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Is It Possible to be a Vaccine-Autism Moderate?

By July 6, 2009

There seems to be no end in sight to the debate over whether vaccines, in one way or another, actually cause children to become autistic. In fact, over the past three years, the debate has actually intensified, with believers on both sides lining up on opposite sides of "town," virtual pitchforks and torches in hand.

Throughout, I've found myself pummeled by both sides, as I attempt to take the position of a "vaccine moderate."

What does this mean?

On the one hand, I acknowledge readily that the vast preponderance of science-based evidence makes it highly unlikely that there is a consistent, large-scale direct connection between vaccines and autism. No, I don't think that kids who begin developing autistic symptoms six months after a vaccination are likely to be vaccine damaged. No, I don't think that an intolerance to wheat or dairy proves anything relative to vaccines (though of course I think it's a great idea to take a child with food intolerances off the offending food!). What's more, I am certain that any risk to the general population from vaccines is less than the risk from a resurgence of diseases like polio and diphtheria.

On the other hand... knowing that there are risks and benefits related all medical treatments, and knowing that there are children who are badly injured by vaccines overall, I believe that a very small number of autism-related claims of vaccine injury are probably for real. I suspect it is possible to create safer vaccines, to revisit the vaccine schedule with potential injuries in mind, and to discuss vaccinations intelligently with concerned parents. I can't understand what stands in the way of a well-conceived study that (at least in theory) shows that unvaccinated children are diagnosed with autism at the same rate as vaccinated children. I'd love to see some research into possible vulnerabilities that could lead to vaccine injuries. And I am baffled by the apparent unwillingness of the medical mainstream to seriously investigate credible anecdotal evidence of vaccine-related regression.

In short, I see reason on all sides of the issue -- though I stand squarely in neither camp.

As I've stated these perspectives over time, I've found surprisingly little support. I'm not sure whether that's because "vaccine moderates" tend not to write much about their moderate views (compared to those with stronger opinions) or whether I'm really in the minority.

What's your perspective? Is it possible to be a vaccine-autism moderate?

July 6, 2009 at 10:15 am
(1) Etai Adam says:

FYI, there have been several studies demonstrating that unvaccinated children develop autism at the same rate as vaccinated children. This link goes to an admittedly biased link (if you can consider someone agreeing with the body of scientific literature to be biased) but it cites studies from peer-reviewed journals and demonstrates results that have been reproduced:


The best evidence would be, of course, a double-blind, randomized, and placebo controlled study comparing two groups of children, one of which would be given vaccines. The reason this study has not been and will not be performed is that studies have to be approved by ethics committees, and leaving one of your cohorts vulnerable to easily preventable diseases is unethical. So we’re stuck with retrospective studies, but they point consistently in one direction.

I understand that the medical literature isn’t exactly reader-friendly, but I think a lot of the “controversy” could have been avoided if people with soap boxes researched their opinions more thoroughly.

July 6, 2009 at 10:58 am
(2) passionlessDrone says:

Hi Lisa –

In large part, your position is very much like my own. So rest assured, you are not alone. There is plenty of room to admit that while vaccines are a great invention that are very good at preventing disease, our understanding of their other possible effects of a more aggressive vaccination schedule are still nascent.

“On the one hand, I acknowledge readily that the vast preponderance of science-based evidence makes it highly unlikely that there is a consistent, large-scale direct connection between vaccines and autism.”

Unfortunately, this sentence permeates this discussion, but what it really ought to say is:

“On the one hand, I acknowledge readily that the vast preponderance of science-based evidence makes it highly unlikely that there is a consistent, large-scale direct connection between the MMR vaccine or exposure to thimerosal within vaccines and autism.”

We simply haven’t studied vaccines all that well. Eventually you can get anyone in the evidence based medicine camp to admit to this reality if you push them hard enough, but for the most part, they are OK with letting this large implicit loophole slide through for reasons that I’m not sure I understand. The post by Etei Adam is an excellent example, his link is only about the MMR vaccine, and yet, somehow, this has been transposed to imply that the children who didn’t get the MMR were ‘unvaccinated’; a claim with utility only if our entire vaccination schedule was comprised of the MMR. It is either intellectual laziness or intentional deception on the scale of claiming that there is antifreeze in vaccines.

“What’s more, I am certain that any risk to the general population from vaccines is less than the risk from a resurgence of diseases like polio and diphtheria.”

This is, to my mind, a false dichotomy and mandates an all or nothing view of vaccination; unfortunately, some of what we are learning recently is that there may be time dependent effects of robust activations of the immune system, such that doing the same thing at one time leads to much different end results than doing something a different (later time). For example, you might want to check out:

Early-life immune challenge: defining a critical window for effects on adult responses to immune challenge

Where the authors report that animals exposed to an early life immune challenge had differential immunological responses into adulthood depending on when the immune challenge occurred. There are several more showing a similar time dependent effect. If a subset of our children are experiencing a persistent immunomodulatory effects of the process of vaccination at times earlier than the age of the MMR, our existing suite of research is powerless to unveil it.

Curiously enough, differential immunological
measurements of children with autism are widely documented, and include a much more robust innate immune response and abnormal inflammatory cytokine profiles.
Given that, we may not need to have a resurgence of diseases like polio and diptheria in order to craft a vaccination schedule that reduces unwanted side effects; but to get there, we need to first acknowledge that our understanding of side effects is largely based on either immediate reactions (extremely high fevers, seizures, or deaths), or studies that evaluate individual vaccines in isolation over longer time periods. Very few people seem to want to admit this.

I appreciate your position of moderation.

- pD

July 6, 2009 at 11:23 am
(3) Sandy says:

The interesting thing on any one person’s position is it is hard to follow at times, since theories of what exactly it is about vaccines that causes autism changes. It’s also difficult to look at the whole picture when so many only want you to look at their one instance of occurrence. There really is more to vaccines than the autism connection.

I think there is no reason at all why you or any one else cant express your own views and positions without backlash, after all, regardless of this site you do have a right to your own opinion regardless of where you’re basing it from. I think the reason why there is no end to this debate is obvious, but even if there was the most convincing studies provided, I don’t think it would end. It seems to me more people are interested in pushing their opinions over other’s and one just has to learn not to take it personally. Most times people are using such sites as a venting arena and if they used such energy where it was needed most, maybe there’s be more answers.

July 6, 2009 at 12:43 pm
(4) Harold L Doherty says:

Hello Lisa

I consider myself a vaccine autism moderate.

I started out accepting the official view that a link between vaccines and autism had been DISproven. I no longer hold to that view although I also do not believe that a link has been proven either. My current perspective is that, as indicated by people like Teresa Binstock and Dr. Bernadine Healy, investigation of environmental causes, including vaccines, was discouraged (no I don’t count the epidemiological studies).

Apart from those named above Dr. Julie Gerberding has said that studies of vaccinated and unvaccinated populations could and should be done. Dr. Duane Alexander has also said such studies could be one. Dr. Jon Poling has called for more studies of environmental causes including possible vaccine causes.

My position is a moderate. I would like to see the type of research suggested by Dr.’s Healy, Gerberding, Alexander and Poling. Such studies are now included in the current Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee Strategic Research Plan.

In addition to seeking more research I am also disgusted with the facile dismissal by authorities of parental observations of the onset of autism symptoms in their children post vaccination. It is easy to say that it is just coincidence but making that statement does not prove that it is coincidence either.

Even worse is the characterization of parents in the media as being hysterical, selfish etc. because they fight for a better life for their children which in their view means addressing vaccine induced autism injury.

July 6, 2009 at 1:11 pm
(5) Bill says:

You are a victim of political correctness. We see this on many issues that should be black and white, no middle ground, like for instance, abortion, global warming or affirmative action. If you have to rationalize part of your reasoning, then you are on the “slippery slope”. When you try to compromise and stay in the gray area in the middle, you end up in logical conundrums, many of which end up in from of courts.
It is even worse within the Autism/Asperger’s community; I have Asperger’s and I honestly do not care who I offend, especially in an anonymous forum like this, so expect frank comments on any given subject. Never forget that since essential autism/Asperger’s is inherited, many of the parents of autistic children out there will also exhibit many of the Asperger qualities of perseverance, obsession and disregard/disrespect for other people’s opinions. Honestly, when I see you foundering in the middle ground, I simply perceive you to be neurotypical, a slightly pejorative and condescending statement which recognizes not everyone is capable of adsorbing and analyzing information to the same degree.
I’m not going to hate you for being that way, and I am not going to describe you as “suffering” from neurotypicalness. But don’t expect a lot of people to join you in the middle.
Never assume the majority is right, especially if the liberal media has gone in hook line and sinker. Sometimes even the most simple logical arguments escape these narrow minded people. Take CO2 in the air. If I were an evil genius who could have my minions find every fossil fuel which has ever been created on our planet, and burn it to return it to the air as CO2, I could not cause runaway global warming; all I could do is return the CO2 to where it was during a time when plants and oceans were thriving, and I would still only have returned a tiny fraction of the CO2 to the air, because to return it all, I would have find every bit of calcium carbonate, i.e. limestone, marble, chalk and coquina which underlay our oceans and continents and release the carbon, a clearly impossible task.

July 6, 2009 at 1:26 pm
(6) passionlessDrone says:

“Sometimes even the most simple logical arguments escape these narrow minded people. ”


Imagine I had a campfire that I blew on once an hour for ten thousand hours. Then one hour, I decided to use compressed air to blow ten thousand breaths on it all at once. Would there be a difference in what happened to the fire?

The problem with carbon release isn’t just about volume, it’s about timeframes and rates of release. Our rate of sequestration has remained relatively constant over the past couple hundred of million years or so. On the other hand, our rate of release has increased exponentially in the past hundred years.

In your ‘simple logical argument’ you are releasings tens of millions of years of sequestration in a hundred years and acting like everything else is equal. It isn’t.

- pD

- pD

July 6, 2009 at 1:38 pm
(7) Jen says:

Bill, I don’t think she is a victim of political correctness at all- rather a thoughtful person who has her own opinions that are unhindered by her emotions. I happen to agree with her- and my son is autistic. And I am on the spectrum too, with ADD (and yes, I believe it’s part of the spectrum because I think more like a person with autism than I do an NT). My son is a genetic autistic, but I have friends whose children are by all means vaccine injured. I agree with Lisa, that vaccines need to be looked at for safety and the schedule revisited, I just don’t think 36 jabs are necessary as compared to the 15 that we had growing up. Some kids are born with autism and other spectrum disorders, which are now more understood and more apt to be identified than in years past, but I also believe that there is a rise in children who react very badly to today’s vaccine schedule and/or the virus itself and/or whatever the virus is suspended in. And I am NOT trying to be politically correct- I see valid points on both sides of the arguement and I just don’t think that either side is completely right or wrong.

July 6, 2009 at 1:57 pm
(8) Were's the truth says:

Etai and Lisa. The science you refer to is not science at all. It is nothing but statistical manipulation done by people involved with the vaccine program. Here is a perfect example of a so-called vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study.

The Madsen Study (Denmark) was criticized for questionable data collation. It was implied although not actually written that it compared prevalance rates for unvaccinated and vaccinated children, but that was
not the case.

There were five scenarios in the data Madsen looked at:

Vaccinated with MMR, subsequently developed autism.

Not vaccinated with MMR, subsequently developed autism

Vaccinated with MMR but determined to have been autistic prior to the receipt of MMR

Vaccinated with MMR, did not develope autism

Unvaccinated with MMR, did not develope autism.

It is important to note that Madsen did not actually examine any children, but simply took records from the Danish Registry for Autism and accept the data as accurate.

For reason unknown to any but the Study’s principles, the data was not collated into 5 categories to see what prevalance rates would be determined, but into only two: vaccinated and unvaccinated with MMR. And here is the part that remains critical to this debate

- Those children who did indeed receive the MMR but were determined (by whom?) to have been autistic prior to the administration of the MMR at 12-15 mos were placed into the unvaccinated category.

This had the effect of goosing the prevalance rate for the unvaccinated category upwards till the difference between the two would have fallen below the level deemed to be statistically significant.

Madsen has subsequently refused to release his raw data when aksed so his findings could be confirmed.

July 6, 2009 at 3:08 pm
(9) Sandy says:

For once it would be nice to have a study where we’re all on the same page. There cant be one study done with the mind set of 36 vaccines when by no means is every child getting 36 as Generation Rescue keeps advertising. One of those 36 is a voluntary pre natal. Even if there was 36 vaccines, the understanding of autism vaccine relation isn’t at the end of those 36, it’s long before.

The interesting thing is about the world, is more and more things are increasing, including germs and viruses and the on-going need for new medical treatments. We cant look back to what we had as children since our children are exposed to much more than what I ever was. There was a study out last week about the higher rates of those with celiac which may account for those kids on the GF diet and it having a good effect. Looking at the rates of celiac in the 1950′s, these days it’s 4.5 times higher today.

As for that Danish study, it is the only country that maintains such medical records of the people who live there. If they held such records in the USA, I’d imagine people would be outraged. Because that country holds every speck of medical history and records unlike any other place, it was a good source for such a study. But that study was just looking at the MMR.

If any researched celiac, it would be interesting to have a study of those, considering the higher rates of it today, to those with adverse effects of vaccines.

July 6, 2009 at 4:48 pm
(10) Stan says:


I really don’t think you can stay in the BASIC middle ground on this one: ie to say, either vaccines have something to do with ASD or they do not. I can appreciate your concerns, about not wanting childhood diseases to return if vaccines ARE implicated in this terrible assault on our children (as there is much evidence to infer). But the answer to that conundrum surely is for the drug industry to have to come up with safer vaccines – and feel the pressure to, from an awakened citizenry, mad as hell and not going to take it any longer.

If it’s even possible to ‘green’ them. They have, basically – in order to elicit an inflammatory response – toxic materials in them. (Including an appalling range of food proteins, thus being behind the huge allergy/anaphylactic concern of our day and age.) Plus their contaminants, including mycoplasma and Myelin Basic Protein; both involved in a plethora of neuro-autoimmune disorders, and thus seeding these conditions into the population. So we’ll have to see what the industry can come up with, in the place of the current batch of illness-purveyors. But we’re not going to get to that better day by pretending that vaccines are not implicated in a whole host of iatrogenic conditions, just because we fear the ramifications.

And anyway, polio can be dealt with via large doses of vitamin C; measles with vitamin A/cod liver oil; the DPT triad with, among other substances, colloidal silver; and the list, of nature-based anti-virals and -bacterials, goes on. So no, we would not be devoid of defences if the vaccines our keepers have developed for us had to take some time to be retooled, to a higher level of expertise and consciousness.

Look for that day. And help it come about, by keeping the pressure on our officials. Not letting them off the hook, with concerned timidity. Be firm. You’ve got enough common sense to know what the truth is here. And the truth is not what we have been fed, by interests vested in the status quo.

July 6, 2009 at 8:39 pm
(11) Sullivan says:

And I am baffled by the apparent unwillingness of the medical mainstream to seriously investigate credible anecdotal evidence of vaccine-related regression.

They have. They looked very closely at the anecdotal evidence that MMR and thimerosal caused regression.

When the science showed these were not causing the “epidemic” of autism, the anecdotes changed. Prime example, Generation Rescue changing from “it’s all mercury” to “it’s vaccines”.

At the same time, these groups lack the honesty to acknowledge that MMR and thimerosal are off the table. They are in full denialist mode, attacking any research and any researcher that opposes those views.

They also fail to acknowledge that those are MMR and thimerosal are the main topics of vaccine-autism research precisely because they (groups like Generation Rescue) claimed those were the causes of vaccine-induced-autism. Now they act like there is some great conspiracy to block autism/vaccine research. They are doing a classic blameshift.

The real tragedy here is that groups like Autism Speaks, Generation Rescue, TACA, NAA–all these groups have wasted a great opportunity to help the kids with autism. By denying the existence of a large contingent of adults with autism, these groups have failed to prepare themselves and the world for this generation of autistics.

Is it possible to be a moderate on the question of vaccines causing autism? Yes. It is also possible to be a fence sitter.

It is possible to be a moderate on the question of the health risks involved in false information about vaccines? Yes. Is it a responsible position? No.

July 6, 2009 at 8:42 pm
(12) Sullivan says:

Wow, global warming denialism and treat polio with vitamin C and colloidal silver, all in one set of comments.

Any questions why I do not side with these people?

July 6, 2009 at 10:52 pm
(13) Sandy says:

Vitamin C and all the rest of that list was around when polio, measles and all the rest were in it’s prime. There’s a reason why vaccines were created/ invented in the first place and if all those nature-based remedies worked back then, they’d had not created/ invented vaccines. There is also such a thing of too high a dose of those nature-based items that can over tax the liver and kidneys and cause failures. Besides all of that, these things are highly contagious and mostly effect very young children and infants, thus giving large doses of vitamins, cod liver oil and what have you, could harm them besides the fact they had then contracted the illness from an infected person.

It’s comments as such that leads someone like me to comment. Those issues above are beyond the autism connection, it goes into leading others to believe that large amounts of vitamin C can avoid the maming effects of polio if contracted. That cod liver oil which has been used by every grand mother of generations past, will deal with the measles. I fany of that was true, we’d all been healthy way back when into this generation.

July 6, 2009 at 11:00 pm
(14) Lisa says:

Sullivan – I’m not aware of studies following at-risk babies to see if there are, in fact, documentable regressions immediately following vaccinations. I’d love to see a reference, if you have one.

Like everyone else, I’ve heard stories from friends and associates about their children regressing. But lacking documentation I can only say “uh huh,” and wonder to what degree their memories and records are accurate.

I simply don’t know.


July 7, 2009 at 1:40 pm
(15) jordynn says:

On regression, see this study:

Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2005 Aug;62(8):889-95. Validation of the phenomenon of autistic regression using home videotapes.

Werner E, Dawson G.
UW Autism Center and Department of Psychology and Psychiatry, University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195, USA. dawson@u.washington.edu

CONTEXT: To date, there has been no objective validation of the phenomenon of autistic regression early in life. OBJECTIVE: To validate parental report of autistic regression using behavioral data coded from home videotapes of children with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) vs typical development taken at 12 and 24 months of age. DESIGN: Home videotapes of 56 children’s first and second birthday parties were collected from parents of young children with ASD with and without a reported history of regression and typically developing children. Child behaviors were coded by raters blind to child diagnosis and regression history. A parent interview that elicited information about parents’ recall of early symptoms from birth was also administered. SETTING: Participants were recruited from a multidisciplinary study of autism conducted at a major university. PARTICIPANTS: Fifteen children with ASD with a history of regression, 21 children with ASD with early-onset autism, and 20 typically developing children and their parents participated. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Observations of children’s communicative, social, affective, repetitive behaviors, and toy play coded from videotapes of the toddlers’ first and second birthday parties. RESULTS: Analyses revealed that infants with ASD with regression show similar use of joint attention and more frequent use of words and babble compared with typical infants at 12 months of age. In contrast, infants with ASD with early onset of symptoms and no regression displayed fewer joint attention and communicative behaviors at 12 months of age. By 24 months of age, both groups of toddlers with ASD displayed fewer instances of word use, vocalizations, declarative pointing, social gaze, and orienting to name as compared with typically developing 24-month-olds. Parent interview data suggested that some children with regression displayed difficulties in regulatory behavior before the regression occurred. CONCLUSION: This study validates the existence of early autistic regression.

Note: other studies have questioned the use of birthday videotapes (as opposed to other contexts) to evaluate regression, i.e. J Autism Dev Disord. 2008 Jul;38(6):1047-58. Epub 2007 Nov 6. Birthday and non-birthday videotapes: the importance of context for the behavior of young children with autism.
Thorsen KL, Goldberg WA, Osann K, Spence MA.

July 7, 2009 at 5:14 pm
(16) Stan says:

“There’s a reason why vaccines were created/ invented in the first place and if all those nature-based remedies worked back then, they’d had not created/ invented vaccines.”
With all due respect, I think you’re failing to acknowledge something here. For example, on polio: Dr Fred Klenner of South Carolina was getting excellent results from his vitamin C treatment. But vitamin C is not patentable. And the colloidal silver example – that Sullivan rubbishes – is in the same vein: It was known in the late 30s as ‘the world’s greatest germ fighter’, until the discovery of penicillin; and the antibiotics story took over. Which are all patentable products, part of the armamentarium of the medical-pharmaceutical complex. Not to fault the whole of the allopathic medical profession: there are still some GPs around who know of the efficacy of vitamin A/cod liver oil in dealing with measles. But they have been sold on vaccines. And unfortunately it is taking parents to wake them up to the anecdotal reports and the studies which are evidencing that the risks of vaccines are far greater than they all have been led to believe.

And Sullivan; as for the MMR and thimerosal being “off the table”: keep reading. You might learn something. Just like those health practitioners who have sincerely believed what they have been told by their peers and journals, and are beginning to realize that there is far more to this story, of the link between vaccines and neurological & autoimmune conditions like ASD, than has been dreamt of in their philosophy. (And I include ‘autoimmune’ in that description particularly BECAUSE of the MMR: how its measles component in particular is associated with antibodies to MBP, which could well be due to the contamination of the vax with MBP from the chick embryo cells it is cultured on. The MBP antibodies fry the myelin sheathing of the cranial nerve systems, the vaccine measles virus in the damaged guts of kids with ASD travels to the brain, and voila: a perfect storm. ADEM as a PDD-NOS: part of the definition of an ASD.)

No; this story is not over yet. Not by a long shot. Unfortunately.

July 7, 2009 at 7:37 pm
(17) Connie says:

There may be plenty of “vaccine moderates,” but unfortunately their views are routinely censored at extremist sites such as Age of Autism. Surely there are at least a handful of AoA regulars who have misgivings about vaccines but who also look askance at people such as Andrew Moulden, the Geiers, and even Andrew Wakefield. But good luck getting your criticism of these individuals through the moderators at AoA — except perhaps to serve as a tackling dummy for everyone else to pile onto.

Meanwhile, AoA will publish comments from people who believe that the U.S. government is using vaccines as a form of population control, or that mothers are transmitting autism to their kids via breastmilk that was tainted by the vaccines the mothers themselves received as children.

Anti-vax sites are quickly losing credibility among the general public (even Readers’ Digest recently mocked the vaccine-autism theory), largely because they will not allow even the more moderate viewpoints a hearing, and because they will never admit to being wrong about anything, at any time, ever (see aforementioned reference to Moulden, Wakefield, and the Geiers).

July 7, 2009 at 8:21 pm
(18) Sandy says:

Stan~ I respect your opinion on vitamin C and cod liver oil. I am not sold on vaccines I just agree with the use of them for most people however I will never be sold on the use of vitamin C and cod liver oil as a substitute ‘prevention’ and the only reason why it’s not used today being due to it cant be a patent on it. I just don’t fully buy into that money-making-scamming- society via the Gov. Once you get some of these childhood diseases, you’re going to need that antibiotic as well.

If Dr Fred Klenner of South Carolina is (more like was) getting good results via polio, does that mean that virus is out there to tend to? We’re talking about prevention when it comes to vaccines, not once you have the virus what treatment you receive, which is what Klenner is about and going on in the 1950′s and the treatment after contracting polio.

We’re talking about prevention of getting polio. Prevention of getting mealses.

There’s is where so many people get confused with info offered, when one doesn’t specify exactly what the study was and it’s about treatment after the fact.

July 7, 2009 at 10:52 pm
(19) AutismNewsBeat says:

“I can’t understand what stands in the way of a well-conceived study that (at least in theory) shows that unvaccinated children are diagnosed with autism at the same rate as vaccinated children.”

It’s very simple: there aren’t enough totally unvaccinated children in the US and Canada to generate reliable data.

July 7, 2009 at 11:09 pm
(20) Sullivan says:

“And Sullivan; as for the MMR and thimerosal being “off the table”: keep reading. You might learn something. ”

I read a lot. A lot.

Funny how the best lawyers, the best test-cases and the best research that could be brought to the table on the MMR question were unable to convince the vaccine court special masters. “Not even close”, I believe they said.

People who won’t accept the science showing that they were wrong about MMR and thimerosal are in the way of progress for autism and public health.

July 7, 2009 at 11:27 pm
(21) Sullivan says:

Sullivan – I’m not aware of studies following at-risk babies to see if there are, in fact, documentable regressions immediately following vaccinations. I’d love to see a reference, if you have one.

To what end?

Children with autism undergo regressions. Statistically there will be regressions immediately following vaccinations.

If you will allow me to lecture, it isn’t “documentable” regressions you want, for that doesn’t prove causation. You want a documentable mechanism for regression caused by vaccines.

If you recall, the paper by the Cleveland Clinic/Kennedy Kreiger team showed regressions for, what, about 25 kids? Of which, only one, Hannah Poling, was even temporally related to vaccination. What if one of those kids had a vaccine immediately before the regression? One could claim vaccine injury, but it wouldn’t be true.

It is the mechanism that is missing. There is no biological plausibility put forward other than the vague “too many too soon” or “overwhelm the immune system”.

I do appreciate the fact that you state that there is no paper showing regressions in susceptible kids. The one paper that purports to discuss this was put forth by Andrew Wakefield–and it is very clear that was junk science of the worst sort.

July 7, 2009 at 11:42 pm
(22) Sandy says:

People should be aware of vitamin dangers. Over doses of Vitamin C can hinder metabolic activities in the body, and among other things and cause kidney stones. Colloidal silver, wouldn’t that be a heavy metal? It’s promoted to help many many different things although there’s hardly any studies to show it helps anything and if you take too much, your skin changes color. Cod liver oil contains both vitamin A and D and both have overdose risks and complications due to it.

July 8, 2009 at 12:24 am
(23) barbaraJ. says:

I’m a mom, a grandmom, and a greatgrandmom, I made sure my children had all of their shots. Around 1969 I started noticing hyper active behaviors in a few boys, maybe two in a class of 40 (yep huge classes that COULD BE managed effectively). Two children on medicine, it seemed so horrible!!I grew up post war with forty five children to a classroom and never had more than one , usually a boy, that seemed more rambunctious than the rest.Even that was rare, not always was there one. On our block we had families of five to seven children, and while we had one or two that sadly were either downs or mentally deficient, for the most part all were healthy. Hundreds of healthy kids in a two block area, that would make the news today. My oldest son, had a measle shot in 1966, he has crohns, no one else in my family has crohns.He was so sick from that shot, that I, as a young mother , naive as I was, told the doctor that the shot gave him crohns, he said, it was a coincidence. Yep, it took more than six months after the shot to develop, but I saw a difference in him, a deteriorating condition that affected not only his gut, but his behavior. He used a word, a nonsense word, over and over again, he “acted out”, by fifth grade, he had seven boys in his class that were considered behavioral problems. Seven! My grandson, age 13, was put on a shot schedule by his mom, no shots until two, and then she chose the ones she wanted, she had to sign that he had NO shots and was exempt by religios choice. She can’t tell that he has some, that would be illegal. He has fifteen boys in his class, we entertain them often, out of the fifteen each is off in some way. A few exhibit autistic symptoms, not one is really “right”. All are considered normal.Normal for today I guess? My grandson is in my opinion bright enough, yet he scores in the 95th percentile across the board in nationwide testing, 99th in math. Do I see him as this “genius”? NO! I see that most kids are damaged, more than anyone would ever believe, perhaps the 95 percent that scored beneath him. I thankfully don’t see this group as being profoundly disabled, but I see we have taken something from most. I have seen where some say unvaccinated children have autism at the same rate as vaccinated, I’ve never seen one. Where is this study? Why can’t we make vaccines safer, I believe they serve a wonderful purpose, but not when we are taking our children’s future from them . Researchers need to listen to mothers, they know their children , autism may be autoimmune not giving the “smoking gun” immediately clear picture,it takes time to develop.

July 8, 2009 at 3:57 am
(24) passionlessDrone says:

Hi Sullivan –

If you will allow me to lecture, it isn’t “documentable” regressions you want, for that doesn’t prove causation. You want a documentable mechanism for regression caused by vaccines.

The problem with this argument is that it mandates we have a complete understanding of regression, and indeed autism, before we can start to look for potential triggers.

It makes for good semantic fencing, but fares poorly under criticism. For example, what if someone were to further ask the lecturer to ellucidate on the particular mechanisms by which the mitochondrial disorder Hannah Poling is said to have actually caused her developmental regression, the answer might be that having mitochonrdial disorders in combination with stressfull situations during development leads to a transient problems with cellular energy production in the brain that has been associated with a loss of skills. Fair enough. But if we were then to further ask, why would having a such a transient problem with energy production lead to developmental loss and a permenant behavioral trajectory of autism, there is no firm answer awaiting us. We really don’t understand the mechanism of action of any developmental regression; even when we have reasonable agreement on the high level physiological cause.

It seems this rule is applied very selectively in this type of discussion. I could just as easily argue that we don’t have a documentable mechaism for autism being caused by having a mother that takes valporic acid. My statement would be completely true, we don’t understand why this causes roughly an eight times increase in risk of an autism diagnosis, just that it does (though we do have some ideas). In this case, you seem to be using the fact that you cannot conceptualize a mechanism of action as the reason not to perform a study.

It is the mechanism that is missing. There is no biological plausibility put forward other than the vague “too many too soon” or “overwhelm the immune system”.

In the second place, we have do have mechanisms by which vaccinations could cause regression that are not nearly as vague as you would like to assert.

What about inducement of seizures and associated neurological outcomes? Febrile seizures are a well documented side effect of vaccination. Curiously enough, having a febrile seizure is also associated with a diagnosis of autism.

Risk of autism spectrum disorders after infantile spasms: a population-based study nested in a cohort with seizures in the first year of life [Saemundsen 2008]

We have at least one case study wherein the development of seizures as associated with a documented developmental regression and autistic behaviors.

Autistic regression associated with seizure onset in an infant with tuberous sclerosis [Humphrey 2006]

It turns out, activation of the innate immune system and the consequent inflammatory response, has been implicated in seizure generation by several researchers in the past few years by a variety of measurements.

Enhanced microglial activation and proinflammatory cytokine upregulation are linked to increased susceptibility to seizures and neurologic injury in a ‘two-hit’ seizure model. [Somera-Molina 2009]

The role of interleukin-1beta in febrile seizures. [Heida 2009]

Causal links between brain cytokines and experimental febrile convulsions in the rat [Heida 2009]

Postnatal inflammation increases seizure succeptibility in adult rats [Galic 2008]

Inflammation exacerbates seizure-induced injury in the immature brain [Auvin 2007]

Glial activation links early-life seizures and long-term neurologic dysfunction: evidence using a small molecule inhibitor of proinflammatory cytokine upregulation [Somera-Molina 2007]

Coincidentally, children with autism have been shown to respond much more vigorously to immune system challenges than their non diagnosed peers; and indeed, create more IL-1Beta, and TNF-Alpha when stimulated with a variety of agents.

Proinflammatory and regulatory cytokine production associated with innate and adaptive immune responses in children with autism spectrum disorders and developmental regression [Jyonouchi 2001]

Preliminary evidence of the in vitro effects of BDE-47 on innate immune responses in children with autism spectrum disorders. [Ashwood 2008]

What’s more, children with autism also show signs of chronic activation of the immune system in the CNS, bearing similarities to what was noted by the two Somera-Molina papers.

Neuroglial Activation and Neuroinflammation in the Brains of Patients With Autism [Vargas 2005]

In review:

We know that vaccines illicit an immune response; it is their purpose. Further, we acknowledge that febrile seizures are a known side effect of vaccination. We also know that having a seizure early in life is associated with an autism diagnosis, and we have small studies showing an association between onset of seizures and developmental regression and autistic behaviors. Going further to clinical evidence as to the underlying immunological mechanisms, we have evidence that a robust innate immune response can be responsible for generation of seizures and consequent long term neuroimmune and behavioral outcomes, and in fact, some of the same immune system messengers targeted as causal are created in far greater quantities by children with autism than children without autism in response to immune system diagnosis.

I’d be willing to discussing any of these papers, or others, if you feel you have reasons why the framework for a possible mechanism of regression outlined above is invalid.

Or, we could discuss the evidence that immune activation during critical developmental periods can have long lasting immunomodulatory effects as a biological plausbility. It’s a bit late for that now. If you are interested in that discussion, I may be able to construct a post tomorrow evening.

- pD

July 8, 2009 at 4:27 am
(25) Tanners Dad says:

I agree with your position most days. I agree with the skeptics at least once a week. I agree with those on the spectrum 4 out of 5 days. I am labeled as a vaccine zealot and worse. I advocate for safe vaccines. I stand on my soap box and lean to the loud side because the general public is a bunch of zombies, numb, asleep and dead on the couch. If I can help one child, one adult, one family, or one marriage I have done my part. People Fact is there is a Rising Autism Pandemic Evolution. We need to do something. As long as the jury is out, the controversy is ongoing. Sorry, lisa Just by admitting that the vaccine controversy exists you too are a zealot. Mainstream medical can not even be bothered to count for over 15 years ( 1 in 150 is now over 15 years old ) There are those (Recently published on Huffington Post ) that are still using 1 in 166.

July 8, 2009 at 7:59 am
(26) Sandy says:

Seizures occur when nerve cells in the body misfire. Seizures are a common childhood neurological disorder, because the young nervous system is more susceptible to seizures than the adult nervous system. About 4 to 10 percent of children have experienced an unprovoked seizure, with no recurrence. The vast majority of seizures cease spontaneously. One in every 25 children will have at least one febrile seizure, and more than one-third of these children will have additional febrile seizures before they outgrow the tendency to have them. There is no evidence that febrile seizures cause brain damage. Large studies have found that children with febrile seizures have normal school achievement and perform as well on intellectual tests as their siblings who don’t have seizures.
Most times a high fever can cause these, which vaccines certainly can but fevers do occur without any vaccines so one can not totally avoid this by avoiding vaccines alone. Also, not all children with high fevers have seizures. My son’s highest recorded fever long after his diagnosis of autism was 105.8 and had nothing to do with a recent vaccine. There was no evident cause for that fever either. He has never had a seizure.

Recurrent seizures which are not correctable are considered epilepsy. Children with epilepsy often have an underlying central nervous system disorder which causes behavioral problems, as well as cognitive impairment. This would make it difficult to know if seizures would be the primary medical issue, and due to that the secondary would be behavior and cognitive associated with the seizures.

Epilepsy is very common in tuberous sclerosis complex (genetic disorder) and occurs in 80 to 90% of affected individuals during their lifetime. Onset usually occurs during childhood, and up to one third of children with tuberous sclerosis complex will develop infantile spasms.

Puberty also has a percentage of seizure onset as well.

July 8, 2009 at 9:03 am
(27) FreeSpeaker says:

Your question, “Is It Possible to be a Vaccine-Autism Moderate?” can be simply answered in one word. The word is NO. Either vaccines cause autism or they do not. Period.

Moderates are fence sitters who cannot take a stand. An old Chinese proverb says that man who sits on fence, gets brain damage from the fence.

July 8, 2009 at 11:27 am
(28) AutismNewsBeat says:

“People Fact is there is a Rising Autism Pandemic Evolution.”

TD, you’ll have to do better than that. What data indicate a “rising autism pandemic evolution”? Do you accept Generation’s Rescue’s claim that autism has risen from 1:10,000 in 1983 to 1:150 today?

July 8, 2009 at 2:24 pm
(29) Sullivan says:


as you know, we have discussed many of the papers you list on our blog. You have taken part in the discussions and you have been shown, quite clearly, to misunderstand and to misrepresent what the authors found.

If you would like to have those discussions again, feel free to contact Prometheus. He did an excellent job describing your mistakes.

If you wish to try verbal gymnastics with your discussion of mechanisms, feel free. You missed the point. Clearly missed the point. Your entire discussion of Hannah Poling shows that you missed the point.

AutismNewsBeat–the phrase “rising autism pandemic evolution” is something TannersDad is trying to coin and get into general circulation. It would help if it was meaningful.

July 8, 2009 at 3:02 pm
(30) Sullivan says:


You say you are not squarely in either camp. First, I don’t really like the word “camp”, but let’s move on:

What can you say about your position?

Do you believe that
a) Thimerosal caused an “epidemic” of autism, or do you agree with the multiple studies which say no?

b) do you think that MMR causes autism via the Wakefield mechanism, or do you agree with the science that shows that (a) the epidemiology doesn’t support it and (b) the Hornig study shows that Wakefield was wrong.

c) Do you think that autism in any way is similar to mercury poisoning in presentation (as proposed by a group of non medical professionals), or do you agree with actual toxicologists who say that mercury poisoning is very distinct from autism?

d) do you think that special education data and data show a real increase in autism, or do you agree that the definitions have changed and that there is a big drive for services? Do you agree that the educational definitions for autism are much more lose than the medical?

e) do you agree that goalposts have been shifted? That people like David Kirby stated that the CDDS numbers should show a decrease due to the dramatic reduction in mercury in the pediatric vaccines–and that when this didn’t happen, they just shifted the hypotheses to keep the mercury hypothesis alive?

Do you agree that as it has become more clear that the mercury hypothesis was false, groups like generation rescue have just shifted their goalposts to the more vague “vaccine injury” hypothesis?

f)Do you agree that the idea that “biomedical” treatments really have nothing to do with “healing vaccine injury”?

g) Do you agree that the best research, the best lawyers and the best test cases possible were brought to the Court of Federal Claims on the MMR question, and the Court found that it was “not even close” to making the case? Do you have any reason to disagree with the Court? The main complaints are focused on claiming that the Court is corrupt.

h) Do you agree that the “vaccine injury” theory of autism is leading people to try risky, expensive, experimental therapies on their children?

i) Do you agree that some in the vaccines-cause-autism community are outright anti-vaccine? If not, I can provide links. Do you agree that much of the discussions center not on autism, but instead on false statements like “vaccines don’t work” or, as shown above, “why use vaccines when we have cod liver oil and vitamin C”. Do you agree that this is very dangerous?

My guess is that you have opinions on many of the subjects above. Why not voice them?

July 8, 2009 at 3:07 pm
(31) Sullivan says:

“And Sullivan; as for the MMR and thimerosal being “off the table”: keep reading.”

I would encourage you to not only keep reading, but to keep listening.

If you can find it (it is on our blog, I believe) you can listen to the press conference for the Hornig study on MMR. Rick Rollens was included as an observer in that study. There is probably not a single person other than Andrew Wakefield who promoted the MMR hypothesis with such fervor. Mr. Rollens agreed that MMR is no longer suspect.

If Mr. Rollens can come to that conclusion about MMR, given his history and his involvement with the study, I am very comfortable saying MMR is off the table.

July 8, 2009 at 5:40 pm
(32) ANB says:

Lisa, is it possible to be a “refrigerator mother” moderate? There is logic on both sides, and no one can prove conclusively that autism is never caused by distant parents. In fact, Bettleheim’s hunch was based largely, if not entirely, on anecdotal evidence and supposition.

Similarly, no one can prove that a very small number of autism-related claims of vaccine injury aren’t for real.

So how can you close the door on Bettleheim’s legacy, while leaving the metaphorical refrigerator door open to the unproven and discredited notion that vaccines cause autism? I’m not seeing the logic.

July 8, 2009 at 6:17 pm
(33) Connie says:

“Extreme” vaccine-autism sites like Age of Autism demonize everyone who does not agree with their position on vaccines and autism, and encourage their readers to do the same.

My sister and her husband have three kids, one on the spectrum. She visits AoA 3-4 times daily and believes everything she reads there.

She has told her husband that she NO LONGER LOVES HIM because he does not agree that vaccines cause autism.

In my opinion, she feels this way because she has been conditioned by the extremists to hate everyone who demurs from the vaccine-autism theory.

She has also told her oldest daughter that she will “never forgive her” if she vaccinates her own children.

Finally, she refuses medical care for herself because — in her words — “if you read AoA as much as I do, you’d realize that most doctors are no good.”

AoA encourages mistrust of the medical profession among its readers. This week, my sister has been telling me that she’s been having chest pains. But she won’t see a doctor. Because AoA has taught her to believe that doctors are evil.

This is why it is not really possible to be a “vaccine-autism moderate.” The extremists will not allow such an animal to have a voice.

July 8, 2009 at 7:05 pm
(34) Stan says:

Sandy -
I mentioned the vitamin C and vitamin A/cod liver oil and colloidal silver treatments (and there are many other nature-sourced anti-virals and -bacterials) to clarify that we are not lost if some vaccines have to come off the market because of safety concerns. Yes it’s treatment over prevention (although a healthy diet & lifestyle & immune-system boosters ARE preventive), but when the prevention is packaged with major safety concerns, it needs to be reviewed. And there ARE major safety concerns over some of these vaccines. But there is also another pov to consider in this matter: that is that there are benefits to the immune system from contracting the childhood disease, and also to the baby if a woman has life-long, natural immunity; protecting it until its own immune system can kick in. I’m not saying do away with all vaccines totally; I’m saying that the public has a right to the total truth about the benefits vs the risks of some of them. Vaccines can cause allergies/asthma/anaphylaxis; arthritis/arthralgia; ADD/ADHD & dyslexia & dyspraxia and the whole range of Minimal Brain Damage conditions, yes including ASD; CFS/ME; convulsions/seizures/epilepsy; type 1 diabetes; Guillain-Barre Syndrome; lupus, MS – the list goes on, of neurological & autoimmune conditions. How much? We don’t know, because the medical authorities have chosen not to go there, because they are true believers in their wondrous medical modality, and anybody who rocks the boat is off the team, to mix metaphors. There is all manner of evidence for all this; but we are up against a very powerful vested interest, in the medical-pharmaceutical-government complex. You must sense that this is true. And hopefully, that it’s time – past time – for a change.

Sullivan –
Just curious; what do you think of the Bailey Banks case? And please don’t tell me that there was no mention of autism there. ADEM is a PDD-NOS, which is part of the definition of an ASD. They got that case through only because they avoided the use of ‘the word’, because it’s too sensitive, to say political, an issue. This isn’t science. This is propaganda, and it’s time it was thrown out. We need to get to the truth of matters, not the political correctness. And have you come across yet the recent critique of the Honda-Rutter study out of Japan, which in point of fact showed a dose-response relationship between the MMR and autism? Believe me, the MMR is not out of the woods yet. Not by a long shot.

Nor is thimerosal. Or aluminum. Or glutamate – & in the MMR, incidentally, besides in the diet. But that’s enough for now. Except to say: Google Prof Richard Deth, and Thomas Burbacher, and Dr Jill James; and locate some of the detailed papers of Dr Russell L Blaylock, if you want some insights into the mechanisms involved here. And check out the critiques of Dr Yazbak et al of the Madsen and Fombonnne studies. And……..let’s get real.

July 8, 2009 at 7:25 pm
(35) Sandy says:

Stan~ show me the evidence where “vaccines can cause allergies/asthma/anaphylaxis; arthritis/arthralgia; ADD/ADHD & dyslexia & dyspraxia and the whole range of Minimal Brain Damage conditions, yes including ASD; CFS/ME; convulsions/seizures/epilepsy; type 1 diabetes; Guillain-Barre Syndrome; lupus, MS and on and on”. You Forgot Sudden Infant Death. Vaccines have been the scapegoat for every thing under the sun only there is no backing to those claims. That is the truth. All of the above is just spreading unfounded info and fear. I didn’t have one vaccine as a child but still have dyslexia. My sister had no vaccines either and she was born with Type 1 Diabetes. All those things can, lack for a better phrase, just happen regardless of vaccines and not getting vaccines can not prevent any of those things for all people. That medical-pharmaceutical-government complex was begged at one time to find a way to stop children from dying needlessly. I would much rather my child had autism than to die from a childhood preventable illness.

If you can assure me the treatments you provided for the majority who contract polio will not have long term paralysis, that children still would not die from measles, show us the way. Show us that evidence. I am quite sure if all that was true, there’s be no deaths right now in the UK or else where for that matter. The medical community nor you know the biology makeup of every human being to know the effects of vaccines or the treatment you suggest. It is impossible. You’re trading off one set of potential side effects of vaccine for another of over doses of vitamins.

As for the Bailey Banks case, depends on where you read as to what one can get out of it. I’d go for actual court transcripts than web sites.

July 8, 2009 at 7:31 pm
(36) Liz says:

Yes, I believe it’s possible to be a “vaccine-autism moderate”…I am one, and my position on this issue is an informed position not a commitment problem (for all those who think it’s brainless “fence sitting”).
In our family there’s a strong genetic history of ASD and since my daughter didn’t receive a single vaccine prior to the onset of her symptoms, the vaccine theory in her case is off the table and genetic predisposition has pulled up a chair. Having said that, I have friends with no noted family history of ASD who are convinced that their children were vaccine damaged (and from their stories and videos it really does appear that way). So I can’t argue that it’s impossible when (in their cases) it could be possible. Sure, I will never agree vaccines are “the” cause/trigger of autism but it’s ignorant at this point in time to say they definitively are not “a” cause/trigger in some cases.
If autism were as simple as “yes vaccines cause it…all kids with autism were vaccinated” or “yes, it’s simple genetics…this is the gene” or “Here’s the one size fits all cure…take this pill” then we’d have all the answers right now and everyone could get some sleep! Instead, autism is still as much of a mystery today as it was yesterday (minus a days worth of cool data collection) which means it’s complicated so multiple factors and interactions between factors should been considered. I’m thinking there’s a Nobel prize in it for anyone who can solve the puzzle…any takers?
What I am very black and white about is that the autism community needs to start acting like a community if they want to make things better for those with autism. We fight about everything from cause to diagnosis to treatment and then we attack anyone who doesn’t agree with our inflexible opinions. Half of North America is already sick of hearing about autism and most of them don’t even have a clue what it is! It’s pretty sad.

July 8, 2009 at 7:32 pm
(37) barbaraj says:

The early vaccines produced using aborted fetal cells, such as MMRII, don’t even inform consumers that residual aborted fetal DNA is injected with each vaccine,” SCPI said in a media release. More recently introduced vaccines, the group says, do inform consumers that they contain contaminating residual DNA from the “human diploid cell” but do not say that this cell is from an aborted human fetus.

from this…

I hope this is NOT TRUE, that our children are being immunized with the dna from others, perhaps others with disorders such as schizophrenia…this is horror movie stuff

July 8, 2009 at 8:22 pm
(38) Sandy says:

When you get blood transfusions, you don’t end up with the neuro disorder’s of other’s. You can only end up with viral and bacterial and of course some of the other persons DNA. Some time back insulin for diabetes was made from pigs, one would think DNA had to be in that as well. Those who injected that didn’t get pig disorder’s.
So it’s reasonable to assume ‘if’ embryo’s are in vaccines, you’re not going to get schizophrenia and then there’s the question if that’s even genetic or not to be able to contract it from an embryo.

July 8, 2009 at 8:25 pm
(39) AutismNewsBeat says:

ADEM is a PDD-NOS, which is part of the definition of an ASD.

The vaccine moderate in me wants to say you could be right, that ADEM may be the sixth PDD that the government, Eli Lilly and Orac don’t want you to know about. But then the vaccine extremist part of me wonders why you didn’t do a simple Google search to learn that ADEM stands for ‘acute disseminated encephalomyelitis” which is not the same as autism. Not even close.

July 8, 2009 at 10:18 pm
(40) barbaraj says:

Perhaps autism is a kind of sspe? atypical? perhaps this information below is propaganda, it’s hard to distiguish…
Belgamwar RB, et al (1997). Measles, mumps, rubella vaccine induced subacute sclerosing panencephalitis. J Indian Med Assoc. 1997 Nov;95(11):594. No abstract available. PMID: 9567594; UI: 98229001.
A particular case of SSPE is described in a thirteen-year-old girl who had been immunized against all childhood diseases; receiving the MMR vaccine at the age of nine months. The girl’s intellectual functioning until development of illness had been very good. After illness developed, the child verbalized little and was socially inappropriate; her memory and thinking abilities were impaired. She grew progressively worse, and added myoclonic jerks of the upper limbs, with depressed deep tendon reflexes. The authors concluded that Subacute, Sclerosing Panencephalitis was engendered as a delayed adverse effect of measles vaccine. The authors note other cases of SSPE induced by the attenuated measles vaccine.

Halsey N. Risk of subacute sclerosing panencephalitis from measles vaccination. Pediatr Infect Dis J. 1990 Nov;9(11):857-8. No abstract available.PMID: 2263442; UI: 91088240.
“Polymerase chain reaction detection of the hemagglutinin gene from an attenuated measles vaccine strain in the peripheral mononuclear cells of children with autoimmune hepatitis,” Archives of Virology volume 141, 1996, pages 877-884: “The measles virus is known to be persistent in patients with subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) and measles inclusion body encephalitis (MIBE). Since the introduction of measles vaccines, vaccine-associated SSPE has increased in the USA. Therefore, we should pay attention to SSPE after inoculation with measles vaccine, despite the decrease in the incidence of [wild] measles.”

Cheng (1973). SSPE after measles vaccination

Okuno Y, Nakao T, Ishida N, Konno T, Mizutani H, Fukuyama Y, Sato T, Isomura S, Ueda S, Kitamura I, et al.
Incidence of subacute sclerosing panencephalitis following measles and measles vaccination in Japan. Int J Epidemiol. 1989 Sep;18(3):684-9. PMID: 2807674 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


July 8, 2009 at 10:26 pm
(41) barbaraj says:

Sandy, most blood transfusions are red blood cells, I don’t believe they contain dna.These cells contain no nuclei.

July 8, 2009 at 10:36 pm
(42) barbaraj says:

Has anyone ever considered the possibility, that there IS an autoimmune response to the diploid cells in vaccines, that autism may well be an autoimmune disease. An unknown graft vs host response that imo needs looking into. MMR continues to be suspect in many developing cases of autism. A typical graft vs host would start to take hold late, probably months after the donor dna is confronted by one’s immune system. Infants immune systems are not fully developed, the effect my take longer, perhaps the reason why so many start to have symptoms around the age of two and three.

July 8, 2009 at 10:39 pm
(43) Sandy says:

Depends on the type of blood transfusion, even still the person getting the transfusions DNA would over ride any other DNA present.

You’re not going to get schizophrenia from some one else’s DNA, unless they’re your parents and it hapened at conception.

July 8, 2009 at 10:46 pm
(44) Sandy says:

Autoimmune diseases arise from an overactive immune response of the body against substances and tissues normally present in the body. In other words, the body really attacks its own cells. There’s about 40 or so autoimmune disorders that are accepted and suspected of being just that; autism isn’t on those lists.

July 9, 2009 at 12:43 am
(45) Sullivan says:

Just curious; what do you think of the Bailey Banks case? And please don’t tell me that there was no mention of autism there.

Did you read the decision?

The title is:
“Non-autistic developmental delay; Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis; Expert Credibility; Evidentiary Reliability; Scientific Validity; Burden of Proof; Causation in Fact; Proximate Causation”

“Non-autistic developmental delay”

As ANB has pointed out, you made a mistake in that ADEM is not one of the pervasive developmental delays.

July 9, 2009 at 12:47 am
(46) barbaraj says:

Sandy, maybe it should be listed among them. Do we know it’s not an autoimmune disorder? There continues to be a risk of Guillain-Barre syndrome following flu shots, why?

July 9, 2009 at 1:17 am
(47) Sullivan says:

People keep misrepresenting the autoimmune disease results.

It isn’t that people with autoimmune disease have more autism, it is that children of mothers with autoimmune disease have more autism.

This suggests (once again) that the important environment for increasing the risk of autism is before the child is born.

July 9, 2009 at 7:30 am
(48) Sandy says:

GBS is a rare side-effect of influenza vaccines, do you happen to know the statisical rate per population that get GBS after a flu vaccine? it’s thoguht that the trigger is due to being contaminated with a bacterium that triggers GBS, which is probably what happened in the 1970′s swing vaccine. however other flu type vaccines have to risk of GBS at all.

Not all mothers have autoimmune diseases nor do all kids with autism. It could be that the autoimmune disease causes autism-like disorders and it’s a side effect of that disease. I do not have any autoimmune diseases nor does my child display any or tested positve for any autoimmune disorder’s. he does have other medical issues however not everything is going to be related to autism nor does it have to be made to or forced to have a relation. People often have multiple medical issues running at the same time.

July 9, 2009 at 5:57 pm
(49) barbaraj says:

It continues to be a side effect in a few vaccines, and it is definitely an autoimmune syndrome.Many vaccines hold the risk for development of Guillain Barre, including HepB,oral polio,flu,tetanus and the newer meningitis vaccine. There are some vaccines that seem to cause it more often than others, the late ’70′s swine vaccine and the more current meningitis vaccine.
I’m learning this as I go, I didn’t realize what a case can be made for dangerous vaccines. We really need to lobby for safer vaccines for our children, not pretend these dangers don’t exist.

July 9, 2009 at 6:52 pm
(50) Stan says:

@39 ANB & #45 Sullivan:
The Bailey Banks case: the Special Master comments in this case makes it clear: the ADEM caused by the MMR led directly to his PDD-NOS diagnosis; and that category of brain damage/disorder has been designated an ASD for years. (My apologies: I should have been more specific, should not have said/inferred that ADEM itself was considered a PDD. But isn’t there a touch of pedantry going on here?)

A good summary of the case & its circumstances is at huffington post, Kennedy & Kirby, 24 Feb, ‘Vaccine Court: Autism Debate Continues’. Neither of you (or others reading this) may care for these gentlemen, but it’s the message that counts. And the message in this case (one of them)is that as long as the plaintiff doesn’t take their case to the OAP & its heightened public profile, takes it to the regular Vaccine Court, and doesn’t mention the no-no word ‘autism’, it will get a fair look-in. (At least, from this evidence, from S.M. Abell.) Which is about as corrupt a situation as there can be. And that’s what I mean by the whole truth of this matter, of the link between vaccines and autism, needing to come out.

Am I saying that all cases of ASD come from vaccines? No. But they are implicated. And some more than others. And that brings up the issue of autoimmunity. The MMR can be contaminated with MBP from the chick embryo cells the measles virus is cultured on. The body mounts an inflammatory response to the vaccine, including all of its ingredients, and voila: antibodies to MBP (= autoimmunity). Which is not just theory: V.K. Singh et al have found antibodies to MBP associated with the MMR measles vaccine virus in the damaged guts of children diagnosed with autism. And there are other routes for autoimmunity to be triggered by vaccines. Eg, the research of the Classens in showing that the Hib vaccine is clearly higher in risk for triggering type 1 diabetes than its purported benefits. And the link between the HepB vax and MS (to the particular horror, and response, of the French). The list goes on.

One last point, for now. The argument may be that measles itself can trigger ADEM, so won’t we run more of that risk if fewer children take the vax? To which I would reply: (1) It is fair enough to look at all of the possible ramifications of parents opting out from some vaccines for their kids until they are proved or made safer. (2) There can well be a problem with the combined vaxes – they have not been researched well. So give them singly. (3) The operative word here is ‘can’. There is a good chance that the combined vax could create more cases of ADEM than the wild measles virus itself would, particularly in combination, and particularly with the adjuvants, and other toxins in them. Which leads to (4) The MMR has glutamate in it (a stabilizer in live virus vaccines). Not only is it a potential excitotoxin in its own right (inflammation causes the brain to release high levels of ‘free glutamate’ which affect/attack the brain) but it lowers glutathione levels (an essential antioxidant and detoxifier; which, it turns out, not so incidentally, has a genetic predisposition to be lower in some children on the spectrum). Thus, when the MMR is given with other vaccines that contain either thimerosal or aluminum or both (both of which the DPT at least used to contain), it would tend to make it more difficult for the child to excrete those heavy metals/toxins. Result: such as ASD, esp. with kids genetically predisposed to be low in glutathione.

And thus the need to screen our children better. Those with the genes associated with autism (at least some of which code for glutamate; so that substance is particularly deadly to such kids, should be eliminated from their systems, both by a controlled diet (& thus the value of a GF/CF diet for many kids on the spectrum, both of which have high levels of glutamate) and from their vaccines); those with the genetic polymorphism causing them to be low in glutathione; and those with mitochondrial dysfunction, who can’t deal with the stress of vaccines as easily as other kids. (It wasn’t her mito dysfunction that tipped Hannah Poling into autism, incidentally; it was the big load of vaccines her unsuspecting health carer gave her.)

Dr Russell L Blaylock has some excellent papers on this subject of excitotoxins, and other aspects of the dangers of vaccines. Some on this thread might not care for his message. But his message is not his fault. He is just trying to get the truth out there, from his perspective as a retired neurosurgeon, and now nutritionist advisor. Is he making money from his books and web site and such? Yes. It’s an honest living. Can’t say as much for some of the people in this field. Mentioning no names.

July 9, 2009 at 7:05 pm
(51) Sandy says:

In the USA today, GBS affects one to two people in every 100,000 (of course this wouldn’t count that 1979′s Swing injections). If it’s related to vaccines, the innocents of it isn’t all that much of a risk plus the causes are unknown for it but 50 percent of cases happen after a viral or bacterial infection which by the way can happen aside from vaccines as well. It’s also only related to flu type vaccines, not the others listed.

July 9, 2009 at 7:14 pm
(52) Stan says:

#44 Sandy -

from Dr Blaylocks’ paper ‘Vaccines, Depression and Neurodegeneration After Age 50′:

“Stimulating your immune system with a vaccine is far different than contracting an infectious illness naturally. Vaccines are made of two components – the agent you wish to vaccinate against – for example, the measles virus; and an immune system booster called an immune adjuvant.

“These adjuvants are composed of such things as aluminum compounds, MSG, lipid comounds and even mercury. their job is to make the immune system react as intensely as possible and for as long as possible.

“Studies have shown that these adjuvants, from a single vaccine, can cause immune overactivation for as long as two years. This means that the brain microglia remain active as well, continuously pouring out destructive chemicals. In fact, one study found that a single injection of an immune activating substance could cause immune overactivation for over a year. This is very destructive.”

Adding to the destructive nature of vaccines: Some time ago they reduced the antigens in vaccines – possibly to try to mollify the public – and point to that as a scoffing reply to parents who point out that kids these days are getting way more vaccines than they used to, and this has to be making a difference in things such as autism instances. But what they don’t say is that the vaccines were increased in their adjuvants, to make them more reactive. And it is the adjuvants (and other toxic ingredients in them) that can be the major danger of them. They are oversensitizing the immune system.

An example of the danger of the adjuvants, etc, has to do with allergies/asthma/anaphylaxis. A good source of info: vran.org. And a good source of info about the dangers of glutamate/glutamic acid: msgtruth.org.

Read it, and weep, for the lack of awareness of our health carers in this sorry story, of the total downsides of vaccines.

July 9, 2009 at 8:41 pm
(53) Sandy says:

“Read it, and weep, for the lack of awareness” aluminum salts (adjuvant’s) has been in vaccines longer than Thimerosal ever was, and Thimerosal is a preservative not an adjuvant. If that aluminum salt was a relation to autism/ immune system, we’d have seen those rates go up many many years ago, generations ago if as stated from a single vaccine.

July 10, 2009 at 3:19 pm
(54) Lisa says:

Wow, this is an incredible thread… was away for two days, and am just catching up.

Sullivan, you asked some questions, and I’d like to respond:

Do you believe that
a) Thimerosal caused an “epidemic” of autism, or do you agree with the multiple studies which say no? NO, I DON’T BELIEVE THAT THIMEROSAL CAUSED AN EPIDEMIC.

b) do you think that MMR causes autism via the Wakefield mechanism, or do you agree with the science that shows that (a) the epidemiology doesn’t support it and (b) the Hornig study shows that Wakefield was wrong. I FIND IT HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT WAKEFIELD’S IDEAS HOLD MUCH WATER.

c) Do you think that autism in any way is similar to mercury poisoning in presentation (as proposed by a group of non medical professionals), or do you agree with actual toxicologists who say that mercury poisoning is very distinct from autism? THERE ARE CLEARLY SOME SIMILARITIES, BUT I DON’T THINK AUTISM = MERCURY POISONING AS SOME FOLKS SAY.

d) do you think that special education data and data show a real increase in autism, or do you agree that the definitions have changed and that there is a big drive for services? Do you agree that the educational definitions for autism are much more lose than the medical? I SUSPECT THAT THE APPARENT “EPIDEMIC” OF AUTISM IS MOSTLY NON-EXISTENT, AND WOULD AGREE THAT A GREAT DEAL OF THE APPARENT RISE HAS TO DO WITH CHANGES IN A WHOLE SLEW OF AREAS INCLUDING DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA, CHANGES IN CULTURE, AND CHANGES IN EDUCATIONAL LAW. BUT THERE DOES SEEM TO BE EVIDENCE THAT THE NUMBER OF CASES OF PROFOUND (“CLASSIC”) AUTISM MAY BE INCREASING.

e) do you agree that goalposts have been shifted? That people like David Kirby stated that the CDDS numbers should show a decrease due to the dramatic reduction in mercury in the pediatric vaccines–and that when this didn’t happen, they just shifted the hypotheses to keep the mercury hypothesis alive? YES, THE GOALPOSTS HAVE BEEN SHIFTED.

Do you agree that as it has become more clear that the mercury hypothesis was false, groups like generation rescue have just shifted their goalposts to the more vague “vaccine injury” hypothesis? I’D HAVE TO REVIEW A LOT OF BLOGS TO COMMENT ON THIS.

f)Do you agree that the idea that “biomedical” treatments really have nothing to do with “healing vaccine injury”? I DON’T KNOW. I’D LEAN TOWARD AGREEING WITH THIS POINT, BUT DON’T HAVE SOLID EVIDENCE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

g) Do you agree that the best research, the best lawyers and the best test cases possible were brought to the Court of Federal Claims on the MMR question, and the Court found that it was “not even close” to making the case? Do you have any reason to disagree with the Court? The main complaints are focused on claiming that the Court is corrupt. THAT’S CERTAINLY WHAT THE COURT SAID – YET I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT THESE WERE THE “BEST” ARGUMENTS OR THAT THE COURT WAS THE BEST INSTITUTION TO DETERMINE CAUSES OF AUTISM.

h) Do you agree that the “vaccine injury” theory of autism is leading people to try risky, expensive, experimental therapies on their children? YES.

i) Do you agree that some in the vaccines-cause-autism community are outright anti-vaccine? If not, I can provide links. Do you agree that much of the discussions center not on autism, but instead on false statements like “vaccines don’t work” or, as shown above, “why use vaccines when we have cod liver oil and vitamin C”. Do you agree that this is very dangerous? I DO AGREE THAT SOME OF THE “FOLLOWERS” OF JENNY AND OTHERS ARE TAKING THE ARGUMENTS WAAAAY TOO FAR. I THINK THE IDEA THAT VITAMIN C CAN PREVENT POLIO IS PLAIN SILLY.

My guess is that you have opinions on many of the subjects above. Why not voice them?




July 10, 2009 at 5:50 pm
(55) AutismNewsBeat says:

“Is there a significant number of children who develop symptoms of autism…”

What would be the mechanism for vaccine-induced regression? A child’s immune system is challenged with thousands of different antigens every day – how could a handful of attentuated viruses or protein snippets prompt autism? And why is there not a single confirmed case of vaccine induced autism in the medical literature? Given that 30,000 children are diagnosed with a PDD every year in the US, it’s hardly surprising that some parents claim an onset of symptoms shortly after a vaccine.

“specialized diet..”

Again, what is the mechanism that links GF/CF to autism? Bio-med autrepreneurs like Jenny McCarthy claim it’s the opiates. But where is the evidence for that claim? Do autistic children have more opiates in their bodies that NTs? No, according to at least one study.

A better explanation would be placebo effect (parents report what they want to see), and Hawthorne Effect (the act of studying something changes that thing). Is it possible that children respond to the additional attention and change in routine that accompanies the GF/CF diet? That makes more sense than invisible opiates.

July 11, 2009 at 5:55 pm
(56) Stan says:

#53 Sandy:
Aluminum is definitely a major player in this picture, and it has a synergistic effect with thimerosal. Besides an important paper on aluminum from a conference in Costa Rica some years ago, confirming its dangers (sorry I can’t find the reference right now, but it should come up in a search under aluminum toxicity), I have this statement someone made on a vaccine thread:
“In the Jan/Feb 2008 issue of Mothering Magazine, there is an article by Dr. Robert Sears called, ‘Is Aluminum the New Thimerosal?’ He looked for studies on the safe level of aluminum in vaccines and could not find any. He did find studies on the safe level of (Al) in (iv) feeding, which recommended no more than 4 to 5 mcg of (Al) per kilogram of body weight per day be received (by iv). He says that this comes to about 30 mcg for a 12 pound two-month-old baby. Compare this with the 170 to 850 mcg of (Al) contained in many vaccines. Dr. Sears states that in the typical shots received at a two month ‘well baby’ visit, depending on the brands used, a baby would receive between 295 mcg and 1225 mcg of (Al). Dr. Sears goes on to say, ‘As a medical doctor, my first instinct was to worry that these (Al) levels far exceed what may be safe for babies. My second instinct was to assume that the issue had been properly researched, and that studies had been done on healthy infants to determine their ability to rapidly excrete (Al). My third instinct was to search for these studies. So far, I have found none.’” So much for the care that has gone in to researching the safety of our vaccines.

#54 Lisa:
This is not the space to go into your answers in detail. But for now, just to say regarding vitamin C and polio: Google Dr Fred Klenner vitamin C polio. This is not “silly”. And remember all the cancer seeded into people from the SV40 that contaminated the vax from the monkey kidney cells it was cultured on. Which sort of thing is a continuing danger from vaccines. These things can’t be filtered out, if they’re the same size as the vaccine virus itself. A major problem.

#55 ANB:
You sound serious, and genuinely interested. For answers to your questions regarding mechanisms, see Dr. Blaylock’s paper ‘The Danger of Excessive Vaccination During Brain Development: The Case for a Link to Autism Spectrum Disorders’. I found my copy on http.//articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/pages/the-danger-of-excessive-vaccination-during-brain-development.aspx

July 11, 2009 at 7:14 pm
(57) autism says:

Stan – your citations are from Mothering Magazine and Mercola.com, both of which have specific agendas (both are specifically intended to promote alternative medicines and turn readers away from mainstream medicine)and neither of which are HonCode sites. For these reasons, I don’t consider either to be authoritative sources.

I did google Dr Fred Klenner vitamin C polio. Evidently he was a true believer in the efficacy of vitamin C as a cure for everything from bleeding gums to polio. While I am sure that vitamin C can have a significant impact on bleeding gums (which I suspect was a result of scurvy), a more thorough search shows that Klenner’s work has not been replicated (and not for want of trying).


July 11, 2009 at 7:27 pm
(58) Sandy says:

Just as mercury is not the same as Thimerosal, so their toxicity would not be the same or as dangerous as the other; aluminum toxicity is not the same as aluminum salts used in vaccines. Aluminum in vaccines only recently in question after the debunk of the MMR and Thimerosal.
It would seem there’s a grasping at straws to figure out which part of the vaccines is the culprit and it would be nice if they’d ever come up with that.

July 11, 2009 at 10:16 pm
(59) AutismNewsBeat says:

“It would seem there’s a grasping at straws to figure out which part of the vaccines is the culprit and it would be nice if they’d ever come up with that.”

It would be even nicer if anti-vaccine activists understood how science works.

July 11, 2009 at 10:45 pm
(60) Sandy says:

It would also be nice to understand history. Aluminum salts being used years prior to thimerosal, and even with the combination with thimerosal and aluminum salts, one vaccine or many, you’d have seen the complications long ago than just in the 1990′s to date.

July 12, 2009 at 10:40 am
(61) Brenda says:

So much has been learned, discovered, etc. But think about this: I’m old enough to be the parent of most of you. I for instance used shampoo and conditioner in the ’70s containing formaldehyde as a preservative (as if) because you couldn’t buy them without it. There is some form of mercury and probably has been for who knows how long, in many products used today (eye drops, ear drop, nasal sprays, mascara (tell me what woman hasn’t used that in her life time?)…so there you have your direct environmental delivery system.
It wouldn’t take much to push the envelope with even (or especially) a low dose of mercury to have an “epidemic” with so many carriers for the this effect.
Surely they could prove genetic predisposition or anything else.
You can justify anything. The whole basis of psychological testing.
You don’t need to be a jr. scientist to see this.

July 12, 2009 at 10:44 am
(62) autism says:

Brenda – not sure I see where you’re going with your comment. Is it your contention that mercury in a wide range of products HAS caused an autism epidemic? Or that it’s easy to believe that mercury has caused an epidemic when it hasn’t? Or…?

Lisa (autism guide)

July 12, 2009 at 8:01 pm
(63) Sandy says:

Many over the counter products did and do contain a preservative of mercury, however to make that scientifically to be a culprit, one would then have to know each products concentration, and who used what. Mercury is also I believe part of the earths crust, every person will have some amount of heavy metals within their bodies regardless. I was around in the 70′s and I’d bet many who post here was as well. I never used eye drops, ear drop or nasal sprays myself and mascara I myself am not so concerned about since very little of it would be absorbed threw the skin. Shampoo and conditioner as well. Even with all those OTP’s, if a persons body is discarding this things as it should, then there isn’t a problem. It would be a problem for those who were not discarding it from the body.
There’s a whole lot of if’s.

July 12, 2009 at 9:51 pm
(64) Kathy Blanco says:

How can you design a study on vaccines causing autism when the subject is so variable, or the host? For me, I believe vaccines did cause my chidlren’s autism, but I also believe, that a family with a history of autoimmune diseases, or an infection in utero, can CO CAUSE the condition, or set it up for vaccine injury. This is based on many studies, even one on Google news today. Since I have FOUR, yes, FOUR autoimmune diseases at once, this is a no brainer for me. As well, because we are a multiplex family, being in so many gene studies, we found that OUR IMMUNE FUNCTION genes, are essentially BAD. So, on chromosome 6, is an immune gene for complement C4B. My son has ZERO, yes, ZERO complement C4B. This is almost unheard of. And, he has low IgG1 and4, said to be also markers of a child with autism. I believe immune function, a pathogenic substance/infection, plus toxins both from a needle, to our environemnt, are the causes of autism, and it makes sense, that an environmental risk factor is in play.

So, until they really study this, without the junk and the foxes gaurding the henhouse approaches, I for one, am totally and completely anti vaccine.

And, because of that, my three grandchildren, all boys, have no signs of autism. They are totally unvaccinated, selfish because of that, and so be it. I don’t want to risk one more child until we pull apart this puzzle, and so, until then, we are a selfish thinking of our self family…after all…did they think about my children’s immune capital before they mandated vaccines on them?

July 12, 2009 at 9:55 pm
(65) AutismNewsBeat says:

Thank you for admitting you are anti-vaccine. I wish more anti-vaccine advocates were as honest as you.

July 13, 2009 at 12:29 am
(66) barbaraj says:

I do not believe anyone is anti vaccine, I believe everyone wishes for safe vaccines against deadly diseases. We went off that path when the “need” was presented for shots for things such as hep b at birth. Sure, there is a small subset of moms where this is an issue, but a very small group. It became a lucrative business and the children are paying the price. In the society in which I live, it goes two ways, moms who trust the docs and hope for the best, able to feel guilt free, other moms who take the responsibility on their own to say no, and hope for the best, knowing they will be sooo guilty if their child contracts one of these diseases. One in 96 boys, this is a lie, talk to a teacher, two in each class, mainstreamed with aids beside them all day, that is two in 25, that is unacceptable. It’s not a fight, us against them, this is serious brain damage that needs to be prevented, mothers have always been the best at solving health mysteries, trust them, their science is from the knowledge of daily experiences with their children.

July 13, 2009 at 5:42 am
(67) HUX says:

The rise of this story came with improved communications. I blame the internet, without its ability to unite lunatics much of this rubbish would ever have been visible. Some people are gullible and once convinced, cannot be de-programmed from false beliefs. A little bit of scientific understanding gives more perspective than anything else. This is sadly lacking in the media most of which are run and presented by people with humanities qualifications. Who knows more, a celbrity with access to the media or a doctor / researcher who has studied the subject and qualified in it? We already have enough religions, this looks like a new one.

July 13, 2009 at 10:08 am
(68) Sandy says:

For some families, vaccines would not be the good choice however for the majority, no one yet can specify what part of the vaccines makes it unsafe for all or for even part of the population. The idea of greener or safe goes from the MMR, to Thimerosal, to aluminum and on and on. For the small minority, science would be better off studying that family and why genetically they had so and so reaction than the vaccines schedule in whole.
What science needs to do is study the families and figure out a test prior to vaccines which could determine which child and a predisposition to a reaction.

My child has autism, he does not have brain damage. Mother’s are not the best source for solving health mysteries and if anything, they are the worst since emotions run high and they are too close to the situation. Even still, they would need to provide the specific thing about vaccines, not just say vaccines in general caused this or that.

July 13, 2009 at 1:55 pm
(69) AutismNewsBeat says:

I do not believe anyone is anti-vaccine..

Even people who call themselves anti-vaccine? Or the folks who demonize vaccines with baseless accusations?

I believe everyone wishes for safe vaccines against deadly diseases.

Nothing is 100% safe. The point is that vaccines are safer than the diseases they protect us from.

We went off that path when the “need” was presented for shots for things such as hep b at birth. Sure, there is a small subset of moms where this is an issue, but a very small group.

So you are comfortable with sacrificing some children to protect the rest of us from a problem that has never been proven to exist?

It became a lucrative business and the children are paying the price.

Children are paying the price for uniformed fear mongering of anti-vaccine zealots.

In the society in which I live, it goes two ways, moms who trust the docs and hope for the best, able to feel guilt free, other moms who take the responsibility on their own to say no, and hope for the best, knowing they will be sooo guilty if their child contracts one of these diseases.

“Maladaptive behavior” is not a synonym for “society”. And you put more than your own child at risk when you reject vaccines. You also put mine at risk.

One in 96 boys, this is a lie, talk to a teacher, two in each class, mainstreamed with aids beside them all day, that is two in 25, that is unacceptable.

Your whole argument is unacceptable, not to mention unintelligible. Are you saying that all autism is caused by vaccines, and that you are not anti-vaccine? I have a hard time reconciling those viewpoints – perhaps a vaccine-autism moderate would have better luck.

It’s not a fight, us against them, this is serious brain damage that needs to be prevented…

Autism is not brain damage, and it’s not caused by vaccines. If you want to prevent autism, then make sure kids are protected from congenital rubella syndrome. There’s a vaccine for that.

..mothers have always been the best at solving health mysteries..

As long as they have relevant education, training and experience, and know what they are talking about. Another small subset of moms.

…trust them, their science is from the knowledge of daily experiences with their children.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

July 14, 2009 at 10:30 am
(70) barbaraj says:

A good point , “if you want to prevent autism prevent rubella syndrome”!!!
That statement may weaken this one “vaccines do not cause autism”.

Thirty years ago, the Merck Manual listed rubella syndrome as the only known cause of autism. This may be an important clue. We know rubella causes autism, we give our kids a shot containing rubella, we assure ourselves there is no connection between the mmr vaccine and autism. The generation born in the mid sixties received the vaccine, their children are involved in this epidemic. Should anyone look at the rubella titers in the mothers of autistic children?

July 14, 2009 at 1:07 pm
(71) Sandy says:

Have any credible source to that Merck manual?
Rubella is only dangerous if it’s Congenital rubella. Contracting it as a child isn’t so dangerous, however the rubella epidemic of 1963-1965 resulted in 1,800,000 infected individuals, approximately 20,000 fetal deaths and about 30,000 infants born with congenital rubella syndrome. Since the introduction of the rubella vaccine in 1969 there are less than 120 cases of congenital rubella syndrome reported each year.
That’s why there’s that vaccine, to protect those unborn babies (pregnant mothers) not because it was so deadly to the already born child.
Congenital rubella causes many things, including mental retardation which some may consider autism back then, hard to know.

30 years ago was 1979, not the 1960′s and that vaccine was started in 1969 however the epidemic everyone is talking about started in the 1990′s so I’m not really sure where any big clue is other than millions of babies are not dying pre natal.

July 14, 2009 at 1:46 pm
(72) barbaraj says:

Sandy my source is the Merck Manual.
I delivered my son in 1964, I’m well aware of the rubella epidemic and the damage, yet the numbers were SMALL compared to the current autism epidemic.
older sources implicate rubella as the cause of autism..I’m suggesting they were “on to something”…

July 14, 2009 at 4:08 pm
(73) AutismNewsBeat says:

What current autism epidemic? What data indicate an epidemic? Please be specific.

July 14, 2009 at 4:45 pm
(74) Brett says:

Can you be an autism-vaccine “moderate”? Yes, you can. Of course, that means that just about everyone (even other moderates) will disagree with some – or all – of what you say.

In fact, they will likely not listen to anything you say except for what it is about your position that they disagree with so they can bash you over the head with it. And if they embrace the part of your beliefs they do agree with, they will abandon you at the first signs of defection.

Sorry for the pessimism, but that has been my experience as a fellow moderate.

July 14, 2009 at 4:58 pm
(75) Sandy says:

I’m well aware of that 1964 as well.
I can only speak for myself, 20,000 fetal deaths and 30,000 born with damage from congenital rubella is far worse than autism. Those fetal deaths didn’t even have a chance for life, nor did those who survived.

That study you provided from 1971 (!) was a study of 243 pre K children with congenital rubella, 10 of which were identified having autism. You are clearly missing the point here:
“congenital” rubella means the mother’s of these children were Exposed to a person with rubella whil epregnant, and these would be part of that 30K that survived after birth. These children didn’t contract this after birth, it states “Congenital”.
As ANB said, “if you want to prevent autism prevent rubella syndrome”
That was done by a vaccine, meaning less children were born with congenital rubella, meaning the vaccine works, and less autism in current day.

July 14, 2009 at 5:47 pm
(76) barbaraj says:

I don’t know what you want me to provide, it’s a given that , unless one is reading merk studies, that there is an epidemic of autism. I could cite all day..


July 14, 2009 at 5:57 pm
(77) AutismNewsBeat says:

Your citation includes administrative data between 1992 and 2003. That’s far from definitive. When you assume an epidemic, is it for all PDDs?

July 14, 2009 at 6:16 pm
(78) barbaraj says:

Sandy and ANB, clearly there is an epidemic, clearly we have to find the resources to help these children, a new wave is about to hit schools, most of which are underfunded as it is, it’s one thing to spar over the cause, but quite another to pretend the numbers haven’t exploded. There is an interesting case to be made for rubella,and please don’t accuse ME of not understanding .

July 14, 2009 at 6:44 pm
(79) Sandy says:

I’m not disagreeing there are far more cases if autism, but I d not agree with why you think there is. Since there is not a blood test for autism, it’s hard to say if there is an actual epidemic or not and you can not base this off of schools either. Autism is a medical disorder, rates should not come from an educational source. Many sites will point to an epidemic, but many other’s will point to a reasonable explanation of that. All depends on where one reads.

Giving the vaccine of rubella can cause the person to have a mild case, that would maybe be true of those types of vaccines however Barbara, you impied that that vaccine in relation to the MMR had something to do with autism (more so per the rubella vaccine). I didn’t accuse you of misunderstanding; there is a misunderstanding of what you’re implying with the MMR, and congenital rubella. The rubella vaccine is what does prevent congenital rubella which is what is the dangerous part about it to begin with. Even if the child had a slight case of rubella after the vaccine, contracting rubella outside the womb is not dangerous nor does it cause MR or autism.

July 14, 2009 at 6:48 pm
(80) Sandy says:

That site offered, the data was supplied from the US Educational Department:

If one was to go a step further, they’d see per state how autism IEP’s rose, and MR IEP’s dropped.
Autism was always there, just not termed properly on an IEP.

July 14, 2009 at 9:29 pm
(81) AutismNewsBeat says:

“..clearly there is an epidemic.”

Clearly, there is no conclusive evidence for an epidemic. BarbJ, do you understand how autism is diagnosed? Are you aware of the changes in diagnostic criteria over the last 25 years? Do you know what DSM stands for? Do you understand diagnostic substitution?

July 14, 2009 at 9:35 pm
(82) AutismNewsBeat says:

Thanks, Sandy –


If we were experiencing an autism epidemic, then IDEA numbers for all combined disabilities would also be on the rise. But they are not.

Clearly, there is no good evidence for an autism epidemic, and repeating that myth does nothing to help children. The IDEA numbers, plotted over the last 10 years, are very difficult to explain away.

July 14, 2009 at 9:43 pm
(83) Sandy says:

What we’re seeing really, in more an “autism recognition” than an epidemic, and if the US Educational Department is of any use at all (generally it’s a poor place to gain any medical info) is when one rate went up, another went down to nearly zilch.

July 14, 2009 at 10:56 pm
(84) barbaraj says:

I don’t know what causes autism, I have a friend who makes a great case for plastics, starting at the story surrounding the foster grant company.It’s just my opinion that rubella should be suspect. The generation of immunized children and young adults are the generation of parents of autistic children. Do we “know” there is no active viral infection lurking in the bodies of these young women? I know when my daughter had her son immunized with the mmr, he only showed titers to rubeola, not to rubella, the suggestion was that circulating maternal antibodies could have in some way kept him from the proper response, it was explained that he should have another shot,at a later date, to insure titers sufficient to keep him from contracting rubella. This seems to be one of the reasons for the shot being a fairly late one, to prevent opposition from circulating maternal antibodies.Just what happens when this live virus is injected into these children who don’t have the expected immune response, do we know they don’t carry the virus and perhaps compromise the health of their future pregnancies. Could their future children have congenital rubella at some low level and later when given their own live vaccine experience a kind of synergy that is not yet understood. I’m just open to this possibility.

July 14, 2009 at 11:07 pm
(85) barbaraj says:

: Lancet. 1982 Jun 12;1(8285):1323-5. Links
Persistent rubella infection and rubella-associated arthritis.Chantler JK, Ford DK, Tingle AJ.
Rubella virus has been isolated from peripheral blood lymphocytes in six out of seven women with rubella-associated arthritis. The arthritis occurred after natural infection (one case) or immunisation with HPV 77 DES vaccine (six cases) and had been present for up to 6 years. The identification of rubella virus was confirmed by plaque/microfocus reduction in the presence of anti-rubella antiserum, and by immunoprecipitation of rubella virus antigens and their analysis on polyacrylamide gels. These women with rubella virus in their lymphocytes did not have abnormal serum antibody levels, but a standard lymphoproliferative assay showed that they had strong cell-mediated immune responses to rubella virus antigens.

PMID: 6123637 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE

I cite this, only because it DOES indicate some can have a persistent viral infection from rubella vaccine..in my opinion this could leave pregnancies open to rubella infection..I’m now suspecting someone KNOWS, it’s covered up..we damaged an entire generation ..no one is going to admit this.. I’m far more upset today than I was when I first starting posting and reading about this..now..why more boys?

July 14, 2009 at 11:20 pm
(86) Sandy says:

Rubeola is just another name for plain measles. I ask you this, of those women who actually contracted rubella, wouldn’t they then also have circulating maternal antibodies to contribute to their future fetuses? Or any other virus for that matter? Contracting the actual virus would be 100 times more worse than the small amount of it in a vaccine, so one could wonder if that theory would be more towards those who contracted rubella. About 2%-5% of persons don’t develop measles immunity after the first dose of vaccine. That’s why a second is given but if one did test for titers prior to the 2nd vaccine, most times that 2nd vaccine isn’t given. Also in 1963- 1967 kids probably received killed measles vaccine, and was not effective. Not everyone at that time period had a live virus vaccine.

July 15, 2009 at 10:31 am
(87) ANB says:

BarbJ: Your conspiracy theory presupposes that there is an autism epidemic, for which you can present no real evidence.

July 15, 2009 at 10:36 am
(88) barbaraj says:

ANB, it depends on whether we believe the numbers, I do, that doesn’t mean I’m correct. I’m not fond of conspiracy theories, and am not liking some of this information. I did take note that people are resigning from “autism speaks”, it seems because of this vaccine issue. I will spend some time looking at this as I don’t really understand why it should cause someone to resign their position.A debate should just be a debate, until there are hard facts. That “rolling stone” article by robert kennedy jr. is however, somewhat telling.

July 15, 2009 at 10:47 am
(89) autism says:

Barbara – There’s no doubt that the number of people diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders has risen dramatically. The question that ANB and many others (me included) raise is – why?

Are we looking at a huge absolute increase in actual incidences of autism?

Are we looking at a statistical boondoggle created by a combination of changes in laws and diagnostic criteria, media attention, cultural expectations, etc.?

Or are we looking (as I believe) at a small increase in absolute numbers of people with autism combined with an assortment of other issues?

Lisa (autism guide)

July 15, 2009 at 1:43 pm
(90) Sandy says:

We can look at many studies, such as rubella-associated arthritis, and attempt to make it fit in with autism. I myself would like to see a study larger than 7 participants before I’d suggest a cover up. I will say that rubella-associated arthritis may have very little to do with autism cases but I will say personally if that vaccine does, consider a live child with autism opposed to a dead child prenatal. 20,000 fetal deaths is a horrible number to think about who those children might had grown up to be. I myself would opt for that live child with autism, but that is just me.

I do not believe the autism numbers and it’s hard to believe their accuracy when it’s coming from educational, not medical. We have no idea which of those within that educational system actually have a medical diagnosis, or simply qualified for an educational IEP/ special ed. In the state I live, you can get an autism IEP without a medical diagnosis, plus in some states regardless of diagnosis, the IEP is termed Developmentally Delayed until the age of 9. Consider all those not in that count. No body knows of those rates who had what vaccine, child or parent. And finally, since there is no defining medical test for autism, it being a DSM upon observed behaviors, there is a large margin for error on both ends as well as other disorder’s “look” like autism.

Didn’t the Rolling Stones article have some retraction after it was released?

July 15, 2009 at 2:49 pm
(91) AutismNewsBeat says:

“ANB, it depends on whether we believe the numbers, I do, that doesn’t mean I’m correct.”

Which numbers? Generation Rescue still says the rate has increased from 1:10,000 in 1983 to 1:150 today. I hope you’re not falling for that nonsense. In 1983, Asperger’s and PDD-NOS weren’t listed in the DSM. There was only one PDD back then, and it was autism disorder.

The way AD was diagnosed in 1983 was far more restrictive than it is today.

Here’s some background on how autism has been diagnosed over the decades:


July 15, 2009 at 5:10 pm
(92) Sandy says:

ANB~ correct, which numbers of rates? In my state, you don’t need a medical diagnosis for the school to term an IEP autism, and here the rates are 1:81 and in one school district alone of all districts, those with autism are predominately Somali children which leads one to guess there is a genetic predisposition if we’re to believe they all have autism. Now one would have to venture further to the Somali community to figure out what vaccines they had prior to coming to the USA, which children were born here and which were not… which actually have autism or does the school term these children that to gain those extra funds?

Back in 1983, rarely was a child diagnosed with autism. They were labeled MR.

July 15, 2009 at 5:25 pm
(93) barbaraj says:

I’m sorry, I agree that seven arthritis victims don’t make a study, however, seven who are infected with rubella, six from the vaccines do suggest an active infection caused by vaccine is possible.That’s what I was looking for, an active rubella infection which “could” lead to the possibility of a “new” kind of congenital rubella. I see far too many damaged children, more than 1 in 150. Rubella may have nothing to do with the development of autism, but an interesting case can be made for it. I remember reading in Merck that a side effect of the mmr was ear infection,I saw, and this is recently in my “google” travels, that immune systems have been really hit hard by certain variants of mmr, in some cases leading children to die of “other” illnesses in the five years following injection. Scary stuff, I think , that we can damage immune systems this badly and not blink.

July 15, 2009 at 5:50 pm
(94) barbaraj says:

I just read Dr.London’s resignation letter, and I agree with him. Children will die because parents are confused, they won’t take any shots for fear that the one they “get” may be the one to damage their baby. This is a sad,sad state of affairs. Science has come far enough to tell us, instead we allow the drug companies to fund research,there is profit in their lies, adding to the confusion. Certainly we can make a safer vaccine if need be to replace a particularly dangerous one, but to lie and breed fear will have terrible repercussions.These diseases are not the benign ones we remember as children, the age of contagion has changed because of the shots, we can’t fix that, but we can lobby for safety and new vaccines.

July 15, 2009 at 6:26 pm
(95) AutismNewsBeat says:

That’s what I was looking for, an active rubella infection which “could” lead to the possibility of a “new” kind of congenital rubella.

BarbJ, you’re citing a 27 year old study. The HPV 77 “duck “embryo” vaccine hasn’t been used in the U.S. since 1979, when we switched to the RA 27/3 strain, a cold-temperature adapted strain with significantly fewer side effects.

Which “benign” diseases are you talking about? Before the introduction of the live attenuated varicella vaccine in 1995, approximately 4 million cases of chicken pox occurred annually in the US, resulting in approximately 11,000 hospitalizations and 100 deaths, according to the CDC.

Measles killed 200,000 people last year, mostly children. Is that what you mean be “benign”?

It’s not the drug companies who are scaring parents. It’s people who mindlessly parrot Jenny McCarthy’s talking points. A sad, sad state of affairs indeed.

July 15, 2009 at 6:49 pm
(96) Sandy says:

The thing is, no one yet has stated what is unsafe about the vaccine(s) and it seems more a genetic predisposition than the vaccine itself, or more people would be effected by it.

And I agree with ANB, unless some one has facts about vaccines, it is nothing but a fear factor spread by others on alot of possible “if’s”.

Drug/ vaccine companies have saved many from fetal death, I think the only one who profits is those who didn’t die, yet no one considers any thing but they ‘have’ to be in it for the money and hiding evidence. In their day, those who invented this and that vaccine were deemed hero’s. Today they are the scapegoat for blame.

July 15, 2009 at 11:35 pm
(97) barbaraj says:

ANB yes, a 27 year old study,indicating that rubella infection can persist in vaccinated women. My point was this, these are the mothers of the newest generation.
I am not anti vaccine, I am not fighting for no vaccines, I just think greed has taken over the “shop” and safety is not nearly the consideration it should be. For example the roto vaccine , the hep b, the hpv, these vaccines are flawed and continue to be marketed. Kawasaki disease is the LEADING cause of aquired heart disease in children and has long been linked to vaccines, roto the most current. We do NOT count the deaths and disabilities associated with bad vaccines, we don’t measure them up against the stats for mortality and morbidity given to us weekly by our cdc. We have laws to prevent compensation thrown into homeland security actions, so no one notices? Vaers only accepts the most absolute linked, yet even they have 13000 events including 39 deaths for an hpv vaccine that has never been proven to prevent one cancer.Did those girls need to die or suffer disabilities? There is greed here that seems to have overpowered the good and it should be recognised. I want a tetanus shot for my kids, a measle shot, diphtheria,and on and on, but I want safety not profit to be the main factor when these shots are manufactured. My four year old grandson was given an hib shot in 2007, that was recalled for bacterial contamination, is this really acceptable? How often does this happen? This particular “contaminant” can cause brain damage and death, did they tell us this, no, they said, no adverse effects were expected. Affected children, are they identified as vaccine damaged,not likely. We need to fix this, not argue it. Vaccines cause damage, they often cause more damage than the diseases they were intended to prevent.

July 15, 2009 at 11:58 pm
(98) Sandy says:

Vaers accepts reports by anyone, many are not even doctor/ medical confirmed. A link to something does not mean much either. There is no concrete proof via a simple link. Any one’s children have rotovirus? Mine did as a toddler. It was horrible and he could had dehydrated or damage organ’s. Contamination happens in alot of different places and food industry too. It happens, sadly, but it was not intentful with malice. My sister has an insulin pump that’s been recalled. Human error is just going to happen in this world. Bugs and viruses just have a way of sneaking in when no one is looking.

History has shown vaccines cause less damage to the majority than the disease. If damage is caused for some, it’s more than likely due to genetics, other factors not known or released or just plain blame, as vaccines are blamed for every disorder out there. vaccines have been ‘linked’ to them all. We could all take a field trip to the 3rd world contries where vaccines are not used, and how many children are dying from preventable childhood diseases. That was the USA prior to vaccines. No one edication or vaccine will be safe for all, it’s impossible. There will never be a safer greener vaccine for every human body on the face of the earth. Impossible. However diseases pretty much have the same track record for most.

Vaccines are not for every one or every family, each needs to decide that for themselves and their own risk factors to the exposures present. I in no way could know those risk factors for another family.

July 16, 2009 at 12:10 am
(99) Sandy says:

“Anyone can report to VAERS. The majority of VAERS reports are sent in by vaccine manufacturers (42%) and health care providers (30%). The remaining reports are obtained from state immunization programs (12%), vaccine recipients (or their parent/guardians, 7%) and other sources (9%). Vaccine recipients or their parents or guardians are encouraged to seek the help of their health care professional in filling out the VAERS form.”
“The fact that an adverse event occurred following immunization is not conclusive evidence that the event was caused by a vaccine. Factors such as medical history and other medications given near the time of the vaccination must be examined to determine if they could have caused the adverse event. It is important to remember that many adverse events reported to VAERS may not be caused by vaccines.”

It’s interesting anyone can submit a report, but more interesting that vaccine manufacturers make up the bulk of those reports.

July 16, 2009 at 12:19 am
(100) AutismNewsBeat says:

BarbJ, that’s quite a list of anti-vaccine talking points you just laid out.

For example the roto vaccine, the hep b, the hpv, these vaccines are flawed and continue to be marketed.

RotaTeq is 98 percent effective at preventing rotovirus, which kills about 1,800 children every day. It replaced RotoShield, which was linked to intussusception, a rare and potentially fatal blocking of the small intestine. Rotateq was never linked to intussesception, despite what your fave websites are saying.

Hep B is a nasty disease which can lead to fatal liver damage. The vaccine is way safer than hepatitis – not even close.

Gardasil has been linked temporally to 19 deaths (not 39), according to the CDC, but there is no reason to believe the vaccine caused any of the deaths. It’s a cruel world, and sometimes teenage girls die from strokes, heart attack, respiratory failure and for other reasons. Please don’t take my word for it – check out the CDC’s mortality reports for young girls – the death rates are the same pre Gardasil as post. Considering that some 22 million doses of Gardasil were administered between the summer of 2006 and Dec., 2008, it would be remarkable if no deaths occurred within 288 days of injection.

Sandy is right about VAERS – it’s a voluntary reporting system. You could enter your cat’s name in VAERS (and people have). My daughter came down with a strep throat a few weeks ago. It was on a Saturday, two days after her first Gardasil shot. I could easily have entered that incident in VAERS, and I still could. But why? How could Gardasil cause strep throat? Gardasil doesn’t even use a virus, living or dead. It uses a snippet of protein to trick the immune system into creating antibodies for HPV. How cool is that?

July 16, 2009 at 10:47 am
(101) barbaraj says:

Observation, imo, will have to be relied upon for the most part in any decision making for our own children. I don’t believe this should be an argument, it should be fact finding, and in the case of vaccines and side effects most rely on the studies and the voices of the very people that perhaps should be held accountable. Money and corporate interests can pay for eloquent speakers and convincing “studies” . I see similar issues that make me go hmm. What benefit does spraying lawns , hospital and school campuses provide that outweighs the dangers? Is one dandelion free yard worth one lymphoma? What do we do with our poisons and vaccines when we are forced to stop using them? Are we really interested in saving lives or corporate interests? I don’t know, but to those that say I find things on my “favorite web sites”, is an attempt to belittle any information I share. It becomes personal, and being personal is just a waste of time.

July 16, 2009 at 6:26 pm
(102) AutismNewsBeat says:

If you don’t want your “information” challenged, then you need to take greater care to assure it is accurate. If you are incapable, then it’s best you spend your time elsewhere.

July 16, 2009 at 7:09 pm
(103) Sandy says:

The thing is, we’re not finding the facts needed, and we wont. Those scientists with “corporate interests” those vaccine makers who are reporting to VAERS are the ones who are going to find those facts and answers. On a blog? all it is, is discussion purposes. And it is true, not every web site has accurate reliable info, VAERS would be one, and the site which states 39 deaths of Gardasil. SItes inflate the numbers to prove their agenda’s all the time, and web surfers need to be wary of that.

People who have allergies don’t much care for dandelions.

July 17, 2009 at 2:39 pm
(104) Tanners Dad says:

Wow lisa you really are creating a firestorm with some of your middle of the road posts. Both sides want to take you to task. I just want to thank you again for your never ending support of the parents. Also it is great to have a neutral ground to debate the topic. We do need to all be focused on Insurance Reform Right now. Pelosi pulled Autism from the healthcare reform bill H.R. 3200 Please call her today 202 225 0100 Thanks

July 18, 2009 at 2:05 am
(105) barbaraj says:

I really didn’t mind anyone claiming the information I came across was wrong, I was, however, not understanding why it became so personal. I have nothing new to offer, it’s all been said, I’ve looked at many, many web sites, and reviewed many studies, at this time I believe there should be an outcry for funding for research, for private/non pharmaceutical co. connected research,perhaps it would be best for research to be done outside of our government,as well.I saw some disturbing connections between drug companies and court systems, all very suspect indeed.I’m pretty certain none of this information is new, I don’t understand why it’s acceptable to so many. For myself, I picked a side in the last few days, because of overwhelming evidence, imo,that indicates our children are being damaged by these vaccines. There is no earlier diagnosis,more encompassing criteria, that could possibly account for the increased numbers. In fact, the way I see it, it’s underreported , the numbers are worse than 1/150. Time will tell, and from the “interesting” resistance it will probably be a “long” time. I suppose I’ve always been wary, my youngest son is 42, he did not have a small pox vaccination, my pediatrician told me there had been 300 deaths that year from the vaccine and that small pox was erradicated. By the time he was five, the program was halted, he is the only 42 year old adult he knows that did not have that vaccine.

July 18, 2009 at 9:55 am
(106) ANB says:

perhaps it would be best for research to be done outside of our government..

Over 30 studies conducted over two decades across three continents – none have found an association between vaccines and autism. Studies in Denmark, Japan, Finaland, Canada. The evidence is overwhelming, and accepted by scientists who specialize in vaccines and autism. It doesn’t matter what Dr. Bernadine Healy says – she’s a cardiologist by training, who was a political appointee under George HW Bush.

There is no earlier diagnosis,more encompassing criteria, that could possibly account for the increased numbers.</i?

No serious person is saying that earlier diagnosis and changing criteria are the only reasons for increased diagnoses. What numbers are you looking at when you say there is an autism epidemic?

July 18, 2009 at 10:10 am
(107) AutismNewsBeat says:

My pediatrician told me there had been 300 deaths that year from the vaccine and that small pox was eradicated.

Smallpox was eradicated worldwide in 1979. The most common fatality related to smallpox vaccines was post-vaccinal encephalitis, which occured in 3-12 persons per million who were vaccinated for smallpox prior to 1960. About 15-25% of people who develop this complication die, and 25% develop some type of permanent brain damage.


Your pediatrician was either mistaken, or you aren’t remembering the conversation correctly.

The US military vaccinated 450,000 military personnel, dependents and contractors for smallpox between Dec. 2003 and May 2004. Only 38 persons developed complications serious enough for hospitalization, and all fully recovered.

By offering accurate information I’m not attacking you. This is serious business, and spreading misinformation, even unknowingly, is not helpful and only adds to the unfounded concerns over vaccine safety. Yes, vaccination carries a risk, but so does everything in life. The point is that vaccine injury is far more rare than anti-vaccine activists let on, and that vaccines are far safer than the diseases they protect us from.

July 18, 2009 at 12:44 pm
(108) Sandy says:

Smallpox Vaccination and Adverse

“A review of vaccinia-related deaths (68) during a 9-year period (1959–1966 and 1968) revealed that deaths occurred among first-time vaccinees as a result of PVE (52%; 36 cases) and PV (28%; 19 cases) and among contacts as a result of EV (18%; 12 cases) (23).” Death from Smallpox Immunization
Death occurring after smallpox immunization is most often caused by post-vaccinial encephalitis or progressive vaccinia. Prior to 1960, approximately 1 to 2 people out of every 1 million people vaccinated died.”

Without showing the evidence, the doctor may and was incorrect and that 300 death toll from that vaccine. Even here, when people make a comment as such w/o the evidence, people may also believe that figure, this is why I am posting since that is an inaccurate fugure for any year.

July 18, 2009 at 1:19 pm
(109) AutismNewsBeat says:

Mark Twain once wrote “A lie can travel half way around the world before the truth can get its boots on.” Vaccine and autism myths travel even faster. That’s why it’s important to set the record straight.

July 18, 2009 at 1:58 pm
(110) barbaraj says:

There must be something that makes you believe your information is more correct than mine. By making this a fight you are missing the point, which is, we often find ourselves accepting risks that outweigh benefits, the small pox vaccine being the example. (btw there have been no cases in the US since 1949), and yes, I trust my Hopkin’s trained doctor had correct information. I do see online where it is mentioned as 300 deaths during a time period void of disease. Perhaps I did remember it wrong, perhaps he “knew” the real numbers, does it change anything? We knew children were dying , where was the benefit? While sp vaccine is an extreme example, what would we do if we knew we were damaging one in 66 boys with the mmr.

July 18, 2009 at 2:26 pm
(111) AutismNewsBeat says:

There must be something that makes you believe your information is more correct than mine.

When I rebut your misleading claims, using actual citations where you provide none, then it is safe to say my information is more correct than yours.

By making this a fight you are missing the point, which is, we often find ourselves accepting risks that outweigh benefits, the small pox vaccine being the example.

How am I making this a fight? Should we just split the baby and say we are both right? Is that what an autism moderate does? You’ve volunteered to spread misleading information in the comment section of a New York Times blog. This isn’t a fight – it’s free speech.

In an age of jet travel, it is frighteningly easy to carry dangerous pathogens from one part of the globe to another. That’s why the US vaccinated for smallpox up to 1972. In that same year, a pilgrim returning to Yugoslavia from the middle east infected 130 people, resulting in 35 deaths. That was well after smallpox had been eradicated on the European continent.

There must be something that makes you believe that couldn’t have happened in the US at the same time.

While sp vaccine is an extreme example, what would we do if we knew we were damaging one in 66 boys with the mmr.

Your hypothetical question does nothing to further the debate. I could just as easily ask “what if we were damaging one in 66 boys by not making MMR vaccination compulsory?” Do you have any evidence that MMR vaccine causes autism? Are you aware that Japan stopped using the MMR vaccine for a three year period in the early 90s, and that children who skipped that vaccine are just as likely to develop autism as the vaccinated population?

Incidentally, Japan suffered an outbreak of mumps in the late 90s that closed some universities. Coincidence?

July 18, 2009 at 4:01 pm
(112) Sandy says:

I disagree, this no where reads like a fight. This is exchanging info. I see that with ANB, just sharing differing info and since we know many sites inflate numbers and info, it’s always good to have more than one side to make an educated opinion. There is no intent on my part to conduct fighting, and I never have on this site. I have read some very nasty comments in the past and some angry people; this thread is not one of them. Disagreeing and sharing info is not fighting. It’s communicating. Since this is a public blog where anyone can read, it’s only right to offer what we find creditable. Let some one make that choice of risks for themselves wit as much info as possible, no one should make it by only reading what one person has to say. That is not communication.

Smallpox has been killing people since the 15th century, it’s one disease that’s been around forever. Smallpox killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans each year during the 18th century. 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox was responsible for 300–500 million deaths. 1967, the World Health Organization estimated that 15 million people contracted the disease and that two million died in that year, even if those were not within the USA people travel.
Studies of smallpox cases in Europe in the 1950s and 1960s demonstrated that the fatality rate among persons vaccinated less than 10 years before exposure was 1.3%; it was 7% among those vaccinated 11 to 20 years prior, and 11% among those vaccinated 20 or more years prior to infection. By contrast, 52% of unvaccinated persons died.
The interesting thing about smallpox is it’s one thing that’s threatened as bio warfare.

Regardless, that vaccine has if any little to do with autism today. I am older than the age offered and I never had a smallpox vaccine.

July 18, 2009 at 4:35 pm
(113) barbaraj says:

Things that make ya’ go hmmm..honda/rutter study..

Psychiatrist Professor Sir Michael Rutter is a former (recent) Deputy Chairman of the immensely wealthy Wellcome Trust (founded by the Wellcome Foundation which is now Glaxo)

This is a very serious topic, please don’t assume I think of it in any other way.

July 18, 2009 at 4:45 pm
(114) Sandy says:

ANB~ to further comment towards your info what could or couldn’t happen (not to over step or intending to cause anything) a McDonalds worker in the county where I live was found to have TB, which infects the lungs and is air born. It is estimated that the US has 25,000 new cases of tuberculosis each year, 40% of which occur in immigrants from countries where tuberculosis is endemic. There’s about 1.6 million deaths. When you hear someone working where you’re getting fast food has TB, that is far more frightening than any vaccine. People with other things going on medically have a higher risk of contracting TB and I suppose other preventable diseases as well. There is no vaccine for TB.

The thing with vaccines is without them and if you contract something, least say the measles. A child who is 5 can probably handle measles as long as they don’t have any lung disorders prior, but he could infect babies too young for the vaccine and it’s the younger kids more at risk, and younger kids who do spread more of these germs to others. No one knows if their child contracted whatever, if their child would survive or not. That is the risk to weigh.

As for autism, studies and so forth, no one will ever agree on the Japan, Danish and what have you however offering that info is always good so other’s can decided their own family risk factors not based on you nor I or anyone else just because they say so.

I do not know what causes autism, however I do know how to prevent some things. Autism and the chickenpox would be horrible. Autism and the measles resulting in death would be unforgivable on my end. I have a cousin who had a MMR reaction, but no long term effects. my mother never believed in vaccines due to her father (my grand father) not based on fact, but fear. I am part of a generation to help stop fear by helping with info, not so people will follow my choices, but so they can make their own best choice since none of us knows what causes autism.

July 18, 2009 at 6:07 pm
(115) Sandy says:

Another one that makes you go hmmmm is Andrew Wakefield.
GlaxoSmithKline seems to produce many different products, so it doesn’t really seem all too important to me if Professor Sir Michael Rutter had any connection to them. You didn’t provide any info to that possible link but I didn’t find one. It would seem if you think there was a connection, please show us. What’s serious about this topic is accusing this man of something. Just a quick search of the man anyone can see the studies he did and I’m not sure if any at all had any connection (good or bad) to GlaxoSmithKline. Many of his studies were about adoption, John Bowlby & Attachment Theory, and studies of autism involving scientific techniques and disciplines, including DNA study and neuroimaging

July 18, 2009 at 7:30 pm
(116) barbaraj says:


something was going on here…compare this mmr information to the chart in the honda/rutter study, and you can see that the rate of autism was going down for the three years preceding 1993…parents had lost trust and weren’t getting the shot..then in 1993 the shot was removed and the rate soared..?? sorry..this is very suspect…the decline perhaps demanded this glaxo related study to negate what appeared to be a trend..
this is my “opinion”..

July 18, 2009 at 8:14 pm
(117) Sandy says:

Well, I don’t see much about autism in this link, however did anyone notice the rate of measles and deaths due to it? The highest rate of measles was for the 1 year old age group, prior to the age of getting the MMR. The 2nd highest rate was age 7 to 12 months old.

July 18, 2009 at 8:31 pm
(118) AutismNewsBeat says:

BarbJ, think about what you are implying – that Dr. Rutter fixed the data on his MMR study, and that hundreds of vaccine researchers around the world either missed something that you just caught, or they are staying silent for reasons we are left to guess. That begs credulity.

Besides, the Rutter study is just one of 24 or more that have looked for, and failed to find, an association between MMR and autism. Dr. Mady Hornig lists 23 in her study from last fall – where she replicated, but failed to reproduce the results of, Wakefield’s seminal 1998 paper.

Do you really believe that hundreds of thousands of researchers, doctors (including Hannah Poling’s physician), immunologists, developmental psychologists, academics, politicians, writers, and drug company personnel have successfully conspired to hide a demonstrable connection between MMR and autism? Do you understand the prestige that would be accorded any scientist who proved such a link?

That’s just my informed opinion.

July 18, 2009 at 9:51 pm
(119) barbaraj says:

What I saw was a dramatic increase in measles, yes, I never suggested that we shouldn’t have a safe vaccine, and I truly believe the illness is far “LESS” benign than it was in my generation. However, in those years, 90,91,92 when parents refused the shot there was a noticeable drop in autism. When the shot was removed as charted in the honda/rutter paper,replaced with a single shot rubella and single shot measles, the autism rate soared. His conclusion seems flawed, autism soars when mmr is no longer given, well “yes”, but it was replaced by single shots , if you notice the vaccination schedule, at one year of age. I question this, again, just my opinion.
Drug companies are powerful, journals, teaching hospitals,some practices, couldn’t operate without pharm monies.
btw, Was this psychiatrist scientifically trained to put this “study” together using the scientific method? I see no control group.

July 18, 2009 at 10:48 pm
(120) Sandy says:

Which Honda/ Rutter paper? This one?

No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.
Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M.
BACKGROUND: A causal relationship between the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine and occurrence of autism spectrum disorders (ASD) has been claimed, based on an increase in ASD in the USA and the UK after introduction of the MMR vaccine. However, the possibility that this increase is coincidental has not been eliminated. The unique circumstances of a Japanese MMR vaccination program provide an opportunity for comparison of ASD incidence before and after termination of the program. METHODS: This study examined cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven for children born from 1988 to 1996 in Kohoku Ward (population approximately 300,000), Yokohama, Japan. ASD cases included all cases of pervasive developmental disorders according to ICD-10 guidelines. RESULTS: The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993. CONCLUSIONS: The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.

July 18, 2009 at 11:16 pm
(121) AutismNewsBeat says:

So you’re saying that Rutter fudged the data to appease his drug company overlords, but failed to omit data that show just how wrong his conclusions are?

I apologize if I’ve misinterpreted your past comments. I don’t have Rutter’s data in front of me.

July 18, 2009 at 11:23 pm
(122) AutismNewsBeat says:

Autism increased as fewer children received MMR, and rose dramatically among children who didn’t receive the MMR jab. Interesting.

July 18, 2009 at 11:46 pm
(123) barbaraj says:

Yes, it is interesting, no shot was available for the parents that refused the mmr, for years 90/91/92 the chart shows a decline in autism….in 93 they pulled the mmr and replaced it with two single shots, rubella and measles , both given at age one..autism soared..yes, interesting…not combined but given ,according to the chart, at likely the same visit..

July 18, 2009 at 11:52 pm
(124) barbaraj says:

In essence the study proved the opposite of it’s intent, it shows that no shots (both measles and rubella for years 90/91/92) reduced autism, and then measles/rubella , while not in a combined shot, however, given at the same time may be more dangerous than the replaced mmr..extremely interesting..
in my opinion

July 19, 2009 at 12:11 am
(125) Sandy says:

There’s only been one study to date that suggested the link between MMR and autism, and that was in 1998. Since that year, many have tried t replicate that study, and have yet to find those same results. Thereafter, that one and only study was debunked for critical flaws and misconduct. There has also been studies of single jabs having no effect to the autism and autism rates.

A 1998 population study of Swedish children found no difference in the prevalence of autistic children born before and after the 1982 introduction of the MMR vaccine in Sweden.

A 2002 retrospective cohort study of all 537,303 children born in Denmark from January 1991 through December 1998 found no statistically significant difference in risk of autism among the 440,655 who were vaccinated with MMR. This study provided strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR vaccination causes autism.

In February 2004, a population-based case-controlled study of 624 cases and 1,824 matched controls, conducted by the Centers for Disease Control, found no evidence to support an association between MMR and autism.

In January 2005, a study of all younger residents of Olmsted County, Minnesota reported an eightfold increase in the age-adjusted incidence of research-identified autism over a period beginning in the early eighties and ending in the late nineties, but found no evidence of a link with MMR. The study’s authors said that the timing of the increase suggested that it may have been due to improved awareness of the disorder, a growth in services, and changing definitions.

Japan provided a natural experiment on the subject: combined MMR vaccine was introduced in 1989, but the programme was terminated in 1993 and only single vaccines used thereafter. In March 2005 a study of over 30,000 children (278 cases) born in one district of Yokohama concluded “The incidence of all autistic spectrum disorders (ASD), and of autism, continued to rise after MMR vaccine was discontinued. The incidence of autism was higher in children born after 1992 who were not vaccinated with MMR than in children born before 1992 who were vaccinated. The incidence of autism associated with regression was the same during the use of MMR and after it was discontinued.” The authors concluded: “The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.”

A 2007 study found that there was no change in the rates of regressive autism after MMR was withdrawn from Japan.

A 2008 study examined the blood of children aged about 10 years that had been given the MMR vaccine, and found no difference in levels of measles virus or antibodies between children diagnosed with autism and those who had not.

read more

July 19, 2009 at 12:36 am
(126) barbaraj says:

Thanks Sandy, I will. I’m looking at the politics/drug co. connections to the Wakefield saga. I do believe any man who makes a solid case against the mmr will be vilified,not honored.

July 19, 2009 at 12:45 am
(127) barbaraj says:

I found this, it seems there is a current investigation…
UK Press Complaints Commission Orders Sunday Times

“Remove MMR Journalist’s Stories”

on Dr. Wakefield from Paper’s Web Site

Work by Reporter Brian Deer is at Center of

Investigation Being Conducted by Medical Regulators

July 19, 2009 at 12:49 am
(128) barbaraj says:

It’s going to be a long night, could I have expected this ;)
The overall boss for The Sunday Times, James Murdoch, CEO of News International, is also on the Board of MMR vaccine supplier and litigation defendant GlaxoSmithKline

Let’s see..Deer discredits wakefield around the world..amazing that his paper is pharm

July 19, 2009 at 1:02 am
(129) Sandy says:

It is interesting to note when looking at other countries studies of which criteria they use when compared to other studies. It should also be mentioned if one researched inough, they’d learn Japan is suppose to have the higest rates of autism of all countries, and that rise started in 1970, prior to the use of any MMR or single jab vaccines. One also has to consider the onset of autism as well. There’s much more than face value of any study.

July 19, 2009 at 1:20 am
(130) Sandy says:

There was no politics/drug co. connected to Wakefield, attorneys were though. “Dr. Wakefield from Paper’s Web Site” is in violation of some gag order by posting that on his site. That should continue to be interesting as time goes on. Deer didn’t discredit Wakefield, Wakefield discredited himself and a reporter maybe only helped for the public to find the truth. Thruth be told, and who replicated Wakefields study never ever came up with those same findings. Wakefield’s study also was only of 12 children, hardly a study at all. There was no non-autism samples either. We could compare the rate of measles in the UK, how many died and how many have long term health issues related to it. Not everyone in the world is connected to the Pharms, many suspect they are and use it to scare people to think there is some evil plot that money is the motive, not healthy children. Funny, that depending on what reporter it is, they are hailed a hero while others who find just as important things are deemed a villain. Get a second opinion and read Deer’s blog and articles. I’m not here to argue anyone’s hero’s. The evidence is out there.
I don’t plan to make this a long night.This topic is about over with as far as I’m concerned.

July 19, 2009 at 1:26 am
(131) barbaraj says:

Absolutely Sandy, I agree. I can offer this, in 1957 my neighbor, a doctor, gave his two girls a measle shot. The rubella shot, I believe wasn’t available until 1969. I remember when medicine was much more conservative ,doctors didn’t give more than one shot at a time. Just a guess, but perhaps there is an unknown synergistic effect and they shouldn’t be given together whether in a combo or single shots timed for the same visit.Could this explain the 1970 Japanese autism?

July 19, 2009 at 1:55 am
(132) barbaraj says:

When I was a kid we were painted with merthiolate for every bug bite, scrape or cut. In high school we all dumped “quick silver” into our hands and watched it roll around. I can’t think that thimerasol is responsible for autism since we aren’t all old “mad hatters”.
There are numbers, albeit small for years before 1970, perhaps these can be accounted for by some infants getting both diseases within a short period of time, giving the same synergy as combined shots to cause “some kind of autoimmune response”. Remember I have a child who developed crohn’s after his measle shot, he did NOT develop autism, he did not have a rubella shot.

July 19, 2009 at 9:07 am
(133) AutismNewsBeat says:

Wakefield hypothesized a connection between Crohns and MMR in the early 1990s, and conducted some studies. He found nothing, then moved on to autism. Wakefield had also applied for a patent to break up the MMR into three separate shots. If MMR prevented autism (Rutter, 2005), then why would Wakefield want to discourage parents from using MMR?

Wakefield demanded an investigation by the General Medical Council after Deer’s stories were published. A Google news search turns up half a dozen stories that quote Wakefield saying, variously, that he “welcomed”, “encouraged” and “insisted upon” a GMC investigation.

The Times of London voluntarily removed its stories on Wakefield until the conclusion of the press hearing. When Wakefield lied and said the paper was “ordered” to remove the stories, the Times put them back up. You can read about it here:


LBRB sources all of its claims.

July 19, 2009 at 9:25 am
(134) Sandy says:

Thimerosal makes better science than the MMR does. You cant compare what you were exposed to on the skin, it’s not the same. You can be exposed to lead all day long but swallow some, it’s deadly. I’d imagine had you swallowed some quick silver or the bug stuff, you’d had become seriously ill.

Doesn’t seem to have anything to do with vaccines in Japan for the increase in the 70′s; it coincided with criteria change. Same with the USA, rates were consistently low until after 1988.
You can guess forever, but you’d have to look at their schedule to see many vaccines overlap and no one knows if Japan did or did not give more than one vaccine in a visit.
In the past when vaccines were first being invented (which goes way back to the 1700′s) they didn’t know everything. Many died due to bacteria in vaccines so there was the use of Thimerosal. I’m not exactly sure what you theory is, single jabs or not the use of the rubella vaccine at all? You’ve mentioned both. Either way, guesses or not, many studies have been performed (with larger participants that 12 and also samples of both those with and without autism) that show no link to the MMR at all. There’s also studies that show single jabs makes no difference but that really doesn’t prove as important that if there’s no link found in the MMR than any part of it in a single jab would make a difference. In the UK which would have had the largest MMR rejection due to the Wakefield scare still have kids being born with autism but also much higher rates of measles which include deaths. Those studies are far more than a simple guess and if we’re here to talk about guesses while there’s so many studies to show more than a guess, we’re not being real productive. I’m not even sure why we’re discussing Japan. Their environmental’s, product uses, food intake may all play a role. It’s hard to look at the whole picture of another country. What do you think about the Danish Study?

July 19, 2009 at 12:03 pm
(135) AutismNewsBeat says:

Same with the USA, rates were consistently low until after 1988.

The DSM-III(R) was first published in 1988, which included PDD-NOS for the first time. Today, about half of kids on the spectrum have a PDD-NOS diagnosis. Before 1988 they were labeled schizophrenic, MR, or learning disabled, to name a few. Asperger’s wasn’t added until 1994. This is all news to most people who assume an autism epidemic. They think “autism” has always meant the same thing. It hasn’t.

Comparing autism rates between countries is also problematic. Differences in culture, diagnostic criteria, health care delivery and physician attitudes all factor in. Additionally, diagnoses for autism tend to follow services – countries (and states) that don’t offer much help for PDDs tend to report lower rates.

What we call autism goes by other names in some countries. Korea, for instance, had no reported cases of autism for many years – it was called “childhood attachment disorder” (IIRC). But a major epidemiological study, funded by Autism Speaks has, not surprisingly, found autism in Korea at rates close to ours.

Autism, is like anything else – the closer you look for it, the more you will find.

The Danish study has been rightly criticized for not taking certain administrative changes into account during the study period. What’s important is the results still line up with every other vaccine-autism study that has found no association between MMR and autism. So while the study may been flawed (and all studies are to one extent or another), the error was not egregious enough to discount it entirely. Besides, no single study is dispositive. More than two dozen studies have looked for an association between MMR and autism, and all came up empty.

July 19, 2009 at 12:21 pm
(136) AutismNewsBeat says:

I’d imagine had you swallowed some quick silver or the bug stuff, you’d had become seriously ill.

If you swallow enough quicksilver you become mercury poisoned, but not autistic. They are very different.

A German man attempted suicide about 15 years ago by swallowing 5 grams of thimerosal. He became very ill, but recovered completely after only 30 days of chelation therapy. The case report is available at PubMed.

July 19, 2009 at 12:22 pm
(137) Sandy says:

Take a look at what Japan is producing currently-
Autism study: Scientists engineer mice with chromosomal syndrome associated with autism
Research could help lead to discovery of what causes disorder

July 19, 2009 at 12:32 pm
(138) Sandy says:

The Danish was highly criticized for not accounting for previous vaccines with Thimerosal in it, which at that time was the newest theory, and then receiving the MMR vaccine. But at the time, the MMR was the first culprit theory and regardless, no link was found.

Interestingly, no one could reproduce Wakefield’s study and he hasn’t reproduced it himself. In a recorded video soon after published to the web, in his own words admitted to critical errors of his study, but taking blood samples outside of a sterile environment shouldn’t prohibit the study findings.

July 19, 2009 at 5:27 pm
(139) barbaraj says:

All of the “studies” seem to be missing something, not quite proving their conclusions. Year of birth , counting autism without having enough years to diagnosis against those that have , not using comparison control groups,I’m guessing we can pick the one we like best and be no more right or wrong than someone with another choice.
I was reading about Reye’s last night, there has been consideration of a genetic component, surely everyone doesn’t get reyes, everyone doesn’t get autism, however ,Reyes is more rare, no one is really looking very hard for that gene. We discussed timing, there are other things that changed in the environment of almost all children in 1970, most of us had heard of reyes and of a “suspected” connection to aspirin, everyone switched to tylenol. Tylenol puts a stress on the liver that is already trying to handle some of the toxins in vaccine, maybe that’s a part of this? Next, 1995 motrin went otc, we were warned not to give it to children with chickenpox because it lowered the immune system and made it more likely to contract lethal necrotising strep. We use these things for the slightest pain or fever and trust that they are harmless, maybe they aren’t.

July 19, 2009 at 5:54 pm
(140) Sandy says:

Exactly, no study is perfect but some are far worse. Some accept Wakefield’s study, some do not. it’s your choice but another’s to point out those flaws, and they always will. No one ever agree’s with any study, more so when it’s disproving what they tend to believe.

No over the counter product is completely harmless and without side effects. Tylenol only is a risk to the liver with extremely prolonged use and over doses (not reading the package). I’m not sure what you mean by “we” use these things for the slightest things, you can only speak for yourself and how you use these products.

July 19, 2009 at 7:40 pm
(141) AutismNewsBeat says:

I’m not sure what she means by “counting autism without having enough years to diagnosis against those that have”.

No one ever agrees with any (?) study, more so when it’s disproving what they tend to believe.

We all have biases and preconceived notions, but a real scientist isn’t afraid to follow the evidence, and change his/her beliefs accordingly. Those who “accept Wakefield’s study” are not looking at all the evidence, but only at what confirms their beliefs. That is the opposite of science.

July 19, 2009 at 10:29 pm
(142) Sandy says:

Well, I think some agree together, but not everyone will ;) I think Wakefield’s study is so flawed he should be ashamed of himself just for offering a study of 12 all having autism, he didn’t have a comparison control group either but many maybe more have a need to believe that study, or a need to find some fault in that one vaccine.

Not sure what enough years to diagnosis against those that have means either. Maybe it means inexperienced docs don’t diagnose when others with more experience do. The only thing all studies are missing is a direct concrete eureka! by george we found the cause for all with autism. They all offer small pieces to one puzzle.

July 20, 2009 at 2:40 pm
(143) ANB says:

What’s even worse is that some of Wakefield’s subjects showed signs of developmental delay before their MMR shot. It’s right there in the medical records that Wakers either didn’t read, or ignored.

July 20, 2009 at 4:46 pm
(144) Sandy says:

Even worse than that, attorney’s wanting to sue funded the study. Cant have a more conflict of interest than that to manipulate the results. Even still, that study wasn’t really about autism even tho it only included 12 with autism. He has stated over and over it was about the gut and measles. But because all the participants had autism, people read between the lines and walla, fear 101 of the MMR vaccine was born.

July 20, 2009 at 4:56 pm
(145) barbaraj says:

So there were ethical problems, funding being number one. That is evident in most studies. I understand other problems were exposing histories and possible invasive testing? I am having a tough time finding where he lied or misrepresented facts. Did he?

July 20, 2009 at 6:41 pm
(146) Sandy says:

Well, if we’re talking about Wakefield, all other authors retracted that study, that says it all.

July 20, 2009 at 8:39 pm
(147) barbaraj says:

These were two quite distinct issues; the first a clinical report of 12 cases and the second, a hypothesis-testing laboratory study to examine for the presence or absence of measles virus in autistic children when compared with appropriate controls.
A minority of the children described in the 1998 Lancet report were part of the second study that was funded in part by the Legal Aid Board (later to become the Legal Services Commission). The relationshi…….quote by
andrew wakefield

and this..http://www.drbilllong.com/Autism/WakefieldIV.html

I believe the Deer information is in question in the courts.

July 20, 2009 at 9:25 pm
(148) Sandy says:

Deer is no different than Kennedy or Kirby.

Wakefield is old news.

July 20, 2009 at 11:06 pm
(149) barbaraj says:


This is from May of this year, I hadn’t seen it before. It’s a different slant than most online.

July 20, 2009 at 11:28 pm
(150) ANB says:

…Barr became convinced that Dr. Wakefield possessed the requisite knowledge of vaccines and was already sympathetic to the role that vaccines might play in leading to debilitating problems, especially GI and developmental problems, in children.

Another red flag. Why would Wakefield be “sympathetic” to the possibility of something for which no real evidence existed? At the very least that was a poor choice of words. At the worst a strong indication that Wakefield rigged the data to produce the results he and Barr needed for their legal case.

Measles RNA has never found in gut biopsies of children with autism. The only thing “true” in Wakefield’s paper is that autistic children have intestines.

July 21, 2009 at 1:01 am
(151) barbaraj says:

I don’t know, I do know what I , as a mother, have experienced, a well child that within weeks of his measle shot developed severe gastro problems and is now an adult living with crohns. When my grandson had his shot, for four months he was bent over in stomach pain, I feared crohn’s, he however, for what ever reason ,recovered, and is fine.When it was time for the second shot, we took him to have a titer measured, it was considered abnormally high, he was not given the second shot. No one seemed to dispute the crohns/measles connection when it was considered caused by the disease, why is it so hard to believe that a live virus/same illness would cause it.

July 21, 2009 at 1:08 am
(152) barbaraj says:
July 21, 2009 at 1:40 am
(153) Sandy says:

Crohns doesn’t have a specific cause, but genes have been linked to it, it runs in families which may account for why to members had symptoms of it. What it could be is that Crones was bound to be there, genetically, and an environmental sparked it up. so could many things do that.

My child had horrible gut issues starting when he got his first tooth very early, until he started to talk. Gut issues are known to be caused by stress, and a non verbal child certainly has his fair share of stress. When my son was 3, he had evasive GI tests performed, due to how severe the gut issues were. I can tell you what the causes were not, and no measles were found in his labs. Once my son started to verbalize and be functionally expressive than passively quiet, his gut issues are about zilch these days.
Some of the gut issues children with autism have are sensory related. Some are allergy related and some allergies can only be known by a gut biopsy, which raise hands who has had those tests for their child? I did.

Unless someone can provide valid studies, or someone like me, who had a child who showed signs of autism at birth (the children in Wakefield’s study had delays prior to the MMR) allowed all vaccines and then the same tests that Wakefield probably did in his study, and could share my kids cute little intestine pictures which contain no measles. As a whole, only a handful might have Crohn’s thereafter an MMR jab, only there’s studies that tells us the majority do not which leads one to wonder about genetics, a test prior to vaccines for those with a depletion or duplication of gene(s) but even then, there’s many more things to be exposed to in this world like antibiotics, the ozone layer… the world is ever changing. At one time no one knew lead paint would be eaten by a child. At one time no one knew mercury in thermometers were dangerous. Maybe one day there will be a test for the very small population that will have side effects from the MMR or any vaccine, but until that day, you either get the vaccine or risk contracting (then exposing other’s) to diseases. That choice is yours and mine to make. I already made mine and have no regrets.

July 21, 2009 at 1:00 pm
(154) barbaraj says:

You are so right Sandy, most of the time I like your logic. If we “could” determine what subset of children have a “gene” or a deficiency in the ability to clear toxins, we could protect them. The problem isn’t just in the science, it’s in the “fear” of the science. It’s been evidenced to be a bad career move to touch the vaccine issues. Among the volumes of “stuff” I’ve read this week was one little article, an epidemiological study, in which newborns were given blood tests, followed up later , and it was discovered that a high percentage of those later being diagnosed with autism had a marker at birth. Maybe this is it, the marker, don’t give shots to kids with the vasoactive intestinal peptid at birth. Why do they always stop with a study, perhaps they could have “not” offered the vaccine for the peptide group and compared autism rates, or at minimum notified the parents of the “suspected peptide” and allowed them to decide whether they wanted to follow through with vaccine. Most often parents have no idea that their child were involved in any study.

July 21, 2009 at 1:51 pm
(155) Sandy says:

That fear of science and vaccines started in 1998, believe it or not. As a result of a poorly conducted study, another fear was created and many were and are contracting something a child doesn’t have to go through. However there has been many studies about vaccines, and not just within this country. I don’t really believe in that bad career choice, that’s something offered in an attempt to prove their point of what they believe and hardly any evidence to accurately prove it. I just do not buy the a scientist(s) would not follow the evidence and conduct a study for fear of his career. I also do not buy into that money thing either. In any profession, you choose it not for the income, but because that’s what you feel you’re good at and interested in doing. I don’t buy that adult people would with intent, harm children for a buck. It makes no sense to harm your potential profit group. You also have to consider the process of how a drug is approved by the FDA. It is literally impossible to have a study that would include all ethnic groups, other medications that could interact (that possibility could be endless) and every humans biology (DNA genes). That’s why there’s recalls. No scientist could possibly know all those things of the whole human population. It’s not an intentional act when a drug is manufactured that the end result was a recall. Once a drug is approved by the FDA, the public is the study, and accept it or not, there’s no other way it can be. Even if a gene was located (and genes seem to be where science is heading), vaccines wouldn’t then be the only consideration. The body is suppose to naturally get rid of substances on it’s own once exposed and in this world there’s zillions of exposure risks. This would mean avoiding vaccines would be a start, but if the child contracted the disease you’d have to worry about how their bodies would then handle that, and autism could result along with other health issues. A common cold could then cause autism. A parent then would need to weigh their risks of either.

My son was just weeks away from getting the RSV vaccine, it was recalled for causing liver issues I believe. I’m not sure what would had been worse, the liver issues or the damage RSV caused my son’s lungs when he caught RSV from a day care kid. One of the more scariest things is to watch an infant struggle for air and their chest deflating beyond belief. I didn’t want my son to have the chickenpox vaccine, it thought it was too new and at the time I knew my kids behavior was different than any kid I’ve ever known but didn’t know it was autism. I did not waiver vaccines and he had the jab. It ended up being a good choice due to his having autism. He picks at every scratch and bug bite on him and creates huge holes. Chickenpox and autism would be a nightmare. I also realize people have chickenpox more than once, so that vaccine doesn’t not mean he wont contract chickenpox from another kid as he did RSV, but I am banking on that vaccine with the hope my child never get’s chickenpox.

Vaccines are not for everyone, and I chose not to base my choice off fear as my own mother did. I would not base my choice from my cousin who did have an MMR side effect and when I chose vaccines, my mother about disowned me. Vaccine topic has been a part of my whole childhood and adult life long before my kid was born. I’ve had the full dose of that fear except these days oddly enough, if a bird flu vaccine comes out my mom said she wants one. I guess that bird flu scares her more than vaccines do. Go figure.

July 21, 2009 at 4:56 pm
(156) AutismNewsBeat says:

Vaccine rejectionism surfaced in the late 1700s, when Edward Jenner showed the people could be inoculated against smallpox. The arguments used then (it’s unnatural, it’s illogical, etc.) are still around today, in one form or another.

July 21, 2009 at 5:59 pm
(157) barbaraj says:

Years ago when I was involved in a lawn pesticide study, I had more than a few veterinarians call me, explaining what they had seen in animals. Maybe that’s what we need, to look at some animal vaccine studies? Interestingly enough, the careers aren’t as at stake in vet medicine, and they are more willing to share.

here’s one..I just picked the first that popped up..

July 21, 2009 at 7:03 pm
(158) Sandy says:

People wear clothes and shoes, and generally do not roll around on the grass. After some water or rain, the quanity would drop as well. Pets would be different and have a higher risk of lawn pesticide side effects.

not all animals would be close enough to the human biology, that’s why they certain animals in studies, and out warnings on packages of lawn pesticides and fertilizers.

July 21, 2009 at 7:14 pm
(159) Sandy says:

Some where in the 1700, a scientist created a vaccine and used it on his own child first, and it worked. He saved his own child first. Imagine being so sure it would work, the man first injected his own child. Another scientist I think for Malaria figured maybe it was the mosquito’s, and injected himself with his vaccine and then had an infected mosquito bit him, and it worked. Imagine a man so sure his new vaccine would work, he injected himself.

These past people tried to saves lives, these days they’re accused of being money-hungry- career go-getters and the poor past people who died and the mothers who ached of that loss are forgotten. I mentioned this before: head up to South Dakota to Deadwood and go see the children section of the cemetary. It wasn’t like those kids in that era socialized at huge malls, yet many died at horribly young ages. All those graves gives a certain perspective of that era and how those mothers must had cried for their dead babies. We’re lucky, autism, GI issues is nothing compared to dead.

July 22, 2009 at 1:14 am
(160) barbaraj says:

Again Sandy, I believe vaccines are one of the wonderful accomplishments of modern medicine. Somewhere, however, I do think we crossed a line. We need only to look at the shape of our financial world to see how much damage greed has done, it just about, short of bail outs, took down our country. We can’t put all of the blame on drug companies for failures to seek safety, but we do have to understand profit is often the driving force. I have seen scientists working for the good bought by major companies ,in essence stopping their work.Drug companies then use them to put their names on studies that they have , at times, never even read. Merck had this revealed during their viox legal battle. It doesn’t happen with one drug, with one company, it is the current way of “doing business”. We don’t want to trust the radicals , even I have refused to read whale, we have ingrained beliefs that mainstream is honest, yet more and more we can see it’s not, daily they are being “caught” conspiring for profit.

July 22, 2009 at 2:03 am
(161) barbaraj says:
July 22, 2009 at 9:34 am
(162) AutismNewsBeat says:

Barbara, if you know that Whale.to is not credible, then you are discriminating enough to stay away from anything Dan Olmsted writes.


A far better source for the history of autism is Unstrange Minds by Dr. Richard Grinker.

July 22, 2009 at 10:10 am
(163) barbaraj says:

ANB,yes, while I’ve avoided the sites that are often considered radical, I haven’t avoided the newspapers, occasionally they name a name, make a suggestion, quote a person, and give a link. To suggest a different , perhaps more body and mind friendly,vaccine schedule doestn’t seem such a radical idea , imo. I am not saying the radical sites are wrong, I’m not suggesting they aren’t credible, I am suggesting they have taken a side and aren’t letting any opposing information in. I feel the same about Deer and others that will compromise ethics to support drug companies. There is valid information to support vaccine involvement in the development of autism, any offer to soften the effects, to avoid more damage ,is welcome, imo. Thirty two vaccines in infancy should ring as dangerous to anyone.

July 22, 2009 at 11:14 am
(164) Sandy says:

Dan Olmsted writes alot of stuff, but never really offers valid proof of much. There’s a zillion links to a zillion things. All that article is doing is speculating. That’s pretty much all Dan Olmsted does is speculate.

I’m not sure Deer is supporting anything but the truth. People accuse other’s of many things but without proof, that’s only speculation as well.

Where does 32 vaccines in infancy come from? Your own experience or off a web site? That might ring of danger if it were true. All anyone has to do is go count the jabs on the schedule, and that number doesn’t only include infant months, it goes up to 4-6 years. After a year old, it’s not infant anymore. Count the vaccines from zero to 1 years old and see what you come up with, but pretty scary to state 32 in infancy.

What is a friendly vaccine schedule? Most states have waivers- my sister didn’t even have a waiver and her son just due to no insurance didn’t start any vaccines until he was 4. No one forces vaccines, once a child goes to daycare or public school, you either need proof of vaccines or a waiver. My sister started later and had him caught up by school time. How much more friendlier can that get? The key word on the USA schedule is ‘recommended’. You do not go to jail if you don’t start vaccines until age 4.

July 22, 2009 at 2:43 pm
(165) AutismNewsBeat says:

Thirty two vaccines in infancy should ring as dangerous to anyone.

It doesn’t alarm immunologists. Why does it alarm you? The entire pediatric schedule contains about 150 antigens. How many antigens do you think a child is exposed to an a typical day?

Which diseases do you think it is unnecessary to vaccinate for?

July 22, 2009 at 4:00 pm
(166) barbaraj says:

I went to the schedule..35 vaccines by 12 months! example..dtap=3,mmr=3..others are singles prevnar , roto, etc. combined it looks like 35 to 42 vaccines..yes ADM I can’t think that this is a good thing..
You ask which ones I would avoid, I wouldn’t want to avoid any, I would think spacing WOULD be safer, not combining them may or may not be safer, admitting there are dangers ,identifying the children at highest risk for side effects, better quality control, and on.

July 22, 2009 at 4:04 pm
(167) AutismNewsBeat says:

What specifically concerns you about vaccines? The antigens? If so, how many antigens do you think a child is exposed to on a typical day, outside of vaccines?

July 22, 2009 at 4:31 pm
(168) Sandy says:

MMR = 3 all before the age of 1? care to share where you’re seeing that? From ages 12 months to 6 years, there is only 2 jabs of MMR, not three.
Generation Rescue’s big ole ad goes up to age 5.5 and they state 36 vaccines which include a bunch of flu and Hep A and pre natal to come up with 36….. now you’re going even beyond that to state 35 before age 12 months? Did you grandchildren get 35 vaccines prior to 12 months?
Where’s that link.

July 22, 2009 at 4:41 pm
(169) Sandy says:

Even if you count them all separetely, I don’t come up with 35 plus, not below age 12 months. One has to look for instance at the IPV, the range is 6 months to 18 months- only looking at those vaccines prior to age 12 months (when a child is no longer considered an infant which is what you said) you can not count those with ranges in months since in no way would or could you know if when majority had the IPV, Hib, PCV, MMR or Varicella.

July 22, 2009 at 4:47 pm
(170) autism says:

what I don’t fully understand is the “too much too soon” slogan. assuming that kids are truly receiving an overdose of whatever (mercury? aluminum? formaldehyde? antifreeze? dead viruses? antigens?), is there any good reason to think it would be less problemmatic if they received it over more time?

I mean, “common” sense suggests that you can cope with a little of anything at a time — but common sense and medical reality are often at odds! And if any of these items build up in the body over time, then why is it better to get 30 separate jabs over three years as opposed to, say, 15 jabs over one year?


July 22, 2009 at 8:10 pm
(171) AutismNewsBeat says:

“Too many too soon” is pure PR. It has nothing to do with the science. Kids are exposed to billions of wild bacteria and viruses in their first year of life – the handful of antigens introduced via vaccines barely register.

July 22, 2009 at 11:31 pm
(172) barbaraj says:

“too many too soon”
The smallest babies are affected the worst, with some estimates as high as one in five with autism, among those born the earliest. However, it doesn’t stand as their biggest problems which continue to be cp and other disabilities. Most medicines are dosed according to weight, if we see the youngest and the smallest being the most affected, logically( at least presumed) if we waited until they were a bit bigger they could handle the doseage better.Then offer a longer spacing, given the half life of many of the additives and preservatives, to flush some out of their systems before we add more. This all makes sense to me, however, a good point you make is the extra jabs, they “would” give them more exposures to the preservatives. Never in history were these dangerous diseases confronted by undeveloped immune systems, if it happened , it was rare, mothers passed on natural immunities lasting at least the first year. What is evident, in some of the studies, is bad science,the Japanese study as example, the children were given what the families asked for, single shots for measles,rubella, and mumps, not realizing that these would be given at the same visit (according to the Japanese charts),thus exposing their children to three times the preservatives/additives and while not in a combined shot effectively they were by being given at the same time. The autism rate soared. Go figure!

July 23, 2009 at 12:07 am
(173) barbaraj says:

Sandy the mmr is three vaccines, one jab but three vaccines. The dtap is three ,as well, in some cases four or five depending what is added, hib etc. I was counting vaccines not jabs.Sorry,I should have made that more clear.

July 23, 2009 at 12:23 am
(174) Sandy says:

I counted them as 3. Do you have a site to share where you counted from? The MMR doesn’t have to be given at 12 months, either and unless you can come up with a specific month-age of every child vaccinated with what, it seems alot of stuff, but doesn’t really offer valid proof of much.

Vaccines were created for children, based on avaerage weight. I am sure if there was a baby 3 times the average weight, one might question the dose of the vaccine however it’s more based on building the immunity and I’d stick my head out there to say a small amount of virus would do the trick.

As for the mothers immunity lasting in a child for a year, that would not explain the deaths of babies due to preventable diseases or RSV or Rotovirus and so on prior to the age of 1.

July 23, 2009 at 1:55 am
(175) barbaraj says:

If you want an rsv shot ,add it in, it’s not listed on the schedule.Normally it’s only offered to preemies.

July 23, 2009 at 8:51 am
(176) AutismNewsBeat says:

Most medicines are dosed according to weight, if we see the youngest and the smallest being the most affected, logically (at least presumed) if we waited until they were a bit bigger they could handle the dosage better.

Which dosage? The antigen load? Wild bacteria and viruses are not dosed based on a child’s weight. Or are you talking about the anti-freeze and ether that vaccines don’t contain? Or the formaldehyde – which our bodies make naturally every day. Or the aluminum salts which are quickly excreted?

Never in history were these dangerous diseases confronted by undeveloped immune systems.

So going back, say, 100 years, kids never died of meningitis, measles, varicella, HiB, pertussis, typhoid, rubella, etc? Or going back, say, to 2008, 200,000 people didn’t die of measles?

You’re deep into whale.to territory.

July 23, 2009 at 10:44 am
(177) Sandy says:

I don’t really get “Never in history were these dangerous diseases confronted by undeveloped immune systems.” It wouldn’t matter if the immune system was developed or not, these diseases don’t culculate body size. The reason so many children did die in history and to date is because their tiny little bodies didn’t have respiratory system the size of an adult to handle a big bad virus. Had little to due with the immune system other than if you contracted it, you were going to get sick. Look at the ages in a cemetary in South Dakota, many were under the age of 2, and that’s just in one location, one township. These dangerous disease certainly did confront under-developed immune systems- but at full force. If it didn’t, they never would had invented vaccines.
Today, if there was outbreaks as such even with modern medicine, children would die due to the lack of beds in hospitals.

July 23, 2009 at 12:46 pm
(178) Sandy says:

At least we now we’re looking at the same page. From birth to 12 months, only counting the ones that do not have an age range- (DTaP is the only 3 in 1 jab) I only count 22 so your statement of “I went to the schedule..35 vaccines by 12 months!” is incorrect and misleading the public. If you’re counting it some other way, you just let me know.

July 23, 2009 at 4:43 pm
(179) AutismNewsBeat says:

Look at the ages in a cemetery in South Dakota, many were under the age of 2, and that’s just in one location, one township.

Google “19th century post-mortem photography” for an idea of child mortality in our great-grandparents’ days.


July 23, 2009 at 9:47 pm
(180) barbaraj says:

I see a footnote (at least thriee hepb) at least? and the chart shows a possible 4

Hep b 3-4
roto 3
dtap 4 which is 12 vaccines
pneum. 4
polio 3
influenza 1 actually it’s 2 by 18 months
mmr 1 which is 3
varicella 1
HepA 1 2 doses between 12/23 months

rsv is given to babies born before 37 weeks..add 1

“too much too soon” “never before in our history”
..Children may have suffered these diseases however they didn’t get eight deadly diseases at two months of age and on one day, and likely shouldn’t be given so many vaccines at one time when weighing approx. 12 lbs. or so. We need to hold drug companies accountable to standards, when we hear of bacterial contamination at merck, whose facility had already been cited for violations, it should cause an outcry for safety, these are our children. Our country should not offer immunity under the law for sloppy “housekeeping” that could endanger our children’s lives. I just want safety, that shouldn’t be so hard in todays high tech society. We believed the HRT program, we are consumers, those “studies” were impressive, yet we know they were lies.

July 23, 2009 at 9:53 pm
(181) barbaraj says:

hep a should read 1 to 2 doses..

July 23, 2009 at 10:43 pm
(182) Sandy says:

Only going by Your stated “Infant”- infant is 12 months and under and you cannot count those vaccines that are recommended 12 to 15 mths; 12 to 18 mths since you have no idea when the general population had those vaccines:

Hep b 2
roto 3
dtap 3 which is 9 vaccines
pneum. 3
polio 2
influenza: not counted at all, only one state requires it
mmr: not considered an infant when given
varicella not considered an infant when given

HepA: not counted since most state don’t require it and even for those that do, it starts at 12 mths. The big scare over this vaccine was Katrina

rsv: not counted

The number equals 22.

You need to rephrase your statement and decide which age groups you’re claiming get’s 35 vaccines. Infants Do Not Get 35 vaccines. Either you didn’t understand the manner of your statement or it was to intentional spread false info and shock value.

These vaccines are not deadly viruses as it would be in one contracted whatever, they are only small amounts to build the immunity, which is why you need boosters. Vaccines are not giving deadly diseases, their giving immunity. There already IS a standard set and most of the population has no adverse effects of them. Contamination, I’m shocked the horrible Merck even made public that incident. No child was hurt but that, either so thank gosh they were doing their job and recalling instead of allowing jabs to acquire more expense through out that medical system to gain hand-washing money. What would be an outcry is if they kept it secret. Kids get multiple things all the time. Those infants in day care get sick all the time, one right after another and for some depending on other health issues, a common cold could end up in the hospital. My kid has never had any of those diseases contracted, however due to his mouthing every thing, he’s contracted everything else known to man including rotovirus and RSV along with common colds which one he had RSV, those colds were dangerous to him. Maybe you’d need to see a child suffer through either to understand that had there been a preventing vaccine, I could had saved my child that suffering. Maybe you’ve never seen a child with the Mumps or Measles? Polio? It might give you a better understanding.

July 24, 2009 at 1:05 am
(183) barbaraj says:

I stand by my count.
I have seen these diseases, all of them. I never suggested that children shouldn’t be vaccinated, I suggest that parents should lobby for “safer” vaccine programs and safer vaccines. That’s all!!
Myself, I’ve had measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough,polio,chicken pox,and a host of diseases that didn’t have names. My daughter, who was FULLY immunized caught whooping cough when she was four from my sister who had just returned from a trip to russia. I told the doc of the situation he put her on erythromycin before the onset and while it didn’t keep her from the illness it didn’t seem too bad, lasted forever though, months. My grandson is now currently suffering from lymes, no one offered him a lymes shot. He’s been on antibiotics for about a month now.My daughter had Kawasaki and cocksakie with viral meningitis. The flu continues to kill children each year, yet the shot has missed it’s mark more years than not, leaving the kids vulnerable to the strain of the season. While the roto shot is now being labeled with a Kawasaki warning, the measle shot in the 80′s was anecdotally connected to kawasaki as well.
How do you think we will look in history when it’s said there were one in sixty eight families affected by autism?
Why is there such resistance on the part of so many to approach this in a positive way, it doesn’t take a tremendous amount of effort to approach lawmakers and lobby for safety. Why pretend it’s all okay when the information is out there that puts many of these vaccinations on the suspect list.

July 24, 2009 at 1:33 am
(184) Sandy says:

You never know, contracting a childhood disease could leave little glitches that are passed onto the next generations genes, and that’s where autism comes from. If any thing it may attribute to inherited immune disorder’s. They should do a study of those who actually suffered from many childhood disorder’s and survived.

A safer vaccine is just saying no. Get a waiver. Homeschool and never have to worry about vaccine records. Safer starts with every one knowing their own choices and not blaming others for the choices they made.

Everyone brings up the flu vaccine, and everyone should by now be well aware viruses are tricky. Wouldn’t it be nice to detect which strain will be breathed onto others each year? Hard to guess when there’s so many strains. Maybe they should just give 20 vaccines in 1 to accomodate all the different germs other’s spread?

How can this be approached in a positive manner when you make one statement, then include ages 23 months? That is not an infant. You have an issue with vaccines, yet it’s unclear just what that issue is exactly. It seems to change as this thread get’s long yet you and I and every one is no closer to that autism answer and this tends to be less productive. You want or need to find fault in vaccines, maybe one day you will.

I suppose we’ll have to wait and see when we look back in history at 1:68, but that rate isn’t current as of yet. Another number for shock value? care to share where that number came from when all other reputable autism organizations do not match?

I understand you have an issue with vaccines, but you are not adding to it positively.

July 24, 2009 at 2:47 am
(185) barbaaj says:

I have read over and over that there is one in one hundred fifty children with autism with the numbers “worse” for boys alone,(even though lancet has it now at one percent of all children) and that this is not one in one hundred and fifty families, because often a family has more than one child with autism, the numbers I have read are one in sixty-eight families. I have not distorted the vaccine count, nor the family count. I am not looking to shock. In fact I would like the numbers to indicate how many cases of autism are in vaccinated vs unvaccinated children.

My generation had the diseases as did many generations before us, and we had our health. I never, for example, have had an ear infection in my life, and had strep throat only once, in college. I have had only one flu vaccine, one I was bullied into in the 70′s for the swine flu, only because I was working and was fearful of bringing it home to my children. The tv ads were clear, get the shot or you and your kids will die. As it turned out people became paraplegics,large numbers developed guillain barre, and some died. I am ,I admit, scared to death of what the new h1n1 vaccines will bring to us this fall. I pray that we can safely protect our children one day from all of these illnesses. These diseases are more dangerous than when I was a kid, at least that is what we are told.

July 24, 2009 at 9:02 am
(186) Sandy says:

So, we’re only looking at the male population for those rates? Or because families have more than one diagnosed? That sounds more genetic for starters, but rates are not based like that and the national rate is not as you stated. You have both distorted numbers. If any one was to lok at either, any parent would say OMG 35 vaccines for an infant? That count is false and most time stated around the web as shock value. You either count the whole childhood vaccines (not including flu and Hep A) and say “this is the number of the ‘whole’ childhood vaccination schedule”. Eliminate the use of infant and you’d be more honest.

You cant include the possible H1N1 when the topic is childhood vaccines. That flu is a totally different topic, and so is the 1970′s flu shot. Aside from that fact, 40 million in 1976 had that vaccine, and 500 cases resulted in GBS. 25 died of pulmonary complications.
Everyone keeps talking about the 1918 pandemic and they talked about it too in 1976 (yes, I remember) it’s the same strain and everyone is fearful since without a vaccine, in 1918, 100 million died world-wide. 500….. 100 million…. at least with GBS you lived and back then most didn’t remain paraplegics.

Almost everyone says “I was bullied” and I don’t quite understand how some one allows another to make those medical choices for them. Regardless of those ads you had a choice and if parents and people in general make choices based on being bullied, we’re in big trouble.

July 24, 2009 at 11:18 am
(187) barbaraj says:

The word infant usually describes a child before they are able to walk, it’s not narrowly defined at 12 months. It can be 13, 14 ,18 months. I don’t understand , if you choose to take away vaccines from that schedule that you are being more honest. Truth is, no child gets one flu shot, not here, they get two ,unless they’ve been vaccinated the year before. So you may add one to my list. You are saying that the dtap and the mmr that are given starting at 12 months shouldn’t be added in, WHY? Why should the real numbers scare anyone that believes so solidly that it’s a safe program? People believe the hep b shot is so important because the mom may be infected, there are tests for that, and that shot wouldn’t help much without the addition of gamma globulin hep at birth. Don’t forget when we are given that figure, 1-150 it includes unvaccinated children , no one has given us a number that includes “only” vaccinated children. Now that may be scary!
Among the parents I know with autistic children, all say they have been offered waivers by their pediatricians for future vaccines, some take it, some don’t. WHY would these same professionals that claim there are no connections between vaccines and autism make this offer? Two mothers have told me the offer stood for siblings ,as well. I think they are following their heart and devotion to “first do no harm” in situations that have too many unknowns for them to make the call. I have to agree with you, autism and measles, autism and chickenpox would be very sad scenarios, and the reason I’m guessing that some say yes to shots after autism.

July 24, 2009 at 12:15 pm
(188) Sandy says:

Look it up. Infant ends at 12 months, and if we go by it based on when a child walks, then it ends at 9 months. You can not add the flu vaccine since you have no clue of what children ever get that, for instance mine had his first at 8 years old. people only include that vaccine to add to a huge count. You also can not count the MMR (12 to 18 mths) or DTaP (15 to 18 mths) since you have no clue when children would get that, most get the MMR at 15 months generally speaking. Some at 18 months, and some not at all. The real numbers don’t scare me, only if I believe how you presented it using infant. If you want to be more effective, try being honest and just go and count the full childhood vaccines within the schedule and not include words like ‘infant’. Childhood vaccines actually go up to 12 years old.
No one has given a rate number 1:150 vaccinated or otherwise. That figure is the general population of those with autism (only children are in that count by the way and adults are forgotten) and since it comes from the educational system, there is no clue who had vaccines or not or when they had any vaccine.
Why would doctors tell a parent about the waivers? Doesn’t have to mean they believe or disbelieve in vaccines. It could mean they are offering their patients ‘choices’, that of which parents should be informed about anyway. Offering it to siblings more point towards genetics within families, not towards the vaccine itself.

July 24, 2009 at 1:35 pm
(189) barbaraj says:


consider that four dtap jabs equal 12 vaccines, that the mmr is three..and count the rest on the schedule..how do YOU get only 22? and the hep A that you suggest isn’t “really” on the schedule is adjusted for children who live in areas as you suggest, if that is the “case” that series can start “earlier”/and that rsv IS added to all children’s schedules if they were born before 37 weeks..don’t quibble over why some choose to get the mmr at 12 months instead of 15, it hardly makes a difference

and..I’m not certain why you are quibbling over the use of the word “infant”.

I stand as pro vaccine safety! I don’t understand why anyone would want different?

July 24, 2009 at 1:43 pm
(190) autism says:

wow… you guys are amazing — 186 comments and going. you should really consider IM or phone!

anyway, re “too much too soon,” I thought that the reasoning behind much of the vaccine/autism theory relates to a build-up of mercury (or other toxins) that for some reason are not excreted by particular kiddos.

If that’s your thinking too, then waiting for the body to “clear” toxins doesn’t make sense.

That is, if kids who become autistic can’t “clear” heavy metals, why does it matter whether they receive the vaccines every month, six months, nine months, etc.? the build-up would be the same.


July 24, 2009 at 2:06 pm
(191) barbaraj says:

We don’t know , and that’s the problem. Could children on a different schedule, perhaps allowed the time to build the antibodies to one antigen, and allowed time to excrete the toxins, and by toxins I am agreeing that yes mercury, aluminum, etc. are considered toxins, however, there are toxins in vaccines ,as well, related to the target diseases. Here is a very moderate article on the subject..


July 24, 2009 at 2:10 pm
(192) barbaraj says:

I chopped off the end of one sentence..could children….on this schedule not lose their ability to excete metals or other toxins…is the inability to rid the body of toxins genetic or caused by the vaccines themselves?

July 24, 2009 at 3:48 pm
(193) Sandy says:

The problem is, most of the general population kids can do and do just fine on the current schedule. Because we “dont know’, it would be putting many kids at higher risk to change something for no reason or evidence.

That article was interesting. The reason why young children are at risk is most of these disease effect the respiratory system and a child’s is way to immature. Also this Doc didn’t quite understand Hanah Poling- “minority—to develop problems from multiple vaccinations given at the wrong time in the wrong clinical setting.” Any can read her case- she had been Behind on vaccines due to being Sick alot so in reality, she never had the schedule to begin with. All those vaccines she had in one days was her doctors choice to do them all as catch-up. As that doctor came at that child with that many vaccines in one day, those parents didn’t run out the door. Second, I’d bet any child with that many catch-vaccines in a day would have side effects.

July 24, 2009 at 3:55 pm
(194) barbaraj says:

Time will tell, imo it’s going to be a sad day in history when we admit to damaging this generation of children. Yep, I guess I’m carrying a pitchfork , I want safer for my kids. For now I want everyone to go get their shots, so my grandkids don’t have to.There is no reason to suspect them, they’ve been cleared ,afterall, by our fda! One funny story, about safety, my pediatrician was going to give one of the kids a shot, I said, I heard that in a month there will be a safer shot, she said, “really”, she called a doc, at ” nih” he said, yes, and if she wants it she can have it. He had already given it to his own grandson! My grandson did get that shot, probably the first infant in Maryland not “connected” to receive it. This bothers me, they KNEW the other shot was less than safe, yet continued to use it until there was a replacement, in the same way we thought thimerosal was removed yet the vials were used until the expiration date two years later. Thanks for all of the discussion, especially to Sandy for standing up for her beliefs, as well as ADM,and of course Lisa for allowing the rant!

July 24, 2009 at 4:39 pm
(195) Sandy says:

There may come a day in history that we all may face the truth to what really causes autism, for all kids and it just might not be vaccines. While you stick to your vaccine theory(s) my son’s autism not caused by maybe vaccines still may want an answer when he grows up. My kid had autism at birth (no Hep B vaccine either, no massive fillings, I didn’t have a one, no pre natal flu vaccine, no complications) and had all his vaccines. They neither made is autism worse or better or anything in between.

The expiration dates of those vaccines were never a secret, neither was that trace amount still in vaccines. Continuing to use those vaccines have yet proved no harm. No one really knows with the removal of Thimerosal, if it would make a difference or not and obviously not, since after that expiration date came and gone, autism rates are still a-climbing leading one to wonder again, why change anything or suggest it until that specific culprit is identified?!

July 25, 2009 at 12:57 am
(196) AutismNewsBeat says:

Second, I’d bet any child with that many catch-vaccines in a day would have side effects.

What is the difference between nine vaccines in one visit, and a kid who scrapes his knee and runs around on a non-hygenic playground?

Answer: The kid with the scraped knee is exposed to at least 500 times more antigens than the kid in the doctor’s office.

May 13, 2011 at 4:22 pm
(197) dreamland says:

Lisa Jo….Thank you, thank you for writing this piece. Yes, it is possible to be a vaccine moderate. I am one. Why? Because I was once severely sickened by a disease for which there is now a vaccine AND my Autistic son had atrocious reactions to his shots. So there is nuance to the entire subject for me that many people don’t get. There is no way I could in good conscience ever be anti-vaccine for all people but… I think like any other issue this one is multi-factoral and, like you suggest, the answer probably lies somewhere in the between: some Autistic kids have been damaged by vaccines, maybe those with the Regressive form, and some have not. The question is why? Is it just the vaccines or could it be how they are given? Babies continually have ear infections and are on anti-biotics. Going over my son’s medical records I see he was on anti-biotics during most of his shots. Isn’t a large percentage of the immune system in the gut? Don’t antibiotics kill off the good bacteria so essential to immune response? What if these same children had been vaccinated when they were not sick and on antibiotics? Might they have had better reactions to the shots then? I have far more questions than answers but boy do I have a lot of questions. I don’t blame vaccine companies so much as I blame doctors for vaccinating sick kids on antibiotics. That really seems like a no-brainer to me but here we are.

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