"Dateline" Addresses Autism and Vaccines
On Sunday, August 30, according to the NBC website: "NBC News' Matt Lauer will take an unprecedented look at the emotional debate surrounding vaccines and the suggested link to autism on Sunday, August 30 at 7 p.m. ET with "Dose of Controversy."
Lauer has lined up a set of interviewees whose conflicting views promise a major explosion of fireworks.
He'll be interviewing Andrew Wakefield, the British doctor whose controversial research led millions to believe firmly in a link between autism and vaccines;
He'll then add investigative journalist Brian Deer to the mix. Deer's reports on Wakefield suggest that the latter's work was built on fraud and lies;
Then, just to keep things interesting, Lauer has also invited Paul Offit. Offit is the author of the book False Prophets -- a work which lambasts Wakefield as the instigator of an anti-vaccine movement that's costing the lives and health of children around the world.
According to the website, Wakefield will "react to his harshest critics" on the air.
I certainly plan to set my TIVO to record tomorrow's Dateline, though I have a feeling the program may be closer to a Jerry Springer episode than to a news event.
Comments
Lisa
Brian Deers crediblity is seriosly in doubt in the the UK.
its a standing joke amoungst journalist that he changes his website to suit his version of events.
when dealing with parents who beleive their childrn have been killed of damaged by modern medicine he just hurls abuse.
you really should watch this film
“Selective Hearing ,Brian Deer and the GMC”
http://www.viddler.com/explore/ziggy/videos/1/
I would really like you to review it .
… forget the fact that Andrew Wakefield is in the process of losing his license in the UK. but that doesn’t really matter. He’s working in the US now!
I am pointedly not watching it and have warned my husband to let anyone know that we think Wakefield is a quack and don’t agree with him. Every time there’s something in the media we get told about it.
I had a real gastroenterologist look at my son’s ‘gut’ issues. He doesn’t have a ‘leaky’gut, or measles in his gut, as Andrew Wakefield would tell me if I was made of money. My son instead has something called disaccharidase deficiency. It’s extremely rare, and genetic. and has nothing to do with autism. Wakefield is a gastroenterologist, and apparently a piss poor one at that, considering he had to run away to the US in order to continue to practice. Not a geneticist, not a neurologist, not a psychologist and not a psychiatrist. His Thoughtful House is partially funded by a Dixie Chick. Who I’m guessing is yet another celebrity that cannot accept her kid’s autism could have been caused by a genetic problem. On top of the crackpot dangerous biomedical treatments, they also provide behavioral ones. The behavioral ones are probably the ones that really garner improvement. I’m just glad I don’t live in TX.
The real controversy should be why behavioral treatments are so expensive and why insurance companies won’t help cover the costs. Why the only parents that get the services from the school districts that are required by law are the ones that can afford to sue the district. Why there are so few services available for such a supposedly common condition. Why more money is going to research vaccines after numerous studies that cannot find a link have already been made, including a study by one of Wakefields team members who failed to reproduce his results. I’d certainly like to see more research into whether the special diets really help, and why. what therapies help what kinds of autism. I’d like to see research defining different presentations of autism.
I’d also like researchers to take more time to evaluate a kid like my son. (they have to evaluate to make sure the kid is really autistic and where he stands as far as development) He was unable to participate in a gene study because they couldn’t evaluate him in two hours. So I’m guessing most of the studies out there don’t represent most of the severe cases. Which pretty much means they’re useless.
Navi.. you should stop reading pamphlets designed to sell you the lie that your child needs 50+ injections before the age of seven… you have alot of reading to do… read what wakefield has actually done.. your not.. your listening to doctors who make money off of people like you who are willing to believe anything rather than admitting you may have put your child in harms way.
The fact is autism did not exsist like this before this vaccine campagne and these diseases only became deadly when the vaccines came out.. before they were considered benign.. we will have future generation with no natural immunity to any of it.. vaccine strains will mutate and vaccines will loose any effectiveness and we will have bigger issues down the road… this is sad that people have to defend themselves against mandatory injections because the majority don’t know what they are doing.. easier to get angry at the parents than the doctors that did this to you.. the other parents are not as intimidating.. the plain fact that a vaccine administered intramuscularly goes directly to the brain is enough for me to start questioning the effects of all these injections.. you have to be crazy not to see something is horribly wrong with the vaccination campagne
Irene: you say “The fact is autism did not exsist like this before this vaccine campagne and these diseases only became deadly when the vaccines came out”
The reality is that autism didn’t exist “like this” prior to the late 1980’s at least in part because there was no such thing as an “autism spectrum disorder.” The concept was invented at that time. Asperger syndrome did not exist as a diagnosis until the late 1980’s either.
To suggest that measles, pertussis, diphtheria and polio were benign prior to the invention of vaccines is absurd. Many, many people – mostly young children – died as a result of those diseases. Have you never heard of measles fatalities or the “iron lung?”
While it is possible that some children are damaged by vaccines, you are taking the argument way beyond fact to the realms of fantasy.
Lisa
It always surprises me how one journalist is praised for their findings while another is not. If it wasn’t Brian Deer, it would had been someone else anyway. That study made Wakefield famous for all the wrong reasons and I’m not sure I’d want a doctor looking at my child who didn’t follow protocol.
I also took my son to a peds gastroenteritis, which I believe Wakefield was not a peds doc to begin with. My son doesn’t have leaky gut or measles with in the gut either. But he still has autism.
To suggest 50 + injections before the age of 7 is also absurd and a scare tactic many wont fall for. Wakefield also made some good money back in the 1990’s off of children, so don’t suggest other doctors are the only ones at fault and then not include Wakefield. Wakefield alone is an example of conflict of interest when it comes to his famous study. Natural immunity is also rather odd. When exposed to the listed items Lisa provided, you didn’t gain immunity. What you gained was dead or horribly crippled. This is the most incorrect statement I have heard yet, anyone can look at history and see it’s untrue. The mothers prior to vaccines were begging the medical community to do something to prevent their babies from dying. There is also no such thing as mandatory vaccines. Also, don’t assume the majority blindly had their children vaccinated. It was our parental choice regardless of the misinformation spread here. Since vaccines are not mandatory, there was a choice.
I cant wait to see this show. I had seen Wakefield on other shows and it should be interesting to see him and what he has to say.
wow. thanks for the defense, all.
I don’t read “pamphlets.” I read peer reviewed studies because I work at a university and have access to them. I also read the information from the CDC that my pediatrician provides that says who should and who should not receive vaccinations. This information lists side effects that occur as rarely as 1/30,000. That’s .003%.
And I really take offense at being told that vaccines caused my son’s autism, when they didn’t. My family has a number of genetic disorders that are not evident at birth. I consider autism to be among them. It may not be so for other families, but it is for mine.
The time my son regressed was not within months of receiving his MMR. It was quite steadily after he started running. That became all he did. He ran, ate cheerios, and knocked things over. He stopped talking, he stopped feeding himself with a spoon. He stopped eating a variety of foods.
As the others have stated, there are no required vaccines. You can get a note from your doctor saying there’s a medical reason not to, or, in most states, you can sign a statement stating it’s against your beliefs. If you are not being provided this information by your school, I’d suggest you report it. If you choose to home school, no one is going to require any vaccinations of you.
And I’m sorry, even if I wanted to do everything Andrew Wakefield suggests, I could not afford to. I’m more inclined to do what the Pediatric Gastroenterologist that performed his EGD tells me. As proteins are quite a bit more expensive than starches, and my son will not put up with eating less than 10% of a serving every two hours, it’s rather difficult for us to even do that. I could afford the testing because it was medically necessary and both my private insurance and the Medicaid my son receives paid for it. I also have pictures of my son’s very healthy small intestine, so I know I’m not being lied to.
My oldest daughter is probably the child that had the most vaccinations in the shortest amount of time. She also had them before the mercury was removed. She is definitely not autistic. She’s advanced in language, very social, and thinks more abstractly than most people. She is quite literally the opposite of autism. A little ADHD, yes, but not Autistic. The ADHD can be very squarely blamed on genetics, considering her father and uncle both have it.
By the time I had my son, I was less paranoid than one is with their first, and I did not go to great lengths to make sure he got his vaccinations at the youngest age allowed on the schedule, as I did his sister. I just made sure they were close to the schedule. He was born after the mercury was removed. And again, his regression wasn’t really connected in any way to the timing of his vaccinations. The closest vaccinations to his regression were the DTAP and the Hepatitis vaccinations, not the MMR. So no, I have no reason to think Wakefields ideas have any bearing on my son. My youngest is also fully vaccinated and she appears to have a bad case of typical child disorder…
I see the Hobbits are here to abuse Brian Deer. I too live in the United Kingdom and have read Mr Deer’s work in The Sunday Times since I was a young doctor. He is a journalist with one of the highest reputations for honesty and accuracy. From what I read, The Sunday Times stands behind his stories on Dr Wakefield, and the BBC fought a long lawsuit against Dr Wakefield, and it was Dr Wakefield who capitulated. Mr Deer’s achievement of restoring public confidence in the M.M.R vaccine makes him a hero to many.
The only one who did any abusing really was Wakefield. It wouldn’t had mattered if Deer wrote about it or not, eventually when that study was released much would had come forth anyway like not having permission to conduct the study in the first place. A 12 person study, all having autism doesn’t and didn’t offer much of anything science-wise. I have red what Wakefield has done, and it isn’t much. He did another study consisting of only 6. Now that he’s in an establishment (Thoughtful House) we have to rely on the state of Texas medical board to be sure he’s following protocol and not hurting any children or conducting painful tests on them. He placed himself in a setting where who really is watching over what he’s doing? He already has a history of being sneaky and not forthright in what he’s doing. That has nothing to do with Deer, it has to do with Wakefield’s actual actions.
It’ll be interesting to watch this Dateline. Deer isn’t the problem although Wakefield puts his focus there. Thoughtful House of course is hoping this brings new light to Wakefield and his reputation. I’m not sure what “telling our story” will consist of, we’ll see if there is any owning up to the past. As a result of that 1998 study, measles has been high on out breaks in the UK. Wakefield had always stated thereafter he did not suggest not having the MMR, but to get it in 3 separate jabs. I’m hoping they address this issue. One would wonder what 3 separate jabs would prevent when his study really didn’t find the evidence of why measles was there to begin with.
Navi~ you really do not have to defend yourself to people who assume things about you and didn’t bother asking how you cam to the choice of vaccines. In your #2 post, I didn’t happen to see any where of which your child had vaccines to begin with. No child get’s 50 vaccines prior to the age of 7 and not every child ever is vaccine injured or has autism. Since there is no way to know at this time which child would be vaccine injured or have autism, it would be foolish to assume they would and base an important choice on that lack of evidence. Besides all of that, Wakefield’s theory was the MMR, not the whole of the recommended vaccine schedule.
Navi – Responding to your quote: “…is partially funded by a Dixie Chick. Who I’m guessing is yet another celebrity that cannot accept her kid’s autism could have been caused by a genetic problem”. So…one in 90 boys, and one in 120 girls have autism due to a genetic problem? How ridiculous does that sound? Also, Wakefield aside, until somone shows me otherwise, a “suggested link” is good enough for me to have my kids take caution when considering vaccines.
and these diseases only became deadly when the vaccines came out.. before they were considered benign..
comments like this make it really hard to defend “vaccine skeptics” as not being “anti-vaccine”.
Spreading obviously false and dangerous information–what label should be applied to someone who does that.
Irene is invited to read old newspapers and magazines (many are online) about outbreaks of these “benign” diseases.
As to Matt Lauer’s story, it appears that the Wakefield supporters are already unhappy with it. Even if this story is critical of Dr. Wakefield, I still expect it to increase his business.
As to Dr. Wakefield: his scientific efforts are poor (to say the least). The science was discussed at great length in the Autism Omnibus Proceeding (vaccine court). Those promoting the MMR-Causes-Autism idea just didn’t have a clear and consistent hypothesis, much less good data.
Dr. Wakefield has caused a lot of harm.
Sandy – I’m not sure any other journalist would have discovered the truth. In the UK immunization rates were going down the pan until Deer began his investigation. I think he only kept it going because Wakefield sued him over a TV show. So you can fairly assume that a big, big chunk of the research was done for a lawsuit. As I understand it, that is how Deer first read the children’s medical records. If Wakefield hadn’t sued, Deer wouldn’t have seen the medical records. Most likely, the world would never have known what was behind that 1998 paper.
I don’t know whether NBC will touch on any of that. It looks mighty complicated.
I think I read where Wakefield dropped that lawsuit. As I understand it, any one can maybe read those court records, the childrens names are listed as A, B and so on. I think the world would had eventually known once that study was published considering he didn’t have permission to do the study where he was employed with, and once any found out who funded the study. Not sure it would have taken a journalist to do that however the main stream public wouldn’t have had that info without a journalist. The only way the public is to be informed is by such journalists who take the time to inform us. The bottom line is some people didn’t want that truth to be told and how anyone can defend a retracted study is beyond me. That’s why I am interested to watch this. Don’t get me wrong, I have read over the years stuff written by Wakefield and Deer. Deer has nothing to gain although I have read that same old he’s in cohoots with the vaccine makers which is everyone’s answer to good reporting. Wakefield also recently violated some UK gag order as well by putting info on his Thoughtful House web site. I think it’s rather interesting Wakefield is doing this Dateline and I am thinking it wont have the outcome they are hoping for.
As for a suggested link, you want to know how many links there are out there? Vaccines isn’t the only ‘link’ and if we all avoided them, we might as well not have chldren at all. The thing with autism is, there is no blood test, no medical test confirming autism but the observation so those rates of autism can very well be way off in either direction. Suggested links can in fact harm children than help them avoid autism. What we really need is scientific proof, not some link, to help make good choices for families.
Anyone ever heard of an immune system?
Not sure what good Wakefield had thought this would help him. If anything, it gave the public the whole controversy surrounding him in a short 1 hour sitting. How about the family who went to Texas from Minnesota, paying out of pocket for the GI procedures? They could find no one in MN to do that same procedure. Well, I am from MN and my son had a Peds GI do the very same thing (yes, invasive and painful to the child), only insurance covered it. To say that no where in MN could they find the help that Wakefield provided is simply self-serving and grossly incorrect. It does give credibility the idea that parents go to where they hear what they want to hear, and Wakefield provides that only Wakefield is not licensed to practice in the USA, how interesting is that?
This Dateline did a very good coverage across the board, asking very good questions and the fact still remains, the MMR is not linked to autism. Wakefield himself says he does not know what causes autism.
I am not sure who has done more damage to the treatment of people with Autism– Andrew Wakefield or Jenny McArthy.
People wake up….. The best studies are done in smaller groups & it can grow. Dr Wakefield did not say, do not immunize your children, he said take precaustions and spread the immunizationtions out. It is a safety measure & my child is worth the safety, is yours not. I am the daughter of a pediatrician. My father said when selecting a pediatrician or a specialist for your child, select a doctor who will actually listen to a mother all the way to the smallest detail, no ,atter how trivial it may sound. That small detail may be more important than you know. Dr Wakefield dids just that, he listened to parents, when the regular doctors did not. To many Doctors usher you & your child in & out. Many Doctors & all pharmaceutical companies are after the $$$ & do not take the time or interests in your child. You have to have a child with major health issues to beging to understand. Why is it so abstract to believe that Dr. Wakefield, just might be on to something & further research is necessary. No one else is giving answers, only what it is not.
So you people are convinced that vaccines are 100% safe?
No vaccine is 100 percent safe and no vaccine ever was. I’m not sure why people always ask that as if there is some great big proof otherwise. If no one already knew no vaccine was 100 percent safe for al people, they should have.
I’m sure there’s plenty doctors out there that listened to the parents of children. I in fact had many listen to me and to accuse those doctors being after the $$$, and that only Wakefield listens, well Wakefield really really was after the $$$ and that’s why he did listen. That is still true today, as parents drive across the country for GI scope they paid for out of pocket. It is ridiculous to think no other doctor in this state would provide that same GI scope and also fnd the same results that Wakefield is claiming he’s finding. Since he’s the only one finding it, that along smells bad.
Further research is needed, but we already knew that prior to and after Wakefield.
Lots of words here today. Sandy you have stepped up to a soap box that does not help our children. We as I was told this week need to “Simmer Down Now” The Fact is for 66 years Autism has been a mystery. NOBODY has decent answers. Everybody has an agenda. Some for Money , Some for children, and many for themselves. Issues of Education, respect, rights, treatment, Respite, Divorce, & so much more, are more important than who did what when. Most parents will tell you they never heard of Dr. Wakefield until after they start questioning problems their child was facing. The Controversy was here before Wakefield & at current rate of action will be here long after. How much longer… Autism TannersDad Tim
Simmer down? Wakefield finally addresses issues on US TV, that’s big. It’s as big a part of the autism community as anything, why I’m not sure. Plenty other issues we face daily that Wakefield doesn’t ever address but I am sure that coverage is not going to get the results Thoughtful house was hoping for. Wakefield’s excuses for taking blood during a child’s birthday party should if anything, leave people questioning his procedures and just what is he doing these days. He made a joke and laughed as he said some kids threw up, some kids fainted. When he was asked about that, it was no big deal. Kind of hard to say he listens to parents when at kids birthday parties he’s jabbing kids with no concern to their reactions.
Offit is the author of the book “False Prophets”
That’s Autism’s False Prophets – an excellent ready, by the way.
I was talking about this issue to a well respected doctor in my area. He said something that I found interesting. “Of course it’s genetic”, I didn’t like that answer, I can’t see how something affecting so many children can be genetic. Then he explained, a hundred children could live in on a busy highway, breathe the fumes of smong, and one could get leukemia. What caused the leukemia? We can look at statistics and find that living on a busy street, breathing in fumes carries a risk much higher for a child on that street than one living in the suburbs. We can decide we don’t want to accept that risk and move to the suburbs, but we can’t say that the polution caused leukemia because the other 99 don’t have it. Something in that child’s genetic makeup made him more susceptible. This idea could go farther, why would a child with a cold get an ear infection, when a hundred others don’t? Genetic susecptibility. It would cover almost everything. This suggests to me that the pharmas “CAN’ hide behind genetic factors, and put their money there, all the while, we choose to live on that “busy” street knowing the statistics and take our chances. We don’t need studies to show us that children without vaccines are healthier, we only need visit some larger home school groups, to view their health and their general happiness. There isn’t add, or adhd, or pdd, or asd, it just isn’t there! Asthma is rare, as are speech delays. I’m not talking about the Amish, because arguments can be presented there, as to a different , more closely related, genetic background. Sadly, there will be measles, there may be polio, children will die. We are accepting that this can’t be fixed and many are backing the very people who are hiding the truth, by buying into their propaganda. I want a vaccine for my kids, a safe one, not one carrying baccillus, virus, bovine herpes, thimerosal, and on, and on. Profit pushes the danger to the top and we have no safety enforcement. When a company such as merck is allowed to announce a recall due to manufacturing problems, and we find out it was a dangerous contaminant, we should close them down, not wait until they do it again. ( hib and baccilus cerrius as example)
Great post Barbara J – you captured my sentiments exactly.
barbaraj~ besides the doctor you talked to, what did you think about last nights Dateline?
The question might be, do you change the genetic susceptibility, or the potential number of various triggers surrounding us daily? And due to the genetic susceptibility, couldn’t those triggers be ever changing??
Answers are not as easy as pushing blame off on profit.
Sadly, there will be measles, there may be polio, children will die. We are accepting that this can’t be fixed ..
What are you trying to say, bj? That polio and measles can’t be prevented with vaccines? Tell me you’re not that unhinged.
I was very disappointed in Dateline last night. It was obvious the “reporter” was trying to show that those who suspect vaccines are wrong. That either the doctors are quacks or the parents are not educated in “real science” to be right.
To come out at the end and claims that vaccines don’t I felt was misleading. Where is the evidence of this? Sure, there is no specific evidence (other than anecdotal) that vaccines cause autism, but there is no clear cut study to disprove it either. So how can that claim be made?
Doctor’s and meds companies are afraid of law suits, so they just want to say there’s not evidence and everyone who suspects vaccines therefore is wrong.
Clearly Dr. W said that the medical community should examine vaccines more, but he never said not to take them, just to consider spreading them out. I heard that, so why didn’t the reporter or producers of the show?
It was also a shame that more information was not provided about the gastro issues. The parents of the little boy they showed said they had seen improvement, but the reporter never provided details about this.
Big thumbs down to Matt L and dateline in general!
When they use words like..anti vaccine “movement”, they negate all of the ideas of people that experienced a cause and effect in their children. I didn’t expect better, Lauer is a bit of a lightweight, and as Robert Kennedy said, you can put together all of the facts and they wind up on the editting floor. One thing , in reading today, I found interesting is that some feel “kawasaki” is related to autism? I am lost on that, does anyone know what they are talking about? My daughter had ks when she was 2 1/2, KS is the leading cause of aquired heart disease in children , it’s a nasty disease, but I’ve never heard it in this context before. I do know that it’s been associated with several vaccines, forcing one ,the roto I believe , to carry a warning, however it’s been reported with several others, prevnar and hepb. My daughter got KS ten days after her MMR. The woman who was in the same practice, her son, who had his shot that same day, was back in with me on day ten, as well. Her son had Idiopathic thrombocytopenia, we shared visits for months. My daughter had red rash and swollen hands and feet with lymphadenopathy, her son had huge bruises all over him. We “knew” but it was never reported for either of us. If it’s true that KS is caused by vaccines, it surely isn’t the particular virus, it would have to be a contaminant, a adjuvant, or a preservative. ( I would think)
Should we count this disease one that has taken over rheumatic fever in causing heart disease in children as yet another “acceptable” side effect from vaccines.
barbaraj~ It’s interesting since no one knows the causes of Kawasaki disease that it’d be listed as a warning on any vaccine. Read up on it but since your daughter has had it, you should be aware of what it is. It’s not at all related to autism, other than The Travolta’s. Your kids sure have had many disorders but that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, the MMR and autism.
Dateline actually produced many studies to counter Wakefield’s and that vaccines do not cause autism let alone the MMR. So to the question where is the proof either way, depends one which studies one finds more credible. Wakefield way back when never did say the MMR caused autism or to stop vaccines. What happened is of course the public heard only the parts it wanted to hear and re-wrote Wakefield’s intent, vaccines are bad and reject them. There after, Wakefield fed into that frenzy and is making money off it too. He is the start of the vaccine controversy, make no mistake. Since doctors (Wakefield is a doctor who tried to paten a measles vaccine) and Pharm companies are only in it for the money, they’re rich and a lawsuit wouldn’t scare them in the least. They’re the ones who can afford it. The truth wouldn’t scare them. We also can not forget the vaccine Wakefield wanted to create, prior to the release of his study. Right there was enough for me of his own financial intent and gain, of a vaccine at that. So he’s right on up there with that Big Bad Pharma.
Dateline tackled some pretty valid issues surrounding Wakefield and the UK and it was good to see any reporter wanting to tackle that and not back away. People should be careful of what facts hit that editing floor, not too many hit the floor at all.
Sandy, Robert Kennedy Jr. went in to many an interview, well prepared and “yes” his documented information hit that “editing floor”. I do believe there were people in line wanting to share their stories from the Wakefield end and weren’t included. Then there is motive. Why , when in the midst of an upcoming swine flu pandemic, when we are to be accepting of thimerosal once again, why did this program air.
Yes, the first mention I’d heard of ks and asd was with the Travolta child. I just thought, hmm, they must be mistaken, now I’m not so certain. Initially I suspected the mmr, then later was pointed toward rug shampoo, pesticides, etc. Now I wonder what could be in those vaccines that could cause it. When I mentioned, baccilus cerius earlier, a bell went off, KS which has been determined to be a disease that seems to have a genetic component, as it affects many more Asians, may not. That contaminant in Merck’s HIB vaccine is most often a food poisoining found on rice. Could something be so simple and overlooked? Where is the curiosity of the scientists, are they all just waiting for funding, and no one will fund proper studies? and…yes Sandy I was SURPRISED to see a connection between vaccine and Kawasaki. I don’t believe the Travolta’s ever mentioned any involvement with vaccines I remember only their belief on a ks/autism connection.
Actually, the Travolta’s never ever said anything about autism other than their son never had autism. I’m pretty sure that if you had a vaccine with a contaminant you’d end up with a little more than just autism. That swine flu vaccine Will come thimerosal free for kids, so the motive og thimerosal is not valid. Adult flu vaccines always has had Thimerosal in them. That is not the motive.
Thimeroal was never part of Wakefield’s theory anyway.
When they use words like..anti vaccine “movement”, they negate all of the ideas of people that experienced a cause and effect in their children.
Without confirmation we can only say those people believe they experienced cause and effect. My daughter showed signs of peristalsis only hours after her last vaccine. But she showed that after all the other vaccines as well, so I’m worried.
I believe there is motive Sandy, it seems over the last month or so they’ve dusted off a few old “studies” and presented them as “new information”. When this kind of thing happens it makes me think..”yep motive”.
RGreen, I hope your little girl is okay, odds are she is. I’ve never seen a child NOT react to a shot and yet thankfully most are okay.
SFM thanks!
ANB..I hope I’m not “unhinged”.
Sandy I heard Kelly Preston was going to hold a conference and tell about her son’s autism. It didn’t happen so, I’m guessing she changed her mind?
If anything this show and the growing concern with vaccine damage should be forcing parents to pay more attention. I am really alarmed at the lack of adequate safety data for the long term effects of each vaccine, including the effects of multiple vaccines at the same time. Shouldn’t it be on the drug companies to prove long term safety and show the benefit analyses for their vaccines? Especially when in reality multiple vaccines are the norm and long term chronic diseases are starting to be too. I don’t think Wakefield or Deer have given us any real answers, but have disturbingly exposed the issues of suppressing/misrepresenting research data or potentially adverse effects associated with a drug or vaccine. Families need to have confidence that the vaccines their children take are safe, effective, and very necessary. Permitting vaccine studies to claim results after only a few weeks or months is a complete disservice to the public and should not be allowed. And judging from conversations with my pediatrician, doctors also need to feel confident that when the FDA licenses a drug, that its really safe and the pharmaceutical industry has not influenced the decision making process.
While true causality has not been proven, in the absence of thorough investigations it would be unwise to interpret the temporal relationships parents observe in their children as mere coincidence.
I need help. An uncle of mine has been evicted from his home. He has lived a seriously hard life and I will try my best to begin in the right place.
Back in the late 70’s his family (wife and three small little girls ages 7, 5, & 3) were on their way to pick up “daddy” from work. A drunk Sailor coming off a flight from a neighboring city got into a rent-a-car, driving down the high way smashed right into my aunt’s car and the car flew! That same day my aunt and one of her daughters died at the hospital. The next day, the other two girls died. Almost 10 years later, my uncle still not fully recovering from the TRAGIC incident meets his current wife and they have several children. Their first born (together) was born with Autism. Back in the early 80’s no one new about Autism so my aunt thought her daughter was somehow possessed or retarded of some sort. Only until another 5 – 7 years did they move to the U.S. Mainland where they knew there was assistance for helping children with special needs. My uncle has been the only provider for his family. My aunt has never had to work in her life because she needed to stay home and watch their daughter who has a sever case of autism. He’s worked for the airlines for over 20 years but was furloughed. He worked at FedEx but i believe he got furloughed there as well. He’s already in his late 50’s almost 60, I believe. He’s been calling my Mother day after day begging for helping in trying to sell his property so that he could feed his family or something. They’ve been evicted from their home and I know they need to have a stable life for their 20+ year old Austistic child.
What should I do? How can I help?
They’ve never given up on each other, nor have they ever given up on their child with special needs. They’ve struggled to make many ends meet and now I’d like to help them but don’t know where to turn?
Please help.
~Tammy
Those studies were never presented as new studies. They were presented as studies that provided opposite info than what Wakefield had. The topic to begin with was an old controversy of a 1998 study, so of course they’d offer the studies thereafter. There doesn’t need to be any new studies to discredit Wakefield’s, those studies are already there. But I can easily see why you minimize their importance in order to find motive. If any want to see motive, read the letter from Thoughtful House prior to the airing of this show. You sure have a lot of motives, the swine flu vaccine with Thimerosal and then it changes to old studies once it’s known those vaccines will come without Thimerosal. The plain truth is, it was about time Wakefield did speak out publicly of the controversy he started without merit. Prior to now, he refused. If there is motive, it’s his timing that people should question as to why now of all these years did he choose to speak.
As for Kelly Preston, she was planning on talking about the seizures and death of her son but canceled stating it’s too early and painful. Only speculation of others is saying it was suppose to be about autism, of which that family still denies there son ever had. I tend to believe what these parents say about heir own son than what others try to inject.
As for safe vaccines or drugs, there will never be a completely safe medication for all people. People should have always known the side effects of vaccines, those have always been then prior to the autism theory and in fact, most of the majority of the concern over vaccines is autism and none of the already known side effects. It is interesting over the tons of years vaccines have been in use, only now there is autism.
There doesn’t need to be any new studies to discredit Wakefield’s, those studies are already there.
Dr. Mady Horning’s Sept., 2008 study was the most damning critique of Wakefield’s 1998 paper. She replicated Wakefield’s study in three different locations, including the same lab where Wakefield did his work. No evidence found of measles in the gut.
Hornig, of Columbia Univ., was author of the notorious 2004 “Rain Mouse” paper that anti-vacccine advocates claim proved that thimerosal caused autistic symptoms in mice. The paper came to no such conclusion.
Tammy, if it were me ,I’d bypass the local town family services and go directly to my congressman, they are politically motivated to help people during this current recession. They would have access to legal means to place the family .
autismnewsbeat~ I’m not even going there with Thimerosal, that wasn’t Wakefield’s theory at all and the idea of Thimerosal only came up once those studies did disprove Wakefield’s and even then, Thimerosal has had many studies to disprove that theory and that’s where all the other additives with in the vaccines are now being picked apart. I’m sure you remember it first started with the MMR, then oops, that cant be it so let’s look at Thimerosal then oops that cant be it so lets look at the aluminum salts and anti freeze in them…. pretty soon nothing will be left to look at but the saline.
Wakefield’s study was solely based on the MMR, no other vaccine or combination there prior or after, and particular to the measles portion of that vaccine. That’s what the topic of Wakefield is all about, not Thimerosal, the swine flu vaccine or Kawasaki disease. Wakefield has offered nothing toawrds those topics at all and in fact was never part of autism research prior to those parents of that one study.
@Sandy- Thimerosal has had many studies to disprove that theory and that’s where all the other additives with in the vaccines are now being picked apart. I’m sure you remember it first started with the MMR, then oops, that cant be it so let’s look at Thimerosal then oops that cant be it so lets look at the aluminum salts and anti freeze in them…. pretty soon nothing will be left to look at but the saline.
Are you trying to say that Thimerosal has been found safe?
Navi From what I’ve read it’s can be either, genetic or aquired, and it has been connected to autism, however, I am guessing the authors are not acceptable.
http://www.autism.com/ari/newsletter/201/page4.pdf
concernedParent~ I don’t believe I said Thimerosal was safe. In relation to autism is what I was speaking about.
Lactose intolerance is not what Wakefield is saying he found. Untreated, I suppose you would have GI issues.
Ok, but I think the relation to autism has been answered in the somewhat recent (9 November 2007) finding
for the plaintiffs in Poling v. Sec. HHS, a “Thimerosal causes
autism” test case in Omnibus Autism Proceeding (OAP), even
the federal government has conceded that Thimerosal in vaccines may be a causal factor for an autism spectrum disorder.
concede |kənˈsēd|
verb
1. admit that something is true or valid after first denying or resisting it
The root of the problem is the words used to describe the
risks and the benefits. The risks are typically presented as “theoretical” when, in fact, they are real. Similarly, the benefits are inflated and presented as “real” when, in fact, they are what are theoretical. Until a person is exposed to the microbe that causes the disease for which he or she is vaccinated, there is no benefit to vaccination against that agent.
Again, shouldn’t it be on the drug companies to prove the long term safety and benefit for their vaccines?
Funny you mention the Poling case. The Poling child ‘missed’ most of her scheduled vaccines due to being sick all the time (she wasn’t healthy to begin with) and the doctor seen fit to overload her with a ton of catch-up vaccines in one sitting and her parents allowed this. Had that been me, I’d have taken my child right out the door. This is where parents need information, start questioning bad doctors trying to over inject your child. The vaccines are not to blame for the Poling child, the doctor is for thinking it would be ok. The vaccines Poling had that day were unlike any other parent who claimed autism- vaccines, since most kids do not get that many catch-up vaccines in one office visit plus she also had a genetic (from her mother) disorder which played a large role and those vaccines made ‘that’ disorder worsen. Unless every other vaccine autism case has that same genetic disorder, missed a ton of scheduled vaccines and then was injected with a ton on one day, that is the Poling case and can not be compared to any other vaccine injury case. The only thing the public can learn from that case is to RUN (sorry for the caps but it was needed) when a doc comes at your kid with that many jabs. Any child with that many jabs in one day would be vaccine injured and that doctor should had been sued.
This however still has nothing to do with Wakefield and the MMR. Thimerosal was never in the MMR and that was not part of Wakefield’s theory. Adding to his theory only serves to confuse the public as to what his study was all about.
Doesn’t it seem that we are in no way protected by anyone in our health care system? If we are mutilated, harmed, made ill , or killed do they fix it? No! Do they admit to harm. NO! We have to use the court system to force an admission of medical errors, medical misrepresentations, drug effects, appliance failures, etc.. Was our court system designed to police the entire health/drug industry? No, however , it seems they are in that position. They probably will have the last word on this issue.
It could be some tricky wording..thimerosal only needs to be labeled if it’s considered the preservative. If it’s part of the manufacturing process, diluted over that process, and not the “preservative” it will NOT appear on the label. I just read this on the CDC site!
We do NOT know what vaccines contained thimerosal and unless a court forces disclosures, we never will.
It’s well known, the MMR never ever contained Thimerosal or any other of the likes. It never needed it. Not all vaccines even ever had thimerosal. Yes, we do know what vaccines did and do contain Thimerosal and to suggest otherwise is then just something you yourself have not researched. That diluting process is refering to the removal process and as of the year 2002 when at that time, only trace amounts were in childhood vaccines that once did contain Thimerosal. Everyone should also know which vaccines do contain that trace amount.
Again, this however still has nothing to do with Wakefield and the MMR. Thimerosal was never in the MMR and that was not part of Wakefield’s theory, at all. Only the measles was part of his theory, not the mumps or rubella. Adding to his theory only serves to confuse the public as to what his study was all about.
I would beg to differ on what role the “underlying mitochondrial disorder” had to do with her final condition. If you think it had nothing to do with mercury poisoning by mercury/Thimerosal, you only need to consult a few of the papers linking Thimerosal to the poisoning of mitochondrial pathways….
Int J Mol Med. 2005 Dec; 16(6):971–7
Neurotoxicology 2005 Jun; 26(3):407–16
Pflugers Arch. 1993 Sep; 424(5-6):516–22
That is not to say that it wasn’t at least partially ignorance from the parents in allowing that many vaccines to be administered. Like you said “Any child with that many jabs in one day would be vaccine injured and that doctor should had been sued.”
Precisely! However, if you consult the CDC’s Catch-up Immunization Schedule there is no visible warning that multiple vaccines can be dangerous. To date I have not seen any safety information that mentions or indicates the compound effects that multiple vaccines may present.
Even government officials have agreed that the amount of mercury in a 0.25-mL dose of a Thimerosal-
preserved vaccine (delivering 12.5 micrograms of mercury) exceeds the EPA’s recommended daily ingestion intake maximum (0.1 microgram of mercury per kilogram of body weight) unless the baby receiving this dose weighs more than 125 kilograms (275.6 lbs) or, for children receiving a 0.5-mL dose of such vaccines, 250 kilograms (551 lbs).
And YES, I think it has everything to do with Wakefield’s initial study and recommendation of separating the MMR into the individual vaccines.
The chief factors that are undermining the public’s confidence in the current vaccination program are the growing number of vaccine-damaged children and the articles, which continually misrepresent Thimerosal’s proven toxicity and/or its continuing presence in U.S. vaccines. Just like barbaraj just found out, it is still in there, just worded a little differently.
The main case of the Poling was Thimerosal. I have never read where that girl suffered any GI isues, either. Thimerosal was was in no part part of Wakefield’s study at all, even though he suggested separate jabs. Since Wakefield’s study only focused on the measles part of that MMR, his study further then failed to show why separating them would do any good at all. Because it’s focus was the measles and GI, one would then assume no mealses vaccine at all would be the suggestion, yet that cant be it since Wakefield was planning to produce his own mealses vaccine. Wakefield’s study in no way lended a hand in the Poling case, either.
“Trace amount” means too small to measure, but vaccine makers assume some thimerosal is present from the manufacturing process. There is more methyl mercury in a tuna fish sandwich than there is ethyl mercury in the entire pediatric schedule. And ethyl clears the body faster than methyl.
The inference of “trace amount” imo, doesn’t mean that it’s not measurable,it’s just not in a concentration large enogh to be considered as an active ingredient. An example of this is found in pesticides, although ddt has been banned in the US for many years, products have been found to be almost 15 % ddt, it doesn’t require labeling becaause it’s not enough to be considered an active ingredient. Thimerosal would be the same, at low levels it wouldn’t be in a high enough quantity to serve as the preservative so it doesn’t have to be listed as an ingredient or put on the label.
Then we can open up the subject of quality control, which “could” lead us to “hot lots”, and we don’t have anyone going back in to test the contents of these jabs to measure or find contaminants.
@ANB “Trace amount” means too small to measure, but vaccine makers assume some thimerosal is present from the manufacturing process.
No safe dose has been established by any agency or published toxicological study for the level of Thimerosal that is safe to inject into a developing child.
And doses are directly injected into the child in a manner that bypasses the mercury-sequestering compounds found in the gut that reduce the absorption of ingested mercury by the body. Like saying eating dirt won’t kill you, but shooting it into your veins would certainly end a little differently.
Science already knows how long it takes for ethyl mercury to clear the body after vaccines. If for some children that does not happen, they’d then need to focus on why however since 2002, compared to the full amounts of Thimerosal to the trace amounts which greatly reduced exposure, autism rates remain to climb. We also have to remember how long Thimerosal has been in vaccines, we’re talking 70 some years so the idea of no safe dose has been established, considering autism only, yes it has been established. This of course only holds true to the autism rates limited to soaring only in the 1990’s and there on up, excluding any misdiagnosis in the past 70 years and assuming autism wasn’t present among the population.
Even then, mercury poisoning is not the same thing as autism however they share many of the same symptom’s. Lead poisoning also shares the same, but it is not autism.
There are a few running vaccine theories, and it’s tough to combine them all into one topic since they’re all separate theories, none of which can compare to the other’s. Once 2002 came around and then the next year and then the next year, even Kirby himself had to rethink these vaccine theories and that’s where aluminum salts was ‘born’ to replace the Thimerosal. Each day it’s something new about the vaccines.
Autism is a disorder that is diagnosed by a defined set of symptoms and behaviors that are known to have multiple causes, some of which are known (like poisoning by heavy metals such as lead and mercury). In general there are two recognized types congenital and regressive…
@Sandy We also have to remember how long Thimerosal has been in vaccines, we’re talking 70 some years so the idea of no safe dose has been established, considering autism only, yes it has been established. It has been used since the 30s but we DONT know the effects of ethylmercury. The studies have not been done! We have been relying on studies for methylmercury, whose major source is seafood. The is very little if any pharmacokinetic data on ethylmercury, and sparse toxicity or excretion data. Yet it has been recognized to cause hypersensitivity, neurological problems, and even death. Based on this realization, the PHS and AAP in 1999 made the recommendation to remove Thimerasol. Which is a misnomer being nothing was removed, they just agreed to stop adding it to future vaccines once they had used up existing stocks, which entailed millions of doses. The truth is that we STILL know almost nothing about this toxin. To account for uncertainties in data the FDA uses a 100 fold margin of safety, but in a population of hundreds of millions, it is not really a safe margin.
Autism is a disorder that is diagnosed by a defined set of symptoms and behaviors that are “Unknown” to have multiple causes, or there wouldn’t be the debate. No one yet today knows the causes of autism. Almost any autism site online or Autism Society of any state says “causes unknown”. Lead and mercury poisoning is just that, it is not autism and any medical person will say the same. There is a recognized cause of assault. With autism, there is no such recognition other than the recent gene finding.
The recommendation to remove Thimerasol was not based on hypersensitivity, neurological problems, and even death. That is injection from certain groups of people. It was based on pure pubic pressure about autism from that same group of people, shortly after the MMR study was debunked and the idea it was Thimerosal was born. That stock expired in 2002, that’s why that date is so important. No one in the world knows of each clinic, who had what stock and who had newer vaccines, so that year is very important. Yes, vaccines lots are kept track of, you can look up your own child’s but that year was the known year any on a shelf expired, which was far easier than counting stock on a shelf. ‘They just agreed to stop adding it to future vaccines ‘once they had used up existing stocks’. If that were true then there’d be a span of no vaccines. The process began in 1999 and everyone then after waited for the CA study to be released, and here it be:
Autism: Removing Thimerosal From Vaccines Did Not Reduce Autism Cases In California, Report Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080107181551.htm
The real question is, other than show it is safe, is show that it isn’t or that it had anything at all to do with autism. I’m not saying it does or doesn’t, although it didn’t for my child who has autism. I am saying today, you nor I have those answers and neither did or does Wakefield.
Maintaining the highest level of integrity over vaccine development and implementation is crucial to its success. People need to have trust in the system.
It is entirely possible that the immune systems of a small minority simply cannot cope with the challenges encountered naturally (genetics) along with the ever increasing vaccine loads. The pharmaceutical companies owe the public PROOF that these issues have been looked at and studied thoroughly along with accurate reports of toxicity, synergy and associated risks.
While I do not condone the methods of Wakefield or Deer, (they are both liars) we need more discussions on this topic, and each has shown the dangers of leaning too far one way or the other.
The fact that remains is that many of the additives used in vaccines are highly toxic teratogens, mutagens, carcinogens, and immune system disruptors that have not been proven safe to the applicable federal minimum standards.
If Wakefield has taught us anything, it would be that thesuggestion of something does not prove it so.
To many, vaccines are safe and the proof is the number of years they’ve been in use and that they have prevented many deadly diseases. Vaccines are not safe for all people and there always has been risk factors known about vaccines so there already is some of that validation but it may be entirely impossible to know which it would be unsafe for, and more so depending on what we’re talking about; autism or already known factors about vaccines. Many of the additives used in vaccines have always been in vaccines as well. The fact still remains that there is vaccine choice, and no one needed anyone to realize this. The success of any vaccine program is a personal choice but if any are looking for a perfect vaccine, it would be impossible.
The interesting thing is that the known risk factors of vaccines are not rising in numbers. Only autism is rising. That alone tells me many are looking for answers in the wrong place.
While I do not condone the methods of Wakefield or Deer, (they are both liars)…
What evidence can you share that Deer is a liar?
As always, the messenger is attacked by those with nothing better. Here is what Brian Deer has said about Andrew Wakefield. If he is a liar, then somebody should set out the evidence. He has at his website
http://briandeer.com/solved/story-highlights.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/32659631#32584905
I think she is speaking the truth, let’s advance science to the point where this “subset” can be identified. It’s terrific that most children benefit from vaccination, but it’s horrific what is happening to the others.
First, that subset has to be identified, not just suspected. I think a dead child is more horrific than autism is. Bernadine Healy has much to say but then so does everyone else. Considering her medical professional back ground, one would think she’d have more to offer than just a bunch of words already said but then I’m not sure where a cardiologist fits into the autism realm to begin with. It’s nice she brouht up how and why Thimerosal was removed, but sadly blamed science for not working together to find that subset when autism still is being diagnosed.
Healy speculates that vaccines may cause autism in a subset of children that is too small to detect in large population studies. Does this mean she doesn’t believe in the “autism epidemic”, as it is characterized by Generation Rescue and other anti-vaccine interest groups? It sure sounds like it.
That is what she said, too, subset. That’s kind of what Wakefield said too, a small amount (12 to be exact). A subset is not an epidemic and it would seem nearly impossible to find if you couldn’t find it in a large population study, which would be the best chance. There’d even be less chance in a smaller study. All she had was double-talk and although she makes for good listening, but hearing just what she is saying makes no sense at all.
Hi! Sandy, can we mud wrestle over this? I’m going to expand your brain sister….are you ready? There is proof out there that vaccinations cause Autism. Dr. Andrew Moulden has irrefutable proof that vaccinations are causing Autism. To keep it very simple…directly injecting a vaccination into the muscle, bypasses the bodies normal immune response. A “hyper immune” response results. This hyper response produces too many white blood cells, and they “thicken” or slow down the flow of the red/oxygenated blood cells from reaching all of the most tiny and neccesary capillaries througout the body. If oxygenated blood is not being delivered to living tissue, the tissue will die. This is an Ischemic Stroke. After vaccinations, he can prove that babies, teens and adults are stroking as a result of the shots. These strokes can be measured on the changes affecting specific facial features. Eye movement changes, eye blinking becomes out of sync, nasal fold asymmetry occurs, and mouth drooping. The only thing responsible for controlling these movements in the face are very specific cranial nerves. If blood flow is stopped, and stokes occur to this part of the brain, the changes can be measured, proven, and he has done this. I encourage you to go to his website: http://www.brainguardmd.com and research his findings for yourself. Some babies bounce back from initial strokes, and are pushed over the edge by repetitive stokes from repeat vaccinations. Other babies die in there sleep when the lack of oxygenated blood is cut off from the brainstem, which is the area responsible for our respiratory functions…i.e.
SIDS. Teen girls have been stroking, being damaged, and dying from Gardasil vaccinations. Were you aware, that there have been 47 deaths from Gardasil vaccinations? Our Gulf War Vets are returning home with a host of neurlogical problems, and other illnesses due to Anthrax vaccinations. Dr. Moulden has documented stroking in all of these individuals, regardless of age. If the proof is there that vaccinations are causing strokes, death to living tissue, don’t you think we have cause to stop them? I’m curious, where do your facts come from concerning how vaccines have save the world from horrific diseases? Allow me to turn the light on. Vaccines have never stopped disease. The U.S. implemented mass vaccinations in the 1950s and Europe did not. The same diseases we were so concerned about went away at the exact same time here as they did in Europe. Now how could that be??? Answer: Improved living conditions, clean water supply, improved garbage removal, better food handling and preparation. The USDE, United States Dept. of Educ., provided a study of documented Autism cases from 1991&1992 compared to 2001&2002. There were only 5,315 cases of Autism reported during 1991-1992, while there were 4,499,924 cases of “all other disabilities” reported. In 2001-2002, there were 97,847 cases of reported Autism, and 5,853,830 cases of all other disabilities reported. The false argument all vaccine “lovers” like to say is that, “Autism isn’t on the rise, we’ve just gotten better at diagnosing it.” If that was true, how could there be a 1,700% increase in Autism in 2001-2002? If we were just better at diagnosing the illness, wouldn’t all “other disabilities” have gone down accordingly to the drastic rise in Autistic cases? They didn’t did they? Other disabilities climbed as well. The drastic, 1,700% increase in Autism in 2001-2002, is directly related to the rapid increase in vaccinations given at a very young age. In 1980, there were 8 vaccinations given. The vaccinations increased to 22 by the year 2000. Why you ask? $$$$$ Our Fed. Govt. established goals in the 70’s -80’s to increase “herd” immunity. They implemented vaccine initiatives, which included offering federal grants to states and encouraging strict enforcement or state mandates for forced vaccinations. The majority of all vaccinations are administered before the age of 18 months! You may be asking, why haven’t I heard this stuff before? Big Pharma controls what is written in our medical journals. Big Pharma controls our Congress 80-1 with their lobbyists. Money is making this nightmare go unchecked. What could possibly be the reason to give a newborn a Hep B vaccination? Do they actually think our newborn will be sexually active or into drug use during the first 7 yrs of it’s life? Wake up, Y’all…there is no more debating to be done. The proof is out there. Do the research yourselves. “When a man is honest and hears the truth he either embraces the truth or ceases to be honest.” On that note: be honest and save lives.
tripmilf43 ~ I’ll pass on the mud wrestling, and I’ll pass on the non-buttoned up shirt, looking like an ad for eharmony Dr. Moulden who’s lastest claim is how aluminum is more dangerous than mercury as a cause of autism and how more aluminum has been added to the vaccines as mercury has been lessened. That alone is false so it seems the doctor isn’t very well imformed about vaccines. I’m not really sure he knows what causes autism, either. A stroke is a stroke, (or as he calls it blood sludging) not autism and it’s odd you only hear about this doctor on line in blogs such as this. If you want to believe improved living conditions, clean water supply, improved garbage removal, better food handling and preparation is why deadly diseases ended, so be it. I don’t research my info at the same places you do obviously but I wont be rude to you nor disrespectful as you have been to me. There are far better ways to disagree with people than you have displayed.
Also, there is no such thing as state mandates for ‘forced’ vaccinations. As long as false comments as such are made, there will always be people there to tell the truth. No one goes to jail if they do not vaccinate their child. The vaccine schedule right on it states “recommended”. My new born never had the Hep B at birth and if yours did, then you didn’t research your choices. You also must not have researched the ages of when children were dying once contracting childhood diseases to know why those vaccines are given at the ages they are. Go take a look at SD famous cemetery and head for the childen’s section. No need for web-reading, a visual as that really hits home to the reality for those families prior to vaccines.
Maybe the famous Plague (1348–1350) is responsible for dirty living, however most childhood diseases if not all are airborne. It would matter how clean your living conditions or garbage pick-up, if that were all true there wouldn’t be the common cold today, which is also airborne. In the UK today with very very modern living conditions is having major outbreaks of the Measles consisting of a few deaths. How about the H1N1 flu? Is living conditions responsible for the spread of that? Thinking contracting something can be solely prevented by improved living conditions, clean water supply, improved garbage removal, better food handling and preparation. That idea leaves many at risk.
Wow, all fired up aren’t you? That’s good, now maybe you will be able to direct that passion towards completing your research of the facts. Question…I uderstand why the Paul Offits, Big Pharma and a majority of our Govt. backs vaccines, but what exactly is your motivation? I am no spoke person for Dr. Moulden, but I am an intelligent mother of triplets who decided to put my ego on the shelf, long enough to find out all I could about vaccine safety before “going with the flow.” That brings me back to my former question, “What is your motivation for so venomently defending vaccines?” What proof can you provide me that they have done anything to lesson disease? Do you know all of the other ingredients in vaccinations? If you really had taken the time to review Dr. Moulden’s findings, you would not make comments that he believes Aluminum is more dangerous than Thirmosal. Thirmosal is far more dangerous, but he clearly explains why Aluminum and other heavy metals can interrupt the fluidity of our blood, leading to strokes. The human body is mostly water, agreed? The human body has positive an negative charges to its fluidity. Too many heavy metals, from direct injections will have devastating effects on those whose bodies respond with super sensitivity or a “hyper-immune” response as discussed previously. Now, you ignorantly poo poo the connection between strokes and Autism. What do you think Autism is? Autism is a spectrum disease affecting numerous areas in the body. Neurological damage can result in speech impairment, poor motor skills, bowel problems, food sensitivities…the list goes on and on. There is no such thing as a “Genetic Epedemic,” but we do have a huge epedemic in relation to Autism & it’s spectrum disorders. A 1,700% increase in Autism from 1991/1992 to 2001/2002? This study wasn’t done by tree huggers, or us “rebels,” it was published by the U.S. Departmet of Education. Now wouldn’t a 1,700% increase in anything negative require a bit more study? If vaccines are safe, what about the problems directly related to the Gardasil vaccines in teenage girls and the military following Anthrax vaccines? Ironically, Dr. Moulden’s work proves that vaccinations are having the same effect now, as the actual “wild” virus had on polio victims, German Measle, and Rubella victims earlier in our history. He can show the same stroke like systems in these people. This is very important! It’s the individual’s response to a foreign pathogen that causes the problem. Unfortunately, direct injection of these pathogens, “watered down” with other problematic additives results in a greater number of individuals suffering strokes/death to living tissue that would not have reacted to the “wild” form of the virus when exposed normally. I hope you get the time to “really” study this issue further. It will require a bit more flexibility in your thinking than demonstrated to date. Good luck, I hope you see the truth…it’s right in front of you!
Yes, living conditions may perpetuate the flu, however, testing vaccines with novel viruses may , as well. I don’t trust anymore.
There is evidence of exactly what tripmilf is suggesting with Kawasaki Syndrome, the platelets are sticky, the damage is coronary..it fits in with “the sludge”.. young girls dying from blood clots..another coincidence? the small strokes make sense….good logical sense..is there no longer value to logic when forming hypothesis ..what step is our “new” science lacking? I’m betting it’s designed, designed studies with effort to fit all facts into a preconceived conclusion..the funding of most surely suggests just this!
tripmilf43~ I have no motivation but it’s clear you do. If there was any proof towards autism and vaccines, we’d all know this and so would CNN, not just some web site. We’re not talking evidence, we’re talking proof, and so far no one has this, not Wakefield, not Moulden and not you.
One day I hope you also get the answers you’re looking for but learn how to be respectful to others, and no, you didn’t fire me up. You have your hero’s and beliefs, I have mine. The truth may be right in front of you as well.
Dr. Andrew Moulden has never published any of his work, is that not odd. In order to read any on his site, you have to become a member and wouldn’t you know it, he sells books and DVD’s of his too all based on some unpublished study. This hypotheses doesn’t account for ADHD, ADD, SIDS, asthma, allergies, GI issues…. and I might add strokes can be seen on an MRI. Once there is a stroke that part of the brain, that spot will always show up on an MRI. My husband had a stroke at one point in his life and he never knew it, showed up on the MRI too and that’s how he found out he’s had a stroke. Of all the theories out there bout autism, most you can look right up however this one you cant, and this one seems for far fteched than them all. An unpublished studies suggests alot!
But again, Moulden has nothing to do with Wakefield’s hypotheses debunked study.
Milfy, you are mistaken on several key points. First, vaccines contain aluminum salts, not aluminum. I’m sure the significance escapes you. Elements take on different properties when combined with other elements. Elemental chlorine, for instance, is a lethal gas, but when combined with sodium it becomes something you sprinkle on french fries. The aluminum salt found in vaccines is either quickly excreted, or bound in muscle tissue. Infant formula and breast milk, on the other hand, both contain elemental aluminum. So does everything else on the planet – Al is the most abundant metal, and third most common element.
There are no good data indicating an autism epidemic. Your DOE figures come from administrative data, which are notoriously unreliable for determining incidence. Besides that, the DOE’s 1991 data do not include Asperger’s Syndrome, which was only recognized by the DSM in 1994. There is also ample evidence that cases of MR declined throughout the 90s as PDDs rose. Meanwhile, the IDEA caseload for all childhood disabilities has remained flat since at least the mid-90s. I’m sure you have an explanation for that.
Regarding Gardasil, the CDC lists 19 confirmed deaths between June, 2006 and Dec., 2008, that occurred within 200 days of the shot. I know this sounds alarming, but the fact is young girls occasionally died of blood clots, strokes, heart attacks, respiratory failure and other “natural causes” before Gardasil went on the market. The US mortality rate for teenage girls in 2007-2008 does not relect any added deaths from the 22 million doses. Correlation is not a synonym for causation. People also die within 200 days of watching America’s Got Talent, but I wouldn’t be too quick to blame David Hasselhof. He has enough to answer for already.
Secondly, Dr. Moulden who’s lastest claim is how aluminum is more dangerous than mercury as a cause of autism and how more aluminum has been added to the vaccines as mercury has been lessened.- Aluminum salts have been in vaccines longer than Thimerosal ever was, 1920, and the amount has never increased nor is it in every vaccine, either. That data is there for any one to view.
Do not assume I am defending vaccines, all I am doing is pointing out the mis-information that can clearly be known by anyone, and should be prior to making an informed decision. Noone should make a decision off from Wakefield or this Moulden.
As for America’s Got Talent, I fell asleep during it. I do blame David Hasselhof hehehe
ANB you suggest tripmilf has a problem identifying the differences between aluminum salts and aluminum , however, you ,and many others,seem to accept the FACT that ethylmercury in vaccines has only been compared in risk assessment to methylmercury. Where is your science. There is NO reason other than cost effectiveness to put either thimerosal or phenol in any vaccine. This is one area that can be fixed easily, as it is unacceptable!
for the 1990s from the Food and Drug Administration, contains 460 reports of children who died within three days of receiving shots containing DTP” maybe it’s time to look into phenol?
Once again Sandy, you never answered my question? What is your exact motivation for defending vaccinations so much? You do not need to be a member to access any of Dr. Moulden’s information. The member login in is to allow information to be forwarded to your email if you would desire. I.E. upcoming seminars, radio interviews etc. Regarding the sale of DVDs…the “Tolerance Lost” DVD, contains 3 DVDS, each 2 hrs long. That is 6 hrs of information. Dr. Moulden is giving you all of the information he has compiled to date into these 3 cds. Allow me to review, Dr. Moulden pursued his undergraduate degree in Biological Psychology from MacMaster’s Univ. = 4 yrs, correct? He went on to earn his Masters degree in Childhood Development. = 2 more yrs minimum, correct? His Masters Thesis was on Language development in Children. He went on to earn his PHD in Clinical Neurol Psychology = 8.2 yrs total to obtain on ave. He did a sub-specialization in Cognitive Neuro Science. His PHD thesis was Neuro Physiology/Electro Physiology. His PHD comprehensive exams were in Acquired Brain injuries & post concussion injuries. Frustrated by his inability to conclude what was causing brain disorders in a vast amount of individuals during his clinical training…he decided to go back to Medical School as an undergraduate = 4yrs as an undergraduate, plus 4 more years of medical school, with 3-8 years internship and residency? So, he completed approximately, 20 plus years of elite education. His “Tolerance Lost” cds cost, $45.00. Let’s do some math together….how much do you think 20+ yrs of elite education would cost? I’m not exactly sure, but I’m sure it is significantly more than $45.00/cd for the summary of his entire academic career and findings. Yet, the fact that someone would receive any kind of profit seems to eat away at you, well, how about your “Vaccine Spokesperson,” Dr. Paul Offit for Profit? His patent of the Roto-virus vaccine, neatly pocketed him an estimated $29 million. It was pulled off of the market in 1998 due to findings it caused “intestinal blockage.” 52 babies died immediately after receving the Roto-Virus vaccine, which were conveniently labeled as SIDS. No further investigation was done? If this is your spokeperson for pro-vaccinations, I question your attack of Dr. Moulden and is $45 CDS for his life’s work? Oh Yeah, you didn’t like the fact that he “unbuttoned” the top 2 buttons of his shirt? I haven’t read the medical journals regarding an unbuttoned shirt and the correlation between lack of knowledge… have they published these findings yet? I’ll even go so far as to offer to buy you “Tolerance Lost,” if I thought you would take the time to carefully listen and watch it. I encourage you to contact him to request & read his manuscript written in 2001, “A Microvascular hypoxia account of neurodevelopmental disorders & psychosis.” He submitted the manuscript to the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario out of the concern for public safety. These were his immediate supervisors and they responded by saying that they were not qualified to comment on his findings? With the Pharmaceutical companies controlling what is published in the medical journals how do you possibly justify how or why any
Anti-vaccine findings would be available for the masses to read? You mentioned that your husband suffered a stroke? I truely hope he was able to rebound from it, and recover. Instead of arguing, wouldn’t you find it helpful to research the people responsible for finding not only the link between why these strokes/reactions are happening, but also use their wisdom that is helping countless individuals improve after the damage? I challenge you to find any group or individual involved in the questioning of or even the anti-vaccine groups, not 100% dedicated to improving the life of those harmed by our current medial system. Can you say the same for your pro-vaccine mentors? I’m unclear as to anything Paul Offit has done to encourage or to fund research linked to Autism, or it’s spectrum of disorders. Why not? $$$$$$$$$ ??? Listen Sandy, I’ve taken enough time away from my beautiful and healthy 3 yr old triplets for one day, trying to get you and others to cross over from the “dark side.” You never did answer what your motivation has been for defending the pro-vaccine side. What exactly is that, anyway?
I am not an employee of Dr. Moulden’s. I receive no profit for my “attempts” at reaching others. I’m a mother who gave birth to triplets at the age of 40, and was unsure what to do about vaccinations. I thank God, everyday that a very good friend contacted me out of the blue and handed me Dr. Robert Mendleson’s book. After reading it and researching further, I knew vaccines were not safe. I went to a lecture of Dr. Moulden’s in Aug. and was truely inspired. I challenge anyone to come up with any counter arguments to his findings. So, if you want me to buy and send you the $45 cd, and you promise me you and your husband will carefully listen to the entire thing, let me know. I will give you my contact info if you want the cd. With that being said, back to raising 3 yr old, healthy and brilliant triplets! Later!
Again tripmilf43 do not mistake this as defending vaccines as it is pointing out inaccuracies. I have never once said vaccines were the right choice for everyone and I often state it is not but neither you nor I can make that choice for another. That’s something you need to accept. There is no evidence from any one yet that what happen to your child is sure to happen to mine or vice versa. My child has had MRI scans, has yours? My child has autism but he has never had a stroke. Has yours? No one asked you to comment to me but if you feel the need, you can be a little more polite about it.
My child had rotovirus, did any of your kids? It’s a nasty thing for a child to endure and many children do and have died from it. It would make more sense economy-wise not to have a vaccine to prevent it and allow the hospitals and Pharms to soak up money while your child’s in the hospital. I cant imagine why anyone would want to produce a vaccine for rotovirus which would take away those funds, and save lives. My child also had RSV, another nasty thing which also kills babies. I have to say, we practice good healthy living and have trash pick-up, too. For both rotovirus and RSV, there was no vaccine available, and there was hardly anything anyone could do to prevent my child from contracting those 2 things other than keeping is in a clean sterile room 24/7.
No one should have to pay a dime for the content of a study that was never published. That alone is a red flag to me even if it isn’t to you. Add that to an unbottoned shirt, that’s my opinion. Give up on that crossing dark side. This is reality not TV and if that’s why you’re here, you’re in the wrong place. That’s not how communication works between adult parents of disabled children. I have not tried to convince you of anything, so please respect the facts I offered and my opinion.
Sandy, I’m shocked and sad to hear your child has Autism? I was concluding that your pro vaccine responses were due to a large stock holding in a Big Pharma Corp. How do you know that your child has never suffered a stroke or strokes? Not all strokes show up on an MRI. I encourage you to look back at old photos prior to vaccines and post vaccines. Do you notice any changes to eye position, nasal folds, slack to one side of the face, mouth drooping. You may have the evidence right at your finger tips. It shocks me that a mother burden by such a situation wouldn’t at least be intrigued by Dr. Moulden’s work. Is it possible, that your child’s boughts with various viral infections were due to a compromised immune system from birth, and a hyper immune reaction to vaccines? I really thought I had spent the better part of my day trying to convince a Dr., RN, wife of a Dr., Big Pharma rep, etc….why my points should be examined. My heart feels completely empty to hear that I’ve been banging my head against the concrete with a parent who’s child could be helped by the very people I’ve mentioned. Shame on you.
Trip, you obviously have strong feelings, but the reality is that:
(1) Dr. Moulden and Dr. Mercola are very questionable sources, and as an About.com health writer I would never rely on their statements without doing extensive additional research;
(2) There is no way to KNOW whether one thing or another did NOT have an impact on a person (unless there’s a clear cut medical test to implement). The “how do you know XYZ did NOT impact your child” is similar to saying “how do you KNOW that UFO’s didn’t land in your yard last night?” Obviously, you can’t absolutely rule out the UFO’s (especially invisible noiseless ones) — but the fact that you can’t absolutely rule them out doesn’t mean they were there!
When you say “shame on you” to a person who has actually done the research, had her child tested, and made intelligent choices based on the evidence, you’re creating yet another rift within the autism community. If you care to believe that there’s a conspiracy to injure your child that’s fine — but to directly insult another community member is mean spirited.
Lisa (autism guide)
Is it because some of what I’ve said makes sense to why you’re so offensive? How do you even know what vaccines if any my child has had? How inconsiderate and judgemental of you to insinuate that I am not helping my child regardless of what you believe in? You have not asked my sons diagnosis, onset age, age now or progress, and what I have provided for him either. How judgemental of you to assume I wouldn’t know if my child had a stroke or not? Of course strokes don’t all show up on an MRI, that’s why that theory works so well, isn’t that how most of these autism theories work?? If you’re expecting me to convince you of my child’s health just so you can argue it, you are wasting your time and hardly contributing functional conversation. I’m sure you’re doing the best for your children and I have not question that of you. You have no right to question anyone else in that manner.
You’re wasting time if your motive is to convince anyone that your opinion is the correct one without knowing any medical history of a child you do not know.
This topic was about Wakefield. Not Moulden nor me.
Also, if a child is exposed to RSV and rotovirus, no immune system is going to ward it off. You have to understand how the virus works and why it effects small children as it does and not adults, who also contract the same 2 things.
Since your motive is clear, you can find some one to offend other than me.
Tripmilf, you offer some very sound information,I appreciate the time you spent researching and posting this for us. Everyone, regardless of education, that has produced evidence that these vaccines cause harm ,has been dismissed by Sandy and some others. In looking back through photos of my kawasaki girl today, I see a slightly drooping eye, I never thought about affects on her brain, the focus of concern was her heart, however, she is not the same after that shot, she’s very ocd, impulsive and short fused. She has been diagnosed by Grace Ziem as chemically sensitive and has fibromyalgia. The presence of phenol cleaners raises her body temperature to that of a fever. I know it seems I’m moving away from the topic at hand, autism, but I’m thinking now, “maybe not”.
I am just appalled at how people can sit and attack one another for a difference in ones theory of what causes autism. Being a parent and having my own opinion as to what the cause for my own child wouldn’t sit and try to change another parent’s view. I own my own list serve and have seen it over and over. If you don’t agree you are sitting there listening to their opinon being shoved down another’s throat. It’s one thing to discuss the reasons of an opinion, but to say “shame on you” for having a difference of opinion is so totally uncalled for. It’s judgmental and questioning ones parenting for a different belief. I don’t recall seeing anything said in Sandy’s post questioning ones parenting just voicing her opinion and stating the facts that she has on her own reasons of belief. This is what exactly divides the autism community.
BarbaraJ, thanks for the email. I appreciate that you have put your EGO aside to focus on helping your daughter heal. I’m still in a state of shock that Sandy actally has a child who has problems, but keeps defending the very people who caused them?
Maybe it is the only way some people can live with the outcome of their choices? Take care, and good luck to you and you family!
tripmilf43 there can be many causes to autism not just one. It’s unfair to judge one when one doesn’t really know the exact cause. There are children who never had a shot and still have autism. I know a few of them.
Hasn’t anyone been listening? My frustration and direct comments to Sandy, are based on the tired rant that everyone is entitled to their beliefs regarding Autism. If someone told you the world was flat, would you defend them and say they are entitled to that inaccurate statement? Of course not! The world is not flat, and no you can’t have that belief, because, I can prove to you it is not flat! Well, the same goes for damage from vaccines. If a Dr. can provide proof, of a harmful effect to the human body directly following a vaccination…what more does it take to question their safety? One more time….very specific cranial nerves, and only those nerves are responsible for changes in eye movement, nasal fold symmetry and mouth drooping. If damage to these nerves occurs in the brain, it can be recorded on photos and video exactly what is going on in the brain. The cranial nerves specific to eye movement, move the eyes in a “yoke” type movement. If it can be measured and documented that following a vaccine, a baby, toddler, teen or adult has one eye turned inward, when the other is not, blinks out of sync, has one eye that moves slower than another when asked to look from side to side, this is ONLY A RESULT of a stroke/damage to that specific set of cranial nerves. There is no other medical cause for it. I don’t need anymore proof. If my child demonstrated stroke symptoms after eating a banana and a Dr. could prove this to me, with a measurable diagnose that I could see for my own eyes, I wouldn’t keep giving my kid bananas. How tough is this! So be nice all you want, but if my blogs and comments ignite the fire in the “Sandy’s” of the world to study Dr. Moulden’s works for themselves, then it was well worth their “compromised” feelings wasn’t it.
Momof3,I understand what everyone is saying, but when someone,such as Healy is willing to admit to this subset, it shouldn’t be negated. If those that understand the process better than we do owns up to this , it imo is a huge admission. Now is that subset 5%, is it 15% , we don’t have any way of knowing but it represents thousands of minds that with research may be saved. Today with the restart of stem cell research, even that using our own stem cells, we could open a path toward regeneration, however , we may well need to know the cause first. We can’t fix something if it’s set up for reinjury. If indeed it’s a virus we can kill it. If it’s a metal we can chelate. We really do need to know, and denying possibilities isn’t a method to force research in the proper direction. We know so much about measles, we know that it’s a cofacter in many lung cancers, it factors into MS, and we deliver it via a jab , in live form into our children, just this may be a starting point. We know that aluminum enhances the viral portion of the shote for a better response, we know that thimerosal in itself causes brain damage in high enough doses, we know that phenol is a poison as well, there are many, many toxins that need to be considered, we need safer vaccines, we can’t call 1 out of 66 boys collateral damage and accept it.
I do not recall me stating what my opinion on the subject is so there for providing me with info doesn’t matter, I may agree or disagree.I was making the statment that there can be many causes to autism not just one and I don’t recall sandy making any statments against anyone in reguards to parenting!!! This also proves of how info is shoved on to others with difference in opinion!!!
Folks, I appreciate that there are differences of opinion, but this thread is becoming hurtful. I will have to ask that we end this conversation now. I’ll be deleting further posts on this thread.
Thank you,
Lisa (autism guide)
Such an inclusion strategy helps to shift the responsibility for preventing problems away from professionals and agencies to the youth themselves becoming responsible for decisions that affect their lives. ,
Your disagreement should be couched in terms of proposed policies that divide people into groups according to age and determine how people should be treated in part according to their group status. ,