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Dr. Oz on Autism

By February 15, 2011

On Thursday February 17,  Dr. Oz will be dedicating his popular daytime TV show to the topic of autism.

To create the program, parents were invited to a "Town Hall" event: "...for parents of children 0-12 months that are worried their children may be diagnosed with autism, as well as parents of children with autism."  The blurb describing the show says "The diagnosis parents fear most.  Tune in."

I received a press release yesterday listing all of the program's planned guests - an eclectic mix which should provide some significant fireworks and debate.  Here's the release:

Every 15 minutes, a family hears a diagnosis they fear the most. Today for the first time in the show's history, Dr. Oz is holding a town hall style discussion on the disorder that affects 1 in 110 U.S. kids: Autism. Panelists Alison Singer, President of The Autism Science Foundation, Dr. Bob Sears, pediatrician and author of  The Autism Book & The Vaccine Book, Dr. Irva Hertz Picchiotto, environmental epidemiologist at the Mind Institute at U.C. Davis, Dr. Ari Brown, pediatrician, AAP spokesperson and author of Expecting 411 and pediatricians Dr. Moshe Lazar,Pediatric Associates of Brooklyn LLP, Dr. Walter Molofsky, director of Pediatric Neurology, Beth Israel Medical Center and St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center, Dr.Lori Zbar, Mount Sinai Pediatrics, Dr. Michael E. Gabriel, Gabriel Pediatrics and PATH Family Center, Dr. Andrew Adesman, Chief of Developmental & Behavioral Pediatrics at Schneider Children's Hospital, Dr. George Lazarus, New York-Presbyterian hospital and Lenox Hill Hospital join the conversation about autism including the risks, importance of early detection and intervention. Parents Andrea (Bellmore, NY), Charles (Rosedale, NY),Kirsten (New York, NY), Janine (West New York, NJ), Tehya (New York, NY), Nancy (New York, NY), Arnand (Scarsdale, NY), Jennifer (New York, NY), Melissa (Floral Park, NY), Nicole (Yonkers, NY), Sharon (Rosedale, NY), Katherine (Greenwich, CT) and Jill (Totowa, NJ) ask questions, raise their concerns and share their fears and stories of autism.

What is Dr. Oz's perspective on autism?  It's a little unclear, especially since the Dr. Oz website, while it's loaded with questions and answers about autism, features answers NOT from Dr. Oz (as advertised) but from the Cleveland Clinic.  If we go by the Cleveland Clinic's responses to questions about autism, the perspective is very mainstream.  For example, their answer to a question about preventing autism in utero is simply: "Stay healthy, eat right, and follow your doctor's orders. There are no specific steps you can take other than those mentioned. Just try to be as healthy as you can."

And here's the "Ask Dr. Oz" response to the a question about vaccines causing autism (again provided by the Cleveland Clinic):

The available scientific evidence indicates that vaccines don't cause autism. The recent finding about a girl who experienced a negative reaction to a vaccine with autism symptoms resulting was due to a preexisting metabolic disorder that was made worse by the vaccine. This is very different than what most people mean when they are asking whether vaccines cause autism. If vaccines do play a role, it is in making symptoms worse or more noticeable as would any immune challenge. The data on this will continue to be collected, but given the strong genetic basis of autism, it can be said that it is unlikely that any environmental event, including vaccinations, plays a big role in the majority of cases of autism.

All this seems very straightforward - until you listen to Dr. Oz himself on autism in this recent talk about vaccines on The View.   On the one hand, Oz tells parents to follow the vaccine schedule that's recommended - but on the other hand he seems perfectly comfortable with the idea that parents might "spread vaccines out" if they have concerns about autism.  He says on the one hand that vaccines are safe and beneficial, but on the other hand seems to be saying that at least some children who "were going to get autism anyway," or who are vaccinated while suffering from the flu, or who have a sibling with autism, might indeed develop autism as a result of vaccines.

If you're a Dr. Oz fan (or foe) you probably know much more than I do about what to expect from Thursday's show.   Share your thoughts, concerns and insights!


Comments
February 15, 2011 at 9:58 am
(1) abew says:

Dr. Oz is married to a “Reiki Master” who believes in “palm healing” and other, um, rather nontraditional forms of medicine. Oz has confessed that his wife decided their children’s vaccine schedule. It would apparently be tough for him to promote the normal vaccine schedule unless he’s willing to sleep on the couch.

February 15, 2011 at 10:59 am
(2) Sandy says:

It’s not just his wife. Dr. Mehmet Oz was one of the first physicians to include a Reiki practitioner in his department at The Columbia Presbyterian Medical Centre in New York City. Dr. Oz has allowed the use of Reiki during open heart surgeries and heart transplant operations. He also said “Reiki has become a sought-after healing art among patients and mainstream medical professionals.”

Not sure if he’ll base his opinion of the topic of autism Reiki, but his guest list is interesting.

February 15, 2011 at 1:17 pm
(3) barbaraj says:

The show is sponsored by “walgreens”..if it were aired live, there may be a chance of honesty, however, as with many of similar programs , in recent years, the editing leaves a shell by the time it slices and dices out the truth. I probably will not watch, and otherwise I watch him every day. Like many who have attached themselves to the lies of pharm his network will do no different If I see our “OZ” go down this path, I will be too disappointed and will do the same as I did with Lauer and others, never turn them back on in my house. Today most of us are “savvy” enough to recognize sponsored propaganda (exception my fox hubby) and do learn to avoid it.

February 15, 2011 at 2:10 pm
(4) AutismNewsBeat says:

The show was taped last week. One of the experts on the show says the audience had a strong anti-vaccine bent – “Like the New York chapter of Age of Autism.”

One of Dr. Bob Sears’s patients was the unvaccinated boy who brought measles back to San Diego a few years ago. I doubt that will be brought up – not entertaining enough.

February 15, 2011 at 2:25 pm
(5) Sandy says:

Dr. Bob Sears’s is also the one who diagnosed McCarthy’s child within a 20 minute office visit. I doubt that will be brought up, either.

February 15, 2011 at 3:34 pm
(6) tony bateson says:

The missing question in all this stuff about vaccine fears is ‘what is the prevalence of autism in unvaccinated people?’

Why does no-one know when they know all about unvaccinated patients contracting measles? Why don’t they want to know? When will they know? Why is this question so alarming to medics and the pharma industry.
Why, when I asked 250 medics and researchers this question in a perfectly reasoned and short letter, I only had two replies? Doesn’t this commonality of response tell us volumes?

Please ask everyone who should know, ‘what is the prevalence of autism in unvaccinated people?’

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.

February 17, 2011 at 9:29 am
(7) Gail says:

Amish children so not get vaccinated. Autism is very rare amongst the amish.

February 15, 2011 at 7:53 pm
(8) Amanda Broadfoot says:

Why is autism “the diagnosis parents fear most?!”

My son is autistic, and I can assure you, my friends who have lost their child to cancer would MUCH rather have received an ASD diagnosis than the one they received for their baby.

We have our challenges, sure, but I find it offensive when I hear my son’s challenges described as the WORST thing that could happen to a child. PLEASE. It could be a *lot* worse.

February 15, 2011 at 11:41 pm
(9) Diane MacLean says:

I too have 2 daughters on the spectrum and am also offended when Dr.s and the like, use that phrasology
“devastating”, “horrible”, “worst imaginable” COME ON! While Autism is challenging, there are many other DX’s that are far worse.. Its all a matter of perspective.

February 16, 2011 at 12:59 am
(10) Joan says:

I agree, autism is not a death sentence! A severe health problem, or terminal disease is much more horrifying than a diagnosis of autism, especially now that there is so much therapy and treatments available.

February 16, 2011 at 11:02 am
(11) Kristina Peters says:

Yes cancer would be the worst. My son has a severe form of autism resulting in no speech. My second was diagnost very young his has turned to a mild form of possibly asphergers. I do not and did not vaccinate my kids. They have been tested for fragile ‘X’ as well as if they would benefit from a casien and gluton free diet all coming back negative. I strongly believe that once the gene pool has been tampered with the generational results are what we are looking at today.

February 21, 2011 at 9:58 am
(12) Barbara says:

Your gene pool was tampered with? How so?

February 16, 2011 at 9:53 pm
(13) RETT says:

I have a daughter 19 who has Rett Syndrome which falls under the Autism Spectrum. Non-verbal, seizures (somewhat controlled with meds) behavior issues/aggressive . Functions at about three years of age. It has been one hell of a ride. With her diagnoses, her/our future changes day to day .. and I am not being disrespectful when I say this, but there were days I thought that if she had cancer, at least I would know where we were headed and what I had to do. My aim in life now is to stay healthy to care for her and if that is not in the plans that she goes before me. There is nothing out there for her/nothing in place from where I come from for Children like her. She has two more years at school then that is it. Not enough people out there for respite care or programs for low functioning children. We are pretty much doing it all alone. And our Journey has been devastating. God Bless everyone and your Journey be one of Hope for the children.

February 22, 2011 at 2:52 pm
(14) Debi says:

Anything that effects our children in a negative way is devastating period.My son who has severe autism is now 15years old and I too have pretty much done it all on my own.It was easy enough to get staffing when he was young but now at 15 forget it.We have had inconsistent services maybe 5 years total since he was diagnosed at two and a half years old.Now all of the sudden they say I live to far away for anyone to come to my home ridiculous.I have been hear 21 years but had no problems getting staff to come when he was a young little cutie.He is still a cute and handsome young man.But I have the hours but no staff.This is a system issue and a funding issue.I will never lose hope and will continue to love and provide for him as best I can.But it seems that all the professionals have to say now is maybe you should consider a group home even though I want to keep him home with me and feel I if I could get the services. Not to mention because of the economy the group homes are shutting down and children and adults are being returned home,they call it reunification,I call it bullcrap its all about money on everyones part including lack of staff due to the fact that they are paid poorly lack of benefits ect.Also the huge increase in autism. When I was a young adult the numbers were 4 out of 10,000 people with autism and now its something like 1 out of 150.There has to be some kind of common denominator for this increase,but we will probably never know why our children and familes are dealing with autism on such a grand scale,because thats probably about money too.

February 17, 2011 at 11:44 am
(15) Dee says:

I think the wording here is very important… It’s not “the worst diagnosis” but the one that parents *fear* the most. And I think there is a case for this statement. Until you enter the ASD world I think that many parents imagine a child totally cut off from the world, unable to talk or love, possibly dangerous to themselves and others… Basically the self is gone. Again, I mean this as the preconception. It’s either that or rain man. And yet, we all hear that the incidence is rising and no one can even agree on this or why… It’s like SIDS was in the early nineties… It’s that fear… More and more people know someone, it’s happening all over and there is no solid, clear explanation other than controversy. So yes, I do believe it is the diagnosis that parents fear the most. I know I did. Now that Im here in the ASD world, I agree, things could be worse!

February 18, 2011 at 1:55 pm
(16) Springingtiger says:

I agree. I am fifty-seven and enjoy life. I am married, employed and a parent. I contribute to society, however reluctant I may be to associate in it. Personally I feel the most offensive and hurtful people to those of us on the spectrum are parents in denial, the parents who treat us as aberrations whose feelings and opinions don’t count.

Just because I am different does not mean I am any less human, in fact I think my humanity is considerably more manifest than the parents who speak for certain organizations like AOA and viciously attack anyone who disagrees with them.

February 21, 2011 at 9:54 am
(17) Linda says:

I totally agree Amanda. I see many children out and think to myself how much worse life could be. Autism is tough, but my son is a really wonderful blessing. He taught me to be a better person.

February 21, 2011 at 1:19 pm
(18) Carmen says:

I agree. My 13 year-old daughter, who has Autism, is the best thing that has ever happened to me. She is a lifesaver. I coudn’t imagin having a child diagnosed with a terminal illness.

February 24, 2011 at 12:35 pm
(19) liz says:

Amen sister!! My son is five and he is a blessing! And honestly im so used to our challenges that i have no idea what i would do with another diagnosis.

February 15, 2011 at 10:16 pm
(20) AutismNewsBeat says:

Why, when I asked 250 medics and researchers this question in a perfectly reasoned and short letter, I only had two replies?

Because they don’t take you seriously? If I asked 250 NASA scientists if the moon was feta or colby, I’d be lucky to get two responses.

February 16, 2011 at 1:12 am
(21) zusia says:

Funny, ANB. I’m pretty sure the moon is Blue Cheese. Make that Bleu Cheese.

Tony– studies have been done but you’ll have to google them for yourself as I’m bound for bed. You’ll have to go back a number of years. I remember one in particular in the UK where vaccination rates dropped due to the Wakefield influence and the parents who chose not to vaccinate unintentionally became part of the stats that demonstrated that the rate of autism among unvaccinated children was the same as among vaccinated children.

There were other studies as well but they won’t show up recently on a google feed as they’re very old news.

As far as Dr. Oz, he’s an entertainer. I’m sure he offers some very sound advice as does anyone who sticks to conventional wisdom. But when it comes to autism, he needs to follow the yellow brick road.

Cheers!

February 16, 2011 at 10:36 am
(22) Alice says:

Study after study has shown no difference in autism rates in vaccinated or unvaccinated children. But people who are anti-vaccine then either ignore the studies or say the Big Pharma is somehow controlling scientific research.

The causes of autism seem to be a very complicated interaction of genetics and environment. As a parent of two children with autism, I wish the anti-vaccine frenzy would calm down.

I love Dr. Oz, but he sometimes gets behind some kind of flaky stuff. His advice on diet and exercise is wonderful, though.

February 16, 2011 at 11:45 am
(23) barbaraj says:

I have never seen such a study showing no differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated children ,in fact I’ve never seen such a study of vaccinated vs unvaccinated at all.
Kristina has a point, “we’ve tampored with the gene pool”, I believe, by allowing in the dna of exotic animals, complete with their virus load as well as many toxins capable of mutating our dna structures through vaccination programs we have YES tampored with the gene pool. It’s a bit late to measure vaccinated vs unvaccinated, there are no “virgin” specimens, unless of course we stop dismissing the religious groups that never vaccinated. We are discussing autism and the noise is a great cover for the other less covered issues surrounding vaccines, the autoimmune disease epidemic, the strange increase of leukemia since polio vaccine, increases in MS, the rise of heart conditions in children and more. We are making them ill, with autism just one of the many horrific diseases we have created . Please, let’s do discuss the “measle” case, why fear it in the “herd”..because the herd concept could be a lie?!

February 16, 2011 at 12:25 pm
(24) Lisa says:

folks – you are not “tampering with the gene pool” by vaccinating your children.

remember there is dna from other species in everything you eat. if you get a bee sting, your body is encountering bee dna. if you get a scratch from a thorn, your body is encountering plant dna.

simply encountering dna from other species does not change your dna, no matter what the X Files may say.

vaccines have nothing to do with the gene pool.

the “herd concept” is not a lie. it is, however, in danger of disappearing for lack of vaccinations, which may have the impact of sickening children who have not been vaccinated.

Lisa

February 16, 2011 at 2:05 pm
(25) Sandy says:

Actually, there’s been an increase of all child cancers along with many other things, however the survival rate over the years has increased greatly. Each of the distinctive types of childhood cancers develops differently, with a potentially wide variety of causes and a unique clinical course in terms of age, race, gender, and many other factors but there’s some evidence leukemia is linked to pesticides, not vaccines. One study found threefold increase in risk for children whose mothers were exposed to pesticides at work. Also, exposure to x-rays while pregnant and parent exposures to solvents, paints, electric and magnetic fields, and employment in motor vehicle-related occupations.

I’m not sure what exact point Kristina was trying to make, other than her children are on the spectrum and they were never vaccinated. The current theory is vaccines cause autism at the time of injection; not vaccines over generations.

February 16, 2011 at 2:24 pm
(26) zusia says:

Kristina is spot on and yes, vaccinations do figure into the tampering of the gene pool, but not in the way some of you are envisioning. I’ve been talking about this for 17 years, and the more I read, the more I know I’m right.

The culprit is medical intervention of any kind, which includes everything from the development of antibiotics to treatments for various disorders to yes, vaccinations.

You see, Mother Nature intended that the gene pool would take care of its own direction, over generations, by itself. When we humans started engaging in medical intervention, we began tampering with the intentions of Mother Nature. This applies to animals and to us, since we’re basically mammals in clothing.

For thousands, millions of years, the weak (as perceived by Mother Nature) would die. The body, whether it’s a fetus or an adult, tries to repair faulty or damaged DNA and when it can’t, most of the time the result is early death.

Fast forward to about 100 years ago, for the sake of brevity…..

February 16, 2011 at 2:31 pm
(27) zusia says:

One hundred years ago, women with auto-immune diseases like thyroid disorders and diabetes would die before they could reproduce. Women with high blood pressure would also die. Women with PCOC and other fertility issues would remain childless. Etc. Men with infertility issues would remain childless. Parents who carried “defective” genes would birth children who died in utero or shortly after birth. Babies who were born unable to nurse would die. Babies who suffered contagious illnesses would die. Babies born prematurely would die. Those who survived due to medical intervention were more susceptible– Mother Nature doesn’t forget. She will continue to try to take them out. Before medical intervention the mortality rate for children and adults was staggering.

Now, over the last several generations, we began saving lives and correcting, with medication, the various conditions that contributed to infertility, like thyroid conditions, diabetes, etc. Even mental illness– before medication, people with certain mental illnesses were less likely to produce. Now, the playing field is leveled.

Continued…

February 16, 2011 at 2:34 pm
(28) Lisa says:

Well, Zusia, I suppose you’re right that – at least in the developed world – “survival of the fittest” has been set aside as a result of medical technology.

If we were living without medicines of any kind, or knowledge of techniques for midwifery, hygiene, etc., many more of us would die at or before birth, or certainly during the early years of childhood.

If we were living before the advent of antibiotics, many more of us would die of infectious diseases before the age of reproduction.

And, of course, if we were (as many are) living without vaccines, many more of us would succumb to diseases like diphtheria, measles, polio, and all the rest.

Does that mean that the human race is becoming weaker? Possibly. It’s an interesting argument – but I’m not sure how it relates to the causes of autism.

Lisa

February 16, 2011 at 2:36 pm
(29) zusia says:

Now let’s talk about the effects of medical intervention and neonatal care on infant outcomes. A hundred years ago, most premature and postmature babies died. The stillbirth rate in the early 60′s was very high. Medical intervention is what has caused a steady decrease. What Mother Nature intended has been set aside in favor of saving all lives.

Please do not think that I’d want it any other way. I’m alive today, as are both of my sons, due to medical intervention. Mother Nature tried to take me out during my pregnancy with the older one, and if I had indeed died, the younger, with autism, wouldn’t have been born. He was postmature with a cord wrapped around his neck– Mother Nature’s way of saying “This kid ain’t right.” I’m glad we were all saved but I do acknowledge the reality of tampering with nature.

February 16, 2011 at 2:43 pm
(30) zusia says:

It’s not “s urvival of the fittest” as much as “ability to adapt.” That’s what Darwin expressed. Again, when Mother Nature perceives that she has created (for lack of a better way of saying it) a faulty system, she tries to repair it, then shuts it down.

You really can’t see how this relates to autism? People with autism have not only “faulty” (again, Mother Nature’s interpretation, not mine) brain wiring, they tend to come with other “faulty systems” like digestive, allergies, etc. If they were slated to “self-destruct” in utero, or during birth, or in the first years of life due to “failure to thrive”, contagious disease, etc., they wouldn’t be here today.

Some years ago I did an informal survey of women with autistic children and determined that a full 75% of those children wouldn’t be here today if it weren’t for medical intervention prior to pregnancy, during pregnancy and/or labor, or in the first year of life.

The most common interventions that I found were auto-immune diseases of the mother, PCOS and fertility issues, hypertension, pregnancy difficulties such as early labor (Mother Nature trying to expel the fetus), inability to nurse and other feeding issues, severe allergies and asthma, which untreated would lead to death, etc.

February 16, 2011 at 2:58 pm
(31) Lisa says:

Zusia – that’s an interesting informal study, but I’m not aware of any formal studies suggesting that a large number of children with autism suffer from life-threatening issues (or would have died prior to or just after birth without significant medical intervention).

From what I know, while certain issues such as premature birth, etc., do increase the risk of autism, autism does not increase the risk of premature death. On the other hand, it could potentially decrease the likelihood of reproducing… as it does today.

Lisa

February 16, 2011 at 3:20 pm
(32) zusia says:

You can look up individual statistics for conditions that, without treatment, used to result in death. Look at all the autistic children with feeding issues, inability to nurse, failure to thrive– without medical intervention. These children used to die. Or asthma, which is on the rise. Asthma used to kill, mothers and children, whether they were autistic or not. Fathers, too. Now they’re saved and they reproduce. It’s not that Mother Nature tries, or is able, to completely stop a genetic line. Sometimes it takes generations to dwindle down to inability to reproduce.

Remember. When Mother Nature starts trying to repair defective DNA that results in disease or genetic disorder, including autism, she doesn’t know she’s creating that disease or disorder. She only knows that “this combination of genes isn’t working.”

This is why, in my opinion, you do see a certain increase in not only autism but many, many diseases and disorders.

The stillbirth rate alone has decreased dramatically from the early 60′s. Known genetic disorders make up at least 25% of those deaths. That’s known genetic disorders. Today we’re able to identify more and more genetic disorders so that number will only increase.

February 16, 2011 at 3:22 pm
(33) Sandy says:

So what are you suggesting, Zusia, with medical interventions and discoveries we not only expanding the human life span and prevented for sure deaths but it also changed the gene pool? And those same people should had died, Mother nature’s way? Could that not just happen on it’s own? Like how apes went to a standing postition without any medical advancements at all?
Darwins theory of evolution is just that, a theory.

February 16, 2011 at 3:25 pm
(34) Lisa says:

Well, I think there’s a lot to what you have to say, and it’s certainly an interesting perspective on modern medicine.

On a side note, your anthropomorphism of mother nature is intriguing! As a general reader, I find that I LIKE the idea that nature “knows” this or that – but as a science museum writer (one of my many hats) I can’t help but feel it’s a bit misleading…

Anyway, that’s just a side note, for another day!

Lisa

February 16, 2011 at 3:26 pm
(35) Rigley says:

I’ve been talking about this for 17 years, and the more I read, the more I know I’m right.

It’s called confirmation bias.

February 16, 2011 at 3:29 pm
(36) Lisa says:

I don’t think there’s any question that Zusia’s right. By intervening medically to make it possible for people with genetic anomalies to reproduce when they would have died in childhood without medical intervention, we are changing the long term genetics of our race.

There’s no moral judgment related to this fact – it’s just a fact.

Lisa

February 18, 2011 at 2:04 pm
(37) Springingtiger says:

Lisa, have you considered that perhaps it’s time human genetics changed? Given the technological progress of the world perhaps we need a new form of human and the NT human is becoming obsolete. It may well be that the future is better suited to people with ASDs.

February 16, 2011 at 4:05 pm
(38) zusia says:

You don’t have to believe me, you can do your own independent research. What I’m saying isn’t extraordinary at all. It’s so simple, everyone misses the obvious.

Some years ago people were pointing out that there was no reported autism in third world countries that lacked a vaccination program. They were probably right– countries that lacked a vaccination program also lacked basic medical care. Countries that provided medical care (and medical intervention) at all levels also will have higher rates of autism.

With prematurity, again, a new lung surfactant developed in the late 1980′s increased the survival rate of premature infants by a huge percentage. Without it, they– including my own son– would have died. People like to point to the late 80′s, early 90′s as the time when the vaccination schedule increased, but it was also the time that neonatal care, among other health interventions, saved more and more babies.

You can look up story after story of women trying to link the use of labor inducing drugs like pitocin to autism. What they fail to realize is that if the drug had not been used, their babies would have most likely become stillbirth statistics, because there was something “wrong” about them that didn’t signal the uterus to begin contractions. The babies would have died. A very high number of babies with autism were premature or postmature. They wouldn’t be here today to be statistics if it weren’t for medical intervention.

February 16, 2011 at 4:07 pm
(39) zusia says:

Yes, exactly, Lisa. There is no moral judgment. And, the effects are very longitudinal. They may have taken generations to get to this point, and it will take more generations to see the full effects, or for “genetic lines” to die out, no pun intended. Yes, eventually I think Mother Nature will win out, it’ll just take longer.

February 16, 2011 at 4:14 pm
(40) zusia says:

I always smile when I hear people say autism isn’t genetic or hereditary because there is no example of it in their family. Nobody knows what affected the babies who died in previous generations. The miscarriages, the stillbirths, the failure to thrive cases.

February 16, 2011 at 4:24 pm
(41) passionlessDrone says:

Hello friends –

Zusia is correct; our medical, sanitation, and food creation capacities have had rather under appreciated effects on which genes get to propogate and which ones don’t.

To what degree we can say this has resulted in increases in autism, I can’t say; though I think the 75% figure is likely high, I also think that the number is greater than zero.

She’s also right in that it isn’t about morality; the hand of nature is not mitigated by human constructs.

- pD

February 16, 2011 at 8:19 pm
(42) barbaraj says:

It really isn’t sci fi Lisa, much in the way of diseases such as hepb/aids/sv40 you aren’t going to develop them from eating a hamburger, direct injection is a very different route of exposure with a very different outcome. I think it’s understood there is some chance taking,even among the developers of some of these vaccines, clearly they don’t know the future outcome of injecting animal or human dna into infants. I will not dismiss this as a “no biggy”. Science needs to catch up, and it will. Thinking of it as a graft vs host setup would put the right spin on this, not eating the dna of another species..I can’t believe that was even a consideration??

February 16, 2011 at 8:23 pm
(43) White&Nerdy says:

For Amanda, Diane, and Kristina,

Yes the most feared diagnosis statement was pretty silly.

A morbid topic, but personally I put Huntington’s:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001775

And Li-Fraumeni:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Fraumeni_syndrome

way, way above autism on my most feared list.

W&N

February 16, 2011 at 8:50 pm
(44) White&Nerdy says:

Hi Lisa,

A couple of clarifications.

Herd Immunity is a definition, it is a description of an observed phenomena. As a definition it can’t be wrong. That is like saying the color “Blue” or “Baroque” music are wrong.

Also, gene pool refers to populations–not individuals. Zusia is correct that vaccination affects the gene pool. E.g. when vaccination prevents deaths. Also some of the pathogens that we vaccinate against cause mutations–vaccination reduces/prevents these mutations.

Finally, there is a huge potential issue with unexpected consequences with changes in gene pools.

Many Caucasians have a particular mutation in a chemokine receptor (part of the immune system). Apparently this mutation was selected for because it results in resistance to the Black Plague. Fortuitously, the same receptor is needed for HIV infection. So people with this mutation also tend to be highly resistant to one of the major branches of the HIV virus. Lucky break.

Many people of African/Mediterranean origin have mutations in their hemoglobin genes. These mutations convey resistance to malaria. But they can also cause sickle-cell or alpha/beta thalassemias. Unlucky break.

Bottom line is that our gene pool is changing all the time and sometimes very unexpected outcomes result–perhaps centuries later.

W&N

February 16, 2011 at 9:05 pm
(45) Sare says:

My son age 5 was diagnosed back in November with Autism. We live in Canada and are required to have our children vaccinated. However, after my son’s diagnosis, I started paying close attention to when things started changing and what had been happening. You see, my son, was meeting all his milestones until he reached 2 years and 10 months and at that time he started to regress – his speech became muffled, his meltdowns were unbearable to the point where he would give himself nosebleeds and would vomit, he had severe separation anxiety and stopped eating foods that were in his diet daily, instead replacing them with only kraft dinner, cheese sandwiches, pogos and hotdogs – on a good day we would get some fruit in there. He had his vaccine not long before these symptoms started showing themselves. My husband and I underwent genetic testing prior to getting pregnant with him and no where was it found that there was anything wrong genetically, so I realized that it had to be his vaccination. In September, my son had his 5 year booster – his speech became muffled again, his meltdowns started going over the top again AND THE ONLY THING THAT CHANGED WAS HE GOT THAT VACCINE. So when all the scientists out there say there is no connection between autism and vaccinations, I laugh at them…it is not coincidence that his symptom got worse after having those vaccines.

February 16, 2011 at 9:20 pm
(46) Lisa says:

W&N, I was agreeing with Zusia.

My comments were in response to Barbaraj’s suggestion that contaminants in vaccines are causing genetic mutations: ““we’ve tampored with the gene pool”, I believe, by allowing in the dna of exotic animals, complete with their virus load as well as many toxins capable of mutating our dna structures through vaccination programs.”

Re herd immunity,the concept being discussed is that if enough of the “herd” is immune to a disorder then the remainder of the herd will be protected. Barbara says “Please, let’s do discuss the “measle” case, why fear it in the “herd”..because the herd concept could be a lie?”

Lisa

February 16, 2011 at 9:21 pm
(47) zusia says:

W&N– your ears must have been burning. I was just going to relate the connection between the plague survivors and those who are apparently immune to HIV. That’s a perfect example of the long term effects of an unbridled Mother Nature.

All these years, whenever I’ve read discoveries like this, I’ve smiled.

February 17, 2011 at 1:36 am
(48) Twyla says:

I find it very hard to believe that the reason for more autism today is because those children with autism, or their parents or grandparents, would have died without modern medicine, or because their parents or grandparents would have been unable to reproduce without modern medicine.

February 17, 2011 at 2:31 am
(49) murphy's law says:

I was at the taping and half of dr’s didn’t even speak. The panel was nasty and refused to answer questions from the crowd. Not at all what was expected. Parents were angry they didn’t have ANYTHING to say us. They only wanted to speak with parents that were “worried about Autism ” for their new born babies. Total waste since i never get to go anywhere without my son who has a Dx of PDDNOS. They didn’t talk about treatment education nothing of any value for us parents dealing with Autism oh and Autism Speaks was supposed to show and canceled @ the last min First thing OZ came out and said

February 17, 2011 at 4:59 am
(50) tony bateson says:

Well the herd immunity idea might not be a lie but it is certainly a questionable concept which appears to focus largely upon calculations of risk related to numbers rather than practical effect. How else can it be explained that herd immunity numbers are based upon the so called Nash Equilibrium a Game Theory used by Poker Players and in Carpet Bombing calculations?

It is a ‘reverse engineered’ concept that helps the pharmaceutical industry to attack it’s critics. In particular those who choose not to vaccinate and who according to these vaccine bigots put others at risk. They conspicuously fail to inform that measles diagnoses fell by 85% in Britain in the ten years following Wakefield’s report. So in that case falling vaccinations were accompanied by falling prevalence. Or in other words seriously impaired herd immunity levels resulted in 85% less disease. So much for that idea which if it is not an actual lie it is hardly truthful either. It is simply a ploy.

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.

February 17, 2011 at 7:03 am
(51) Lisa says:

Twyla – no one is saying that the biggest or only reason for autism is related to survival because of better healthcare… it was just a sideline conversation related to an earlier comment from Barbaraj.

There’s really no good way to know to what degree the development, for example, of better neo-natal care for preemies has changed our overall genetic ability to handle assaults on the immune system.

The real point of this conversation relative to this thread is to note the difference between the idea of changes over time which may have had an impact on our genome with the idea that animal DNA in vaccines could change the DNA of the individual who is injected, thus “tampering with the genetic pool.”

Lisa

February 17, 2011 at 9:57 am
(52) zusia says:

Sare — First–when genetic testing is done it can only reveal genetic anomalies that have already been identified and are known to exist, not those that have not yet been identified. So it’s impossible for doctors to say that there is nothing wrong genetically with either the parents or a fetus. They can’t tell you what you have, they can tell you what you don’t have. Most genetic testing focuses on a specific disorder they’re looking for due to risk factors– there must have been some concern or you wouldn’t have been tested in the first place.

Second, my child had a reaction to the initial MMR he received at 30 months but my feeling is he had the reaction because he was already autistic. He had regression after that but you have to understand that growth and development can trigger DNA changes. Every time cells replicate an error can occur somewhere. Most are insignificant, many are repaired automatically by the body, some wreak havoc in future years.

February 17, 2011 at 10:00 am
(53) zusia says:

Twyla– I’m sorry that you can’t wrap your brain around the concept that an increase in autism and other diseases and disorders is related to medical interventions of the past centuries. This is where you are at this point in time. I have no doubt that you will come to understand what I’m saying.

February 17, 2011 at 10:18 am
(54) Sandy says:

Like Twyla, I don’t necessarily believe that things like better neo-natal care for preemies has altered any overall genetic ability to handle assaults on the immune system for future generations of that preemie. Many genetic disorder’s have to do with ancestry and ethnic groups. Way back zillions of centuries ago when people married cousins. The Amish (who avoid modern medicine) have genetic disorders mainly only seen with them. Many of their children die young, but the genetic disorders never decline in live births.
I do believe autism has a genetic predisposition but of course I don’t recall science has actually truly located that.

February 17, 2011 at 10:27 am
(55) zusia says:

Premature births have increased by 27% since the early 80′s. These are babies saved from certain death slated by our old pal, Mother Nature. Almost all of those babies wouldn’t be alive today, to be statistics, if it were not for medical intervention.

You need to read the studies done on the long term effects of prematurity. Not only a high risk for autism– I think one study found that 25% of very early preemies had traits of autism– but high risk for other diseases and disorders that are on the rise, with boys being more severely affected than girls. Being a preemie also affects fertility, and a woman who was a preemie stands a very good chance of giving birth prematurely. Mother Nature isn’t forgiving. ;)

February 17, 2011 at 11:09 am
(56) Sandy says:

The issues preemies have are not only specific to premature babies. For instance many have autism that were not preemies and although there’s a high risk of cerebral palsy, you don’t have to be a preemie to have cerebral palsy. 20 percent of preemies have no disability at all. There’s a neat study out there that a high risk for premature birth was being unmarried. So if that infant survived, as long as they married their risk would be lower.

February 17, 2011 at 11:59 am
(57) Twyla says:

Zusia, I do understand what you are saying. I am quite capable of wrapping my brain around it. I just don’t agree that this is a significant factor in the very real increase in autism that we have seen in the past 30 years.

I do believe that modern medicine is responsible for much of the increase, primarily due to overuse of vaccines and also possibly overuse of antibiotics. (Although believe me I am not anti-antibiotics, and I am not anti-vaccines!)

And I think that environmental toxins such as mercury are a factor.

And it’s possible that some autism is purely genetic. But millions of dollars worth of genetic testing have found very little other than some anomalies which are slightly more common among those with autism than those without (such as MET), which may indicate a susceptibility factor.

I agree that it is possible that we are weakening the gene pool by no longer being in as much of “survival of the fittest” mode. People used to have a dozen children, of whom only a few survived to adulthood. Like you, I certainly would not want to go back to that, but it is true that if medications etc. allow most to survive, that could weaken the gene pool.

But most families I know with autism do not have any family history of fatal conditions, neurodevelopmental conditions, or infertility that would have resulted in no procreation were it not for modern medicine.

Studies have shown a higher rate of auto-immune conditions among families, which could indicate a susceptibility to vaccine induced autism caused by autoimmune reactions to nerve cells and inflammation in the brain and GI tract. Impaired detoxification ability could also be a susceptibility factor. Prematurity and low birth weight may also be risk factors for vaccine injury.

February 17, 2011 at 12:04 pm
(58) Lisa says:

I don’t think anyone is arguing that “the huge rise in autism diagnoses is caused by the high survival rate among modern preemies!”

I think perhaps the suggestion is that this (in addition to our ability to manage or cure chronic conditions that would have prohibited reproduction in the past) might be a contributor at some level.

More interesting, IMO, is the fact that Zusia and Twyla seem to have the opposite experience in polling friends and acquaintances with autistic children. While Zusia knows MANY who would not have survived infancy without significant medical intervention, Twyla knows very few.

Perhaps this is just an artifact of unscientific polling?

Lisa

February 17, 2011 at 1:02 pm
(59) Twyla says:

Actually, what Zusia said about the results of her “informal survey” is not so different from what I said:

“The most common interventions that I found were auto-immune diseases of the mother, PCOS and fertility issues, hypertension, pregnancy difficulties such as early labor (Mother Nature trying to expel the fetus), inability to nurse and other feeding issues, severe allergies and asthma, which untreated would lead to death, etc.”

Studies have shown that a family history of auto-immune disease and other immune system issues is indeed a risk factor for autism. Our interpretation of this is different, as I believe this is a risk factor for the immune system over-reacting to vaccines.

As far as children with autism suffering from food allergies, eczema, IBD, and other immune system disorders, this is evidence of what has also been confirmed by studies, namely that immune system dysregulation plays a role in autism. What could be affecting the immune system? What is the purpose of vaccines which start on the day of birth, or at age two monts? The purpose is to stimulate the immune system.

As far as feeding difficulties, one study found that giving the Hepatitis B vaccine on the day of birth to primates resulted in delayed acquisition of the ability to:
1) turn their head in response to a brush on the cheek (the root reflex);
2) open their mouth in response to a brush on the forehead (the snout reflex); and
3) suck on a nipple placed in their mouth (the suck reflex).
http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/09/blockbuster-primate-study-shows-significant-harm-from-one-birth-dose-of-a-mercurycontaining-vaccine.html

Of course, IBD, indigestion, and food allergies also cause feeding difficulties.

February 17, 2011 at 3:11 pm
(60) Sandy says:

Twyla, that Wakefield Primate study was withdrawn, at the request of the editor. The only place you’ll find it is on AoA.

I’m not sure why you’d need those unvaccinated to provide any different info. I would think looking at those who were vaccinted in comparison to the majority would be good info. We do know the majority of those vaccinated do not have autism. But there is plenty of unvaccinated kids out there that still have autism; comment 11 is one of them.

February 17, 2011 at 3:38 pm
(61) AutismNewsBeat says:

Thimerosal was removed from scheduled pediatric vaccines starting in 1999 due to concerns that the cumulative doses exceeded what children were capable of handling. Now the cumulative dose is about the same as the 1950s schedule. But anti-vaccine activists have moved the goal posts – it’s not about dose response anymore, but rather “zero tolerance.” And also “toxins”, including substances that were never in vaccines to begin with (anti-freeze, ether), and chemicals that are produced by our cells every day (formaldehyde).

It’s easier to scare people than it is to unscare them.

February 20, 2011 at 2:14 pm
(62) Twyla says:

@ Sandy 2/17/2011 3:22 comment
It was not withdrawn at the request of the editor, but at the request of the parent company. The editor of the journal Neurotoxicology, Joan Cranmer, who defended the paper when it was first published online as follows:
“As Editor of Neurotoxicology this is to inform you that the referenced manuscript has been subjected to rigorous independent peer review according to our journal standards. If you have issues with the science in the paper please submit them to me as a Letter to the Editor which will undergo peer review and will be subject to publication if deemed acceptable.”

Subsequently when the paper was withdrawn Ms. Cranmer referred inquiries to an Elsevier executive named Elizabeth Perill, who said that the paper was “not suitable for the audience of Neurotoxicology”.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/joan-cranmers-fateful-decisions-and-the-suppression-of-autism-science.html

February 17, 2011 at 1:15 pm
(63) Twyla says:

Zusia says, “What they fail to realize is that if the drug had not been used, their babies would have most likely become stillbirth statistics, because there was something ‘wrong’ about them that didn’t signal the uterus to begin contractions.” I disagree with the idea that most (or all) children with autism had something wrong since birth (or conception). I think many (probably most) would not have become autistic without environmental factors. Susceptibility factors are real, but in prior generations did not result in a 1 in 100 rate of autism. Many people with impaired detoxification, low glutathione, MET gene anamoly, mitochondrial weakness, or auto-immune tendencies did not become autistic when not exposed to two dozen vaccines by the age of two.

Where Mother Nature comes into this is that if dozens of childhood vaccines are permanently a part of our environment, those who cannot withstand them will be less likely to survive and procreate, so eventually maybe we will evolve into a species that can tolerate this vaccine schedule, and drinks mercury with breakfast.

February 17, 2011 at 3:42 pm
(64) AutismNewsBeat says:

Susceptibility factors are real, but in prior generations did not result in a 1 in 100 rate of autism.

And how do you know this? Are you talking about autistic disorder only? Kanner’s autism? All ASDs?

February 17, 2011 at 1:21 pm
(65) Twyla says:

Zusia also said, “I remember one in particular in the UK where vaccination rates dropped due to the Wakefield influence and the parents who chose not to vaccinate unintentionally became part of the stats that demonstrated that the rate of autism among unvaccinated children was the same as among vaccinated children.” I don’t believe this. I’d be interested in seeing your citation.

Here’s an interesting article by Dr. Edward Yazbak about measles in England:
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/measles-united-kingdom-wakefield-factor

February 17, 2011 at 1:41 pm
(66) Twyla says:

I think Barbaraj makes a good point that injecting foreign animal DNA may have unforeseen consequences, particularly at such a young age. Injection is very different from ingestion and inhalation, as pointed out by this 1913 Nobel Prize winner, who said:

“We are so constituted that we can never receive other proteins into the blood than those that have been modified by digestive juices. Every time alien protein penetrates by effraction, the organism suffers and becomes resistant. This resistance lies in increased sensitivity, a sort of revolt against the second parenteral injection which would be fatal. At the first injection, the organism was taken by surprise and did not resist. At the second injection, the organism mans its defences…”

This paper is about anaphylaxis, but he says “There does exist then, besides direct anaphylaxis, an indirect anaphylaxis, about which little is so far known…”

He found that individual animals reacted very differently to successive injections – some continuing to have the same level of reaction, some becoming desensitized and reacting less, and others having escalating reactions which became more severe with each injection. He concluded that, “Each one of us, by our chemical make-up, above all by our blood and probably also by the protoplasm of each cell, is himself and no one else. In other words, he has a humoral personality. We all know very well what the personality of the psyche is… Now, in the light of notions of immunity and of anaphylaxis, we can conceive of another personality in juxtaposition to the moral personality and that is the humoral personality, which makes us different from other men by the chemical make-up of our humours.” Interesting in the context of how some have strong adverse reactions to vaccines and some do not.

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1913/richet-lecture.html

[Warning - his experiments are cruel to the animals!!]

February 17, 2011 at 7:05 pm
(67) White&Nerdy says:

Hi Lisa,

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that you were disagreeing with Zusia–I was just expanding on the topic and clarifying what gene pool refers to.

What else is there to discuss about head immunity? Anyone that says it doesn’t exist or that it is a lie is definitional wrong. Seems like a short discussion.

The whole gene pool/autism prevalence discussion is basically conjecture. Certainly some people are now surviving to reproduce who historically wouldn’t have. This could impact the autism numbers.

Similarly, if one has Asperger’s are they more or less likely to reproduce in 2011 vs 1911? Again, this could have some impact on the numbers–but it doesn’t seem like an important factor to me.

W&N

February 17, 2011 at 7:17 pm
(68) White&Nerdy says:

Hi Tony,

This is what happens when you hang out at unreliable sites–they fill your head up with nonsense.

The UK HPA is kind enough to post the data:
http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733833790

In fact in ever one of years since Wakefield’s paper there has more measles cases then the year he published in.

I believe you are correct–this is a ploy, part of the anti-vacc fraud to deceive parents.

Good news: if you try going to reliable sites you can find what herd immunity is, and how Nash equilibrium and game theory are just tools used to analyze and understand reality.

Here is place to get you started:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0012594
“Some of these approaches use game theory, which predicts what strategies an individual should adopt when their payoff depends on what strategies others adopt. Game theory requires solving for the Nash equilibrium, which in population games is a strategy such that no sufficiently small group of individuals can achieve a higher payoff by adopting a different strategy [19]. In the context of vaccination policy, full vaccination coverage is often predicted not to be a Nash equilibrium, since herd immunity deriving from high vaccine coverage means a small group of individuals could achieve a higher payoff by not vaccinating.”
W&N

February 17, 2011 at 7:21 pm
(69) White&Nerdy says:

Hi Gale,

Welcome to the discussion.

Amish do vaccinate.

This assertion that they don’t is an outright fabrication that the vaccine critics keep repeating even after years and years of correcting.

Which I suppose is why they are marginalized to yelling on the internet. They simply aren’t truthful. A fact you will quickly see if you start fact-checking their arguments.

W&N

February 18, 2011 at 7:05 am
(70) tony bateson says:

White and Nerdy should look closer to home for unreliable websites when quoting HPA figures. My information says there were 188,483 HPA reported cases of measles in the ten years to 1998 and in the ten years following there were 28,289 HPA reported cases. 1998 was the date of Wakefield’s report. Perhaps you can explain your mangling of the implications of 85% fewer reported cases of measles.
Lower ‘Herd Immunity’ clearly means less cases!

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK

February 18, 2011 at 7:15 am
(71) kim says:

The Dr. Oz Show on autism had no point. Did the producers really think they were going to answer the question, ‘what causes autism?” in the 30 minutes that was actually devoted to the topic (oddly, the show shifted gears at the end). Given the high level emotion attached to this issue, there will likely never be a definitive answer to the cause question. It was tabloid TV at its best.

The theme of the show should have shown current research and theories (there are hundreds) rather than focusing on the one hot button.

Let’s focus on acceptance and understanding, and look for the strengths in those who have already been diagnosed while the research continues.

February 18, 2011 at 8:41 am
(72) Sylvia Martin says:

Dr Oz
I have tremendous respect for you to share the information you shared on Autism…to all those people who commented with negativety go look in the mirror…Dr Oz is just trying to help and shed some much needed light on this subject. I have three children and i greatly appreciate his sharing. And to his wife congrads for having Reiki in your life what a gift to you and your family…this is why i became a reikie healing so i may help my children and family with God help…”God helps those who help themselves”…Blessing and again thank you Dr Oz for sharing….Blessing Namaste

February 18, 2011 at 2:51 pm
(73) Martin says:

It seems that Dietary intervention is seriously warranted – strategic and calculated food intake is a must for these children, than random/haphazard diets.

Dr. Oz has said “Some of the most promising treatments for autism come from changing the foods that the child is eating…one of the first things you do with children that have autism….from a pure nutritional level, you cut out dairy, you cut out wheat, you cut out foods that might be causing inflammation in the child.”

Dr. Bob Sears said “”When it comes to the diet….I would say that at least 75% of parents report positive results, and many of those report amazing results.”

The scientific rationale for autism diets is extensive – advising (and educating) that parents take charge of DIET should be a first and foremost intervention.

This is a no-brainer – everyone from Hippocrates to Homer Simpson knows that Diet Matters.

There’s an outstanding referenced article here http://generationrescue.com/autismdiets

Martin

February 18, 2011 at 4:43 pm
(74) Sandy says:

It’s a nice idea to change diet and remove dairy and wheat but wouldn’t you want to know why the body isn’t handling it? Dairy and wheat have been a staple of life for ever and all of a sudden those kids with autism get better eating something else without medical evidence of why? And if those same kids cant handle that, how does one know they can handle supplements? We know those with Celiac cant have wheat, we know there are those who are lactose intolerant. Both can occur along with autism. But these diets are presented specifically to those with autism as if it’s part of autism. Maybe it isn’t. Maybe it’s just promoting a new market of diet products.

February 18, 2011 at 4:45 pm
(75) AutismNewsBeat says:

That’s not exactly the strongest evidence for GF/CF – “I would say that at least 75% of parents report positive results, and many of those report amazing results.” We can’t possible know if it works with a control group. I’ve witnessed “amazing results” in my son without GF/CF, chelation, chemical castration, hyperbaric oxygen or swimming with dolphins.

February 18, 2011 at 8:15 pm
(76) White&Nerdy says:

Hi Tony,

The number of cases of measles per year are posted above. Clearly your claim that there were 85% fewer cases post-Wakefield is wrong since there were more cases each year.

If you were to actually bother to read the site, you would see how you were deceived.

The number you gave are for the number of samples tested–not the number of cases.

So like most of the anti arguments, it doesn’t stand up to any good faith effort to verify. All you have to do is look.

W&N

February 19, 2011 at 5:13 am
(77) Tony Bateson says:

It’s White and Nerdy who isn’t reading what I said. HPA Reported Cases! in the ten years prior to and after Wakefield showed an 85% fall in the latter so what do you think was happening when he suggests that confirmed cases were higher. Does it mean in the latter ten years the disparity between reported cases and confirmed cases increased by a massive margin? Why might that be?

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.

February 20, 2011 at 4:25 pm
(78) white&Nerdy says:

Hi Tony,

The exact point is that you aren’t talking about reported cases.

You just choose not to look at the site and see how they deceived you.

W&N

February 19, 2011 at 1:50 pm
(79) Babs says:

ok, so vaccines don’t cause autism….prove it, give me a study that proves vaccines don’t cause autism….show me a study where completely vaxed vs completely unvaxed was done…..I won’t hold my breath

February 19, 2011 at 1:57 pm
(80) autism says:

Babs – what if such a study were conducted, and no difference in autism incidence were found. Would you accept the finding?

Lisa

February 19, 2011 at 2:29 pm
(81) Babs says:

for fully vaxxed vs completely unvaxed yes i would

February 20, 2011 at 4:31 pm
(82) White&Nerdy says:

Babs,

You mean like this one?
http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/survey.pdf

4% of unvaccinated kids had an ASD diagnosis.
3% of fully/partially vaccinated kids had an ASD diagnosis.

Not that it really matters since this sort of vac vs unvac study yields invalid data anyway…

W&N

February 19, 2011 at 6:53 pm
(83) Kelly says:

SO SO SO DONE listening to this discussion. Every time there is a discussion about autism, the entire time is spent fighting over vaccines. Great, they cause autism. Great, they don’t. Now, what are you going to do about the 700,000 children with ASD for the next 50-80 years? THAT should be everyone’s plight. One day, your child with autism is going to grow up. What caused this disorder is not going to matter because you will be living with autism. Much like cancer, you can spend all of your time complaining about what caused it, or go fight to live your life with it.
http://www.puzzlepieceprincess.com

February 20, 2011 at 8:40 am
(84) Tony Bateson says:

This is blinkered nonsense to say that what causes autism doesn’t matter. It matters enormously because if it is vaccines it could have been found many years ago and millions of autistic people would have been saved from the misery they inhabit today as well as countless millions in the future. If it’s vaccines eg Thimerosal, the focus this would give to finding a cure or palliative treatment would be huge. This is the tragedy of a mindless industry that continues to manufacture dangerous materials and continues to solicit the medical authorities to pump this stuff into tiny infants. It is nothing more important than Shelf Life and it is a crime and people should stand trial for it.

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.

February 20, 2011 at 9:57 am
(85) Sandy says:

“It matters enormously because if it is vaccines it could have been found many years ago and millions of autistic people would have been saved from the misery they inhabit today”

There probably is not millions with autism and the majority who have had vaccines do not have autism so vaccines really isn’t “mindless” or “ctiminal”. Again, finding the cause ‘might’ only benefit the prevention and the likeliness it would help those already with autism is very small.

Many children with autism also are not in misery. Of course the ones I see in more misery than these kids are the adults who are so angry.

February 20, 2011 at 10:24 am
(86) Twyla says:

Kelly, the topic of this episode of Dr. Oz was causation, and in particular vaccines. Adult services would be a great topic to discuss elsewhere. Not forbidden here, but it doesn’t make sense to complain about discussing causation/vaccines on this thread.

Furthermore, I agree with Tony B that if we can understand causation this should result in fewer adults with autism competing for services.

February 20, 2011 at 11:56 am
(87) Sandy says:

The topic of this episode of Dr. Oz was causation, and in particular 3 possible causes. The show started with vaccines to clearly get that one out of the way first, not meaning it was the first or most important.

February 20, 2011 at 3:33 pm
(88) MomOfOne says:

Maybe autism wouldn’t be “the diagnosis that parents fear the most” if certain so-called advocacy groups would stop going around spreading misinformation.

I am not naming names. Just sayin’ is all:^)

February 20, 2011 at 4:00 pm
(89) AutismNewsBeat says:

Aluminum is used as an adjuvant.

Wrong. An aluminum salt is used as an adjuvant. Do you sprinkle chlorine gas on your french fries?

February 20, 2011 at 11:52 pm
(90) Babs says:

@w&n so if its invalid then why not do one that is?

February 21, 2011 at 10:39 am
(91) Mad says:

Dr. Oz takes care of Oprah’s thyroid condition and uses hompathy. Years ago I was trying Vitamens and other Herbs and was still having problems. Dr. finally told me to stop all of that and they found I had a thyroid condition. Oprah thinks Dr. Oz is great and she has called Suzann Somer a “pioneer” in cancer. You have to wonder.

February 21, 2011 at 10:48 am
(92) NanNJ says:

I think literally, and for the life of me I cannot understand how we can think we aren’t doing anything to our immune systems when we are putting little bits of so many potentially lethal diseases along with other potentially lethal ingredients directly into the bloodstream of infants whose immune systems are not even fully developed yet, and not think we are doing something to our immune systems. We are doing this to ourselves, it can never be admitted because it would cost too much money to fix.

February 21, 2011 at 12:39 pm
(93) Tony Bateson says:

Isn’t NanNJ absolutely on the ball when she says that she cannot think how putting complex chemicals including highly toxic materials into the bloodstream of infants can possibly be without harmful consequences. Most other drugs are withdrawn long before this level of concern is reached. The only reason that vaccines seem to be so fireproof is that the industry has invested vast resources into the credibility of the system and has created a ‘belief wall’ that will surely go the way of the other one that protected a similarly corrupt system in Berlin.

Incidentally not that long ago one maker of infant painkillers claimed in its advertising that infants do not possess an immune system and thus needed their products. Like the crooked system I referred to they will tell you anything that protects their interests and if they say it long and often enough they will believe it.

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.

February 21, 2011 at 12:45 pm
(94) Lisa says:

Tony – are we seriously going back to the Nazi comparisons? In what conceivable way do you think that the recommended use of vaccines relates to the Third Reich???

Lisa

February 21, 2011 at 1:52 pm
(95) tony bateson says:

Lisa, Get up to date please, I know this is Europe and it’s a long way away but surely everyone knows the Berlin Wall came a bit later than the Nazis and was absolutely nothing to do with them. It was a wall built by a totalitarian system to contain the aspirations and beliefs of the people kept locked up behind it. To me that seems a pretty apt description of a vaccine system built upon a flood of dollars, a cowed medical establishment, corrupt courts and a pathetic imitation of a free press.

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK

February 21, 2011 at 12:56 pm
(96) Sandy says:

Vaccines aren’t injected directly into the blood stream of any infant. One wonders what the actual exposure virus does to the immune system, which is of course why they created vaccines.

February 21, 2011 at 1:27 pm
(97) Carmen says:

There are a lot of arguments for and against vaccinations.
Has anyone thought that it may not matter. What if my daughter has autism because i recieved my vaccinations?

February 21, 2011 at 1:37 pm
(98) Heidi says:

There are so many people concerned about the discovery of a child with autism or how to prevent, and how to see the signs.
I went through all of this 15 years ago when no one knew what was happening and no real programs for my children.
Many times I was called at work to come pick up my daughter from her ESE class at school. I couldn’t keep a job. I was involved in any program I could help developed for my kids back then. Now my son is almost 18 and my daughter is 16, and I now have all new set of problems and I can’t find the proper programs and extended living facilities when I’m not around. Its impossible to find anything for autistic teenagers and adults. Its all for the toddlers and youngsters. Please can someone help me and my children, I fear for their futures.

February 21, 2011 at 1:44 pm
(99) Carmen says:

I live in Southwest Missouri. There isn’t a whole lot here, but i do have my daughter involved in a group called Touchpoint for Autism (formerly known as Judevine). Perhaps there is something similar in your area. I found out about a lot of programs that are available when my 13 year-old daughter was officially diagnosed about a year and a half ago. You might as your family doctor for referals.

February 21, 2011 at 2:48 pm
(100) Mary Rita says:

It is not really difficult to figure out that the more toxins that we put into our bodies (vaccines,junk food, etc) will impact ones health. I truly believe if a child is given 5 to 9 shots at one visit it will impact their overall health. Just read the inserts of each vaccine and you will see.

The medical community already lied to the public by given children the hep B shot on day two of being born. Research it for yourself.
After researching that look up floride and see how poisonous that is too.

February 21, 2011 at 5:15 pm
(101) AutismNewsBeat says:

I truly believe if a child is given 5 to 9 shots at one visit it will impact their overall health.

Me too. I truly believe that protecting a child against five to nine diseases will impact his/her overall health.

February 21, 2011 at 5:25 pm
(102) Shelley says:

Dear Tony B.,

I just want to thank you for TRYing to extricate all
the emotional aspects out of this/these issue(s)! I live
I live with Asperger’s; I don’t know where it came
from; I didn’t exhibit any of the “typical” signs
until after I was 25!
I just want some HELP living with it! I cannot find
SUPPORT anywhere (and I don’t mean on the
Internet)!

All this bickering doesn’t do ANYbody ANY good!
And for all of you who quote statistics, PLEASE
Include the study from which you got them?
It’s QUITE difficult looking up things that are made
out of (obviously thin) air!

Thank You!

February 21, 2011 at 6:05 pm
(103) Becky says:

I am the parent of two autistic teenagers, the oldest is non-verbal and the youngest is verbal, they are so different. My oldest has behavior problems at school and the youngest at home. I always hear parents saying I would not change my child for anything, but I can say If possible I would give my life if they could have a typical life. My life is not totally different, but theirs is. Working in a school I see children with different disabilities looking at other kids when they are having fun, I feel that something was taken away from my boys. I sse these children wanting to be part of their peers and they are not totally accepted, other kids are even scared. If I could I would change my boys life.

February 21, 2011 at 6:09 pm
(104) White&Nerdy says:

Hi Tony,

There is nothing toxic in a vaccine.

Same situation as above, you can check out the toxicology and see how you have been deceived, or you can keep refusing to learn the facts.

W&N

February 21, 2011 at 6:15 pm
(105) White&Nerdy says:

Hi Mary Rita,

I agree with you, it isn’t very hard to figure out.

When they aren’t threatening to murder journalists and scientists, anti-vaccs lie about there being toxins in vaccines and abut how infants aren’t at risk of getting HepB.

I truly believe that anyone that has made it through middle-school and bothers to look can figure out that the anti-vaccs are frauds and scammers.

W&N

February 21, 2011 at 7:16 pm
(106) valeska says:

I have created a petition online in the hopes of getting enough signatures to convince Dr. Oz and his producers to do a follow-up show. This time to talk about the ASD community, our fight, our love, our support for one another. To talk about early intervention, therapies and treatments. We shouldn’t be showing parents who think having autistic kids is a burden, instead we should show the good moments and how wonderful our kids are. We need to educate everyone of the real meaning of autism. Together I am confident that we can. Feel free to click on the link on my name or go to ipetitions.com/giveautismachance

Thank you

February 21, 2011 at 9:30 pm
(107) AutismNewsBeat says:

valeska, what a wonderful message that would be. Unfortunately, the message of acceptance and accommodation undermines the anti-vaccine message of gloom and doom, so Oz is unlikely to go that way.

February 21, 2011 at 11:10 pm
(108) Twyla says:

W&N says, “anti-vaccs lie about…” and “anti-vaccs are frauds and scammers”.

ANB says, “the anti-vaccine message of gloom and doom…”

Neuroscience Professor Christopher Shaw says, “an ad hominem attack on an opponent’s character or credibility is a tacit admission that the logical argument is lost”.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/02/bmj-ad-hominen-attacks-on-scientists.html

I think that both of you should spend more energy on showing us the science which you keep saying proves no autism-vaccine link, and less energy on calling everyone with vaccine concerns “anti-vaccine” and various perjoratives.

February 21, 2011 at 11:53 pm
(109) Sandy says:

A link from AoA about Wakefield is hardly showing us the science. Wakefield has yet to prove vaccines did anything in any study that has never been retracted or removed.

February 22, 2011 at 8:25 am
(110) tony bateson says:

Well Lisa you are still not reading what I said I referred to a phoney wall of belief and then referred to that other wall in Berlin. That should be quite clear.

I certainly did not mention the word conspiracy. I worked in the tobacco industry I know what happens when an industry is under siege, I was there when ‘Infotab’ came into being to counter nasty rumours in the US Surgeon General’s report that tobacco was harmful. I was around too when Richard Doll asked why is it that 90% of patients in cardio-thoracic wards diagnosed with lung cancer were former smokers whilst only 30% of the general public smoked? That’s why I ask the same question of the autism community why are all those diagnosed with ASD kids who were vaccinated whilst in the UK at least up to 20% may have never had vaccines and don’t seem to include any autistic persons?

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK

February 22, 2011 at 8:37 am
(111) Lisa says:

Tony – you say “That’s why I ask the same question of the autism community why are all those diagnosed with ASD kids who were vaccinated whilst in the UK at least up to 20% may have never had vaccines and don’t seem to include any autistic persons?”

Just curious: where do you get the info that there is no autism among unvaccinated individuals in the UK?

Lisa

February 22, 2011 at 11:58 am
(112) tony bateson says:

Well Lisa you asked the question and I am happy to answer you. I started working for the autistic community in 1969 and I have remained as Chairman, trustee variously of several organisations ever since. I have met many hundreds of parents and I have spoken at dozens of conferences here in the UK and in the USA. I always ask the question and I rarely get any kind of answer but never have I had an answer that indicates an unequivocal case of an unvaccinated autistic person. Now instead of asking me the question how I know why don’t people point to the hundreds of unvaccinated autistic people they know of. They never, ever do because such people do not exist. That’s how I know because I have done the work since I first read in a UK national newspaper in September 1996 that vaccines could be incriminated in autism. I had known this since I watched my daughter deteriorate within hours of her second DTP jab in 1964 but no medic would ever entertain my reading of events until 32 years later a medical reporter wrote that article. Since then heavily stamped upon of course, but I’ve still got the article.

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.

February 22, 2011 at 10:00 am
(113) AutismNewsBeat says:

I was around too when Richard Doll asked why is it that 90% of patients in cardio-thoracic wards diagnosed with lung cancer were former smokers whilst only 30% of the general public smoked?

Yes, that was powerful epidemiological evidence for a connection between smoking and disease.

February 22, 2011 at 12:05 pm
(114) autism says:

Tony – thanks for explaining your reasoning.

I find it extraordinary that you actually saw your daughter deteriorate within hours of a vaccination, and no one would credit your statement or examine your child – especially if the symtoms were severe.

It sounds like a cut and dried case of vaccine damage – and at least here in the states there’s no doubt that vaccine damage does occur and that compensation is offered to damaged parties.

As regards the question “do ANY unvaccinated children develop autism,” I can only say that there have been commenters on this very site whose unvaccinated children are autistic. I have no idea how common or uncommon this is.

Lisa

February 24, 2011 at 12:58 pm
(115) tony bateson says:

Lisa I am glad you can appreciate why it is that I believe what I do. Not only did doctors dismiss my suggestion that vaccines were implicated in my daughter’s condition but so often they dealt with the question in such similar ways as to suggest an adopted form of rebuttal. They said ‘it is nothing but a dreadful coincidence, I can tell you there’s no connection at all’. If there was or is an adopted form of rebuttal it suggests these circumstances are much more common than they allow.

As to unvaccinated autistic children, I have had a small number notified to me but in every case the child had a vaccination the parents excluded, or the child’s mother had Rho-Gam treatment or Anti-D as it is known in the UK. which contains vaccine ingredients similar to DPT. In one case a few years ago the mother had amalgam dental treatment in the early months of her pregnancy a procedure forbidden by law in Scotland because of the mercury content of dental amalgams. Note too that in the UK waste dental amalgams have to be removed from dentists’ clinics in specially sealed containers by toxic waste operatives.

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.

February 22, 2011 at 12:07 pm
(116) Katherine Chapman says:

THE WORST THING FOR MY CHILD TO HAVE IS TO HAVE THE WORLD PUT A NEGATIVE TAG ON HIM AND NOT ACCEPT HIM FOR THE PERSON GOD CREATED HE OR SHE TO BE. GOD HAS A PURPOSE FOR THEIR LIVES. US PARENTS NEED TO ACCEPT AUTISM SO WE CAN IN RETURN GET OUR CHILDREN TO ACCEPT THEIR AUTISM. WE TOLD OUR SON HE HAS AUTISM AS HE WANTED TO KNOW WHY HE WAS IN SPECIAL CLASSES SINCE HE WAS 2 YEARS OLD. THE AUTISTIC CHILD FINDING THEIR PLACE IN OUR SOCIETY BY FEELING LOVED AND ACCEPTED IS THE BEST THING US AS PARENTS AND AS A SOCIETY CAN DO FOR AUTISTIC CHIDREN. THE WORST THING FOR ANY CHILD IS NOT BEING ACCEPTED EVEN WITH THEIR CHALLENGE AND PUT AWAY IN A CORNER LIKE THEY ARE FREAKS.

February 22, 2011 at 4:52 pm
(117) AutismNewsBeat says:

Debi, that 4:10,000 figure was for DSM-III autistic disorder, and the diagnostic criteria were much more restrictive than today. Today’s 66:10,000 includes cases includes milder forms of the disorder, plus cases that were once given a different label.

February 24, 2011 at 9:41 pm
(118) Ross Coe says:

I’ve read comments on many sites. I watched the orchastrated autism show directed at getting sheeples to accept herd immunity. We’re treated as animals who need management.
Unbelieveably, so many people haven’t seemed to have heard the incredable finding by the most anticipated and heralded Genome Project. It was to purportedly the be-all and end-all of the debate over the cause of autism. The report was released, but it sputtered rather that exploded. Its most important finding was that they found, the autistic children had genetic mutation that DID NOT originate with their parents. So between birth and 3 years, what causes the mutation that causes autism? Search mercury and /or aluminum and spontaneous genetic mutation. There’s your cause.

February 24, 2011 at 11:36 pm
(119) AutismNewsBeat says:

I know some parents who have an autistic child they said they never vaccinated. But it turned out the kid was conceived in a Mercury mini-van.

March 7, 2011 at 12:59 am
(120) Ross Coe says:

Only a piece of human garbage could joke about this.

April 7, 2011 at 6:36 pm
(121) christine Ellison says:

Dr oz some i think iam losting my mind i dont i am 52 year old i just feel bad iam hot all the time and iam coid ican not sleep i can not think at time what wrong with me. it so many thing happine to me i lot my husdand last year may.it so many thing on my mind ican not think rigth

April 15, 2011 at 4:18 am
(122) jen says:

Dr Oz is always educating people on health issues as well as encouraging them to speak up to their doctors and not to be so passive when it comes to their health. so i don’t find it strange that he encouraged both the set vaccine schedules and spacing them out if it makes you more comfortable. in other words he doesn’t see a problem with either way of doing it.

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