly is it that you meant?

But again, the things you eat, touch and breathe ALL end up in your blood stream. It’s kind of how the body works if you weren’t aware of that and what makes environmental exposure so important. Your point about the blood stream then was what?

Rick~ What you exactly said was “Sandy, there is a difference between being exposed to something and having it injected directly into you bloodstream” Now you didn’t say ‘some’ goes directly since you bleed. Which is it that you meant? What you said first, or what you said last?

But again, the things you eat, touch and breathe ALL end up in your blood stream. It’s kind of how the body works if you weren’t aware of that and what makes environmental exposure so important. Your point about the blood stream then was what?

Rick~ What you exactly said was “Sandy, there is a difference between being exposed to something and having it injected directly into you bloodstream” Now you didn’t say ‘some’ goes directly since you bleed. Which is it that you meant? What you said first, or what you said last?

But again, the things you eat, touch and breathe ALL end up in your blood stream. It’s kind of how the body works if you weren’t aware of that and what makes environmental exposure so important. Your point about the blood stream then was what?

What you exactly said was “Sandy, there is a difference between being exposed to something and having it injected directly into you bloodstream” Now you didn’t say ‘some’ goes directly since you bleed. Which is it that you meant? What you said first, or what you said last?

But again, the things you eat, touch and breathe ALL end up in your blood stream. It’s kind of how the body works if you weren’t aware of that and what makes environmental exposure so important. Your point about the blood stream then was what?

Again, the things you eat, touch and breathe ALL end up in your blood stream. It’s kind of how the body works if you weren’t aware of that and what makes environmental exposure so important. Your point about the blood stream then was what?

“Directly into the bloodstream” sounds so much scarier. Like saying vaccines have anti-freeze.

Mr. Wonderful, why not just stick to the facts? I mean, if you really think you are right, then why the need to make stuff up?

Mr. Wonderful, I drank a beer last night. Did I pour it “directly into my bloodstream”? By your definition I did.

Face it – “directly into the bloodstream” sounds scarier than “injected IM”. That’s why you worded it that way.

ANB
Aluminum and aluminum salts are still chemically aluminum. The chemical symbol for both is Al.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pel88/7429-90A.html

Sandy, I think you left something out in your reply.
What I said was “And where do you think the vaccine goes after it has been injected into muscles or into subcutaneous tissue? Every muscle or skin cell is connected to a blood vessel. The bloodstream is the transport system for everything in the body.”
Are you picking and choosing again?
NOT everything you eat, breathe or touch gets into your bloodstream.
If you touched ANB’s beer can or bottle, what part of it would get into your bloodstream? The paint? The glass?
When you breathe, not everything you inhale is transferred from the air into the lung tissue and the bloodstream.
Not everything you eat is absorbed in your intestines. You can prove that the next time you eat some corn.

Rick~ you’d think in all the glitchy site mess you’d not mistake my point by bringing up corn. My earlier examples of danerous things like lead and anti freeze.

Fact still remains, you’re going for shock value. It didn’t work

ABN, Drinking something would not fit my definition. If you stuck an IV needle in your arm and poured the beer into the tube all the beer would go directly into you bloodstream. However, if you drank it the way a normal person would, SOME of it would be absorbed through your digestive system.

Sandy, You speak of shock value. Would that be like the shock value the government and Pharma placed on Avian Flu and now Swine Flu?
Remember, or have you read about the 1976 Swine Flu “pandemic”? One person died from the the flu. Twentyfive people died from the side effects of the vaccine. And then there were all those cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome.

Sandy said ” you’d think in all the glitchy site mess you’d not mistake my point by bringing up corn. My earlier examples of danerous things like lead and anti freeze.”
Did you mean “glitchy site mess” or “glitchy cite mess”?
And in your second almost sentence, don’t you need a verb in there?

Aluminum and aluminum salts are still chemically aluminum. The chemical symbol for both is Al.

The chemical symbol for aluminum salts is Al? Are you sure about that?

Chlorine and table salt are still “chemically chlorine”. Fluorine is a corrosive gas, yet its atoms are present in fluoride, a key ingredient in most toothpastes. For that matter water is “chemically hydrogen” by your definition. Or is it “chemicaly oxygen”?

Could it be that an element’s properties change when bonded to other elements? Is that why chlorine gas burns the lungs, but chlorine and sodium, when combined, make french fries fun to eat?

Aluminum is the third most common element on the planet. If it was so deadly, then why is there life on our planet?

Or could it be that dose makes the poison?

ANB, You said “There is not antifreeze in vaccines”. Can you prove that there is no antifreeze in ANY vaccine or that there has never been any antifreeze in ANY older vaccines?

Rick~ Lisa conveniently started a new topic on the H1N1 flu, maybe you’d want to head over there and express your thoughts? Or do you often just enjoy switching topics an a attempt to get others off topic? In case you forgot, we’re talking about your comment ““Sandy, there is a difference between being exposed to something and having it injected directly into you bloodstream”

I also need not repair what I wrote. I said it exactly the way I meant. I’m sorry you’re confused by it, and that you’re trying to twist the intended meaning. It really takes away from the constructive conversation, really. Less people pay attention when that happens.

Why don’t you show us proof there is anti freeze in vaccines?

ABN, table salt is sodium chloride, NOT sodium chlorine. And I wouldn’t know about the french fry thing. I prefer mine with vinegar.
Ever heard of aluminum toxicity?
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20071207.htm
“No living systems use aluminum as part of a biochemical process. It has a tendency to accumulate in the brain and, to a lesser extent, in the bones. It is considerably less toxic than mercury, arsenic, lead or cadmium, but it appears to be more persistent than any of them. The danger is one that only manifests itself over long periods of time.”
Unless you spend a lot of time chewing on beer cans, older house siding or aircraft fuselages you won’t injest aluminum.

My comment about H1N1 and H5N1 weren’t used to switch topics. They were in response to your comment about scare tactics.

Actually when you look into elements of the periodic tables you have to find the components of parts. We don’t breath pure oxygen. There is a different element code for aluminum salts vs aluminum would have different element parts. H20 for water isn’t just hydrogen or oxygen. Pure oxygen has a different element code then the oxygen we breath. Pure oxygen is explosive where the air we breath isn’t as flammable.

What you are calling “prue oxygen” is what we breathe. Oxygen forms a molecule of two oxygen atoms, so it is always found as O2.
And it is not explosive. Oxygen is needed for combustion, aka very rapid oxygenation. If a fuel is burning, wood, paper or whatever and a large supply of oxygen is introduced, the fuel will burn very quickly. Oxygen itself is not a fuel.

momof3, Here is the periodic table. I can’t seem to find these “other” element codes you mentioned for aluminum salts and the oxegen we breathe.
1 – H – Hydrogen
2 – He – Helium
3 – Li – Lithium
4 – Be – Beryllium
5 – B – Boron
6 – C – Carbon
7 – N – Nitrogen
8 – O – Oxygen
9 – F – Fluorine
10 – Ne – Neon
11 – Na – Sodium
12 – Mg – Magnesium
13 – Al – Aluminum, Aluminium(British spelling.)
14 – Si – Silicon
15 – P – Phosphorus
16 – S – Sulfur
17 – Cl – Chlorine
18 – Ar – Argon
19 – K – Potassium
20 – Ca – Calcium
21 – Sc – Scandium
22 – Ti – Titanium
23 – V – Vanadium
24 – Cr – Chromium
25 – Mn – Manganese
26 – Fe – Iron
27 – Co – Cobalt
28 – Ni – Nickel
29 – Cu – Copper
30 – Zn – Zinc
31 – Ga – Gallium
32 – Ge – Germanium
33 – As – Arsenic
34 – Se – Selenium
35 – Br – Bromine
36 – Kr – Krypton
37 – Rb – Rubidium
38 – Sr – Strontium
39 – Y – Yttrium
40 – Zr – Zirconium
41 – Nb – Niobium
42 – Mo – Molybdenum
43 – Tc – Technetium
44 – Ru – Ruthenium
45 – Rh – Rhodium
46 – Pd – Palladium
47 – Ag – Silver
48 – Cd – Cadmium
49 – In – Indium
50 – Sn – Tin
51 – Sb – Antimony
52 – Te – Tellurium
53 – I – Iodine
54 – Xe – Xenon
55 – Cs – Cesium
56 – Ba – Barium
57 – La – Lanthanum
58 – Ce – Cerium
59 – Pr – Praseodymium
60 – Nd – Neodymium
61 – Pm – Promethium
62 – Sm – Samarium
63 – Eu – Europium
64 – Gd – Gadolinium
65 – Tb – Terbium
66 – Dy – Dysprosium
67 – Ho – Holmium
68 – Er – Erbium
69 – Tm – Thulium
70 – Yb – Ytterbium
71 – Lu – Lutetium
72 – Hf – Hafnium
73 – Ta – Tantalum
74 – W – Tungsten
75 – Re – Rhenium
76 – Os – Osmium
77 – Ir – Iridium
78 – Pt – Platinum
79 – Au – Gold
80 – Hg – Mercury
81 – Tl – Thallium
82 – Pb – Lead
83 – Bi – Bismuth
84 – Po – Polonium
85 – At – Astatine
86 – Rn – Radon
87 – Fr – Francium
88 – Ra – Radium
89 – Ac – Actinium
90 – Th – Thorium
91 – Pa – Protactinium
92 – U – Uranium
93 – Np – Neptunium
94 – Pu – Plutonium
95 – Am – Americium
96 – Cm – Curium
97 – Bk – Berkelium
98 – Cf – Californium
99 – Es – Einsteinium
100 – Fm – Fermium
101 – Md – Mendelevium
102 – No – Nobelium
103 – Lr – Lawrencium
104 – Rf – Rutherfordium
105 – Db – Dubnium
106 – Sg – Seaborgium
107 – Bh – Bohrium
108 – Hs – Hassium
109 – Mt – Meitnerium
110 – Ds – Darmstadtium
111 – Rg – Roentgenium
112 – Cp – Copernicium
113 – Uut – Ununtrium
114 – Uuq – Ununquadium
115 – Uup – Ununpentium
116 – Uuh – Ununhexium
117 – Uus – Ununseptium
118 – Uuo – Ununoctium

We breathe air that is 21 percent oxygen. You might think that breathing 100 percent oxygen would be good for us — but actually it can be harmful. pure oxygen is generally bad, and sometimes toxic.if you breathed 100 percent oxygen at normal air pressure for 48 hours, fluid accumulates in the lungs and the epithelial cells lining the alveoli. In addition, the pulmonary capillaries get damaged, Fluid accumulates, Mucus plugs local areas of collapsed alveoli — a condition called atelectasis. The oxygen trapped in the plugged alveoli gets absorbed into the blood, no gas is left to keep the plugged alveoli inflated, and they collapse. Mucus plugs are normal, but they are cleared by coughing. If alveoli become plugged while breathing air, the nitrogen trapped in the alveoli keeps them inflated. The total volume of exchangeable air in the lung decreases by 17 percent. Oxygen in pure form- the kind we as medical professionals use every day- can be a dangerous substance. O2 is regulated by the FDA as a drug and requires a prescription- “USP Oxygen. Dispense only on order of a Physician.”

Air contains 21% oxygen. Oxygen for breathing problems the O2 tank contains oxygen that is 99% pure.
For each liter of oxygen they are on, add 3%. For instance if a person is on 3 liters of oxygen, they are breathing approximately 30% oxygen.

The pressure pure oxygen contains is much more combustible thus more explosive!!! Never said it was a fuel, quit twisting things around!!

I am aware of the table, you have to put these elements together to make others. H20 is water and it’s not listed, reason that is because they have formulated parts to make it up. This table shows what each element code stands for, then you have to break the code down to find each element. h2o is 2 parts hydrogen 1 part oxygen.

Sorry, we don’t breathe pure oxygen. What ever we do breathe is full of nasties like well, allergens, car exhausts, let’s see, what else?? Manufacturing plants pollution, and that neighbor always spray painting over there. I could have sworn I read where an HBOT blew up, with people in it?? Oh yes, a boy and his grandmother.

A method for manufacturing an aluminum salt solution includes manufacturing an aluminum salt solution by using, as a raw material, an aluminum hydroxide having T-C (total carbon amount) of 0.04 mass% or less and T-Na2O (total Na2O amount) of less than 0.3 mass%, which is obtained by a Bayer process.

Sandy, We don’t breathe oxygen. We breathe air.
Dry air contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and about 1% water vapor.
And did the HBOT chamber blow up because the oxygen ignited or because the pressure blow out a panel of the chamber.

Momof3
Water H2O is not an element. Anything that is made up of one or atoms of different elements is called a compound molecule. Oxygen in nature is always found as O2, a simple molecule.
Na2O is Sodium oxide.
The Bayer procsss is used to refine bauxite ore to produce alumina. Bauxite is the main source of aluminum. The Bayer process is the first step in extracting pure aluminum from the ore.

Mr. Wonderful,

I was explaining to you how they take the elements to form others. I was trying to be nice and explain this, but at least I got you attention seeing that you avoided things I have asked you in the past!! Oxygen and hydrogen are elements and they do make water!!! Point being that elements combined make compounds or substance. If I recall your the one who said that we breath pure oxygen not Sandy.

Anti-freeze is ethylene glycol.

Propylene glycol is used as a moisturizer in medicines, cosmetics, food, toothpaste, mouth wash, etc. It is also used in some vaccines.

It appears that anti-vaccine activists think vaccines contain anti-freeze because Jenny McCarthy is easily confused by chemicals that have similar sounding names.

McCarthy’s science advisor, Dr. Jay Gordon, has acknowledged that vaccines don’t contain anti-freeze. Unfortunately, McCarthy never got the memo.

momof3
“The pressure pure oxygen contains is much more combustible thus more explosive!!! Never said it was a fuel, quit twisting things around!!”
ACTUALLY, you did.
You said “Pure oxygen is explosive where the air we breath isn’t as flammable”. (Post 562).
Oxygen doesn’t contain pressure. It may be stored in a container under pressure. And even that pressure would not make it combustible by itself.

and you sad in post 563
What you are calling “prue oxygen” is what we breathe

both guilty of not making ourselves clear as to what we are saying. Then again I was also trying to post with a child having a problem at the same time.

ANB ~ Jenny McCarthy didn’t start the story about antifreeze in vaccines. The story has been around since the late ’90s. Jock Doubleday mentioned it in his challenge to Pharma execs in 2001.
And guess what. Propylene Glycol is an antifreeze.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ant.aspx

AMSOIL Antifreeze and Engine Coolant (ANT)
Safe, Universal Propylene Glycol Antifreeze
So THANK YOU for proving that there is antifreeze in vaccines.

What I said in post 563 was What you are calling “prue oxygen” is what we breathe. Oxygen forms a molecule of two oxygen atoms, so it is always found as O2.
I did not say it was the only thing we breathe in. What I was saying is that oxygen in the air is pure oxygen. The other stuff in the air may be impurities, but the oxygen itself is pure.

NO I said that the oxygen we breath is different then pure oxygen. meaning we don’t breath pure oxygen!!! Man, you are so literal..geesh

Mr. Rick Wonderful, what does oxygen have to do with anything anyway? You sure can lengthen a thread over nothing that pertains to anything at all.

If you want to argue the difference between aluminum and aluminum salts, oxygen or air which we breathe, vaccines jabbed directly into the bloodstream (they’re not) and anti freeze, well, I just have to wonder why? Wouldn’t you think we could have a conversation more productively on something which you know about? Or at least read what you’re writing so we all can understand just what you’re meaning really was, this time? momof3 was only giving you examples, which in turn you turned in into who knows what and for what purpose, The fact is, you have those element tables wrong and she explained quite well.

ANB is also correct. In the 1990′s was the MMR theory. Nothing else. Thimerosal, aluminum salts and anti freeze along with formaldehyde was not yet born until the MMR was debunked; came Thimerosal. Thimerosal was debunked, then came anti freeze along with formaldehyde and yes, McCarthy is a large factor in those myths.

Sandy, the MMR and Therosal have not been debunked. Neither is the only cause of autism, but both can cause autism. What you call “myths” are beliefs based in science and in what parents have witnessed in their children. Don’t blame Jenny McCarthy — she is a voice for what many have independently concluded.

Sandy, I didn’t start the oxygen topic, momof3 did that.
Although I would like to know what kind of oxygen she things we do breathe.
Dan Burton held hearings on thimerosal from 1998 to 2003. Andy Wakefield’s report also came out in 1998. Doubleday made his offer in 2001.
Generation rescue was started in 2005 by the Handleys. McCarthy didn’t get involved with them until a couple of years later.
You really need to get your facts in the right order.

Sandy, are you by any chance the same Sandy that’s on Sponge Bob?

That’s odd, my facts do not match yours? I’m sure when you get it all figured out, you’ll be sure to let us all know, right? No sense going further since this long been past functional conversation.

Wow, Sandy, that was quite a come-back!

Oops – I shouldn’t have used a hyphen – it’s just “comeback” which Webster’s defines as, “a sharp or witty reply: retort”.

Oh, never mind about the Sponge Bob question. My daughter just explained to me that those are just cartoon characters — they’re not real people and they can’t blog — so that couldn’t be you.

Et Tu Brute.
FINIS

I love watching Sponge Bob too. But do you now the difference between the Bubonice Plague and the Pneumonic Plague?